Help me with a Blackguard

[facesmash]

Hey all, I am here to enlist your aid!

I am thinking of playing a blackguard, with majority levels in blackguard. Are there any builds that people have in their pocket that are good? I'm not sure how up to date cookie-cutter is anymore, so figured I'd take it here and see what the people have to say. Race would be Drow, so keep that in mind.

As far as weapons I'm not sure. I know STR is the default go to, but would a dual wield dex based blackguard be any good? I'm open to all suggestions.

Thanks!

[CptJonas]

Literaly one post before you we talk about it
But personaly...
I would go with PDK levels...you go tanky...Guard your summon...and buff him thro PDK skills and BG skills...you work like buffer tank and WM duo...

[Dr. B]

Dual-Wielding Dex Based Blackguard

Race: Human
Alignment: Lawful Evil

Str 13
Dex 18 (16 + gift) (26)
Con 12
Wis 8
Int 13
Cha 16 (14 + gift)

1. Ftr (1) Ambidexterity, Weapon Finesse, Expertise
2. Ftr (2) Two-Weapon fighting
3. Ftr (3) Weapon Focus: Polearm (Your main weapon is a quarterstaff)
4. Ftr (4) Weapon Specialization: Polearm, +1 dex (dex=19)
5. Ftr (5)
6. Ftr (6) Power Attack, Improved Expertise
7. Blackguard (1)
8. Blackguard (2) +1 dex (dex=20), {Dark Blessing}
9. Blackguard (3) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Blackguard (4)
11. Blackguard (5)
12. Blackguard (6) Improved Critical: Polearm, +1 dex (dex=21)
13. Blackguard (7)
14. Blackguard (8)
15. Blackguard (9) Divine Might
16. Blackguard (10) +1 dex (dex=22)
17. Ftr (7)
18. Ftr (8) Blind Fight, Divine Shield
19. Ftr (9)
20. Ftr (10) Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, +1 dex (dex=23)
21. Blackguard (11) Epic Weapon Focus: Polearm
22. Blackguard (12)
23. Blackguard (13) Armor Skin
24. Blackguard (14) Great Dexterity I, +1 dex (dex=25)
25. Monk (1) {Evasion, Flurry of Blows}
26. Monk (2)
27. Monk (3) [Maximize Tumble, and also Hide/MS if you want them] Epic Prowess or Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
28. Blackguard (15) +1 dex (dex=26)
29. Blackguard (16) Epic Fiendish Servant
30. Ftr (11) Epic Weapon Spec: Quarterstaff

A suboptimal, but very reliable build with both respectable defense and offense. You gear for dexterity and charisma. The former gives you a high attack bonus and AC through Weapon Finesse and your dodge-bonus to AC, while the latter gives more more damage and AC through Divine Might and Divine Shield. Monk APR bonuses apply to your quarterstaff, along with bonus attacks from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, allowing you to achieve a full 10 attacks per round when hasted and with Flurry of Blows Mode active. Not only that, but you get an extra +5d6 Sneak Attack damage from your 16 Blackguard levels. You also have high saving throws thanks to your charisma and the Blackguard's Dark Blessing feat.

Not only that, but you get to tote around a Pit Fiend General. Send him out to distract your foes, then come in and clean them up with a combo of Flurry of Blows + Haste + Divine Might + Blackguard Sneak Attacks.

[AstralUniverse]

saying 12 con and 'very reliable' in the same context... seems questionable.

13 int on a drow will not net you enough skill points for discipline, heal, lore and tumble. That, or you'll have 10 con.

Go str, drop the monk, take bard.

And here's also a pdk build...

Drow
STR: 16 (24)
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 16

01: Bard(1): skill focus: discipline
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): power attack
04: Purple Dragon Knight(1): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Purple Dragon Knight(2)
06: Purple Dragon Knight(3): weapon focus
07: Purple Dragon Knight(4)
08: Blackguard(1): STR+1, (STR=18),
09: Blackguard(2): expertise, {Smite Good}
10: Blackguard(3)
11: Blackguard(4)
12: Blackguard(5): STR+1, divine shield, (STR=19)
13: Blackguard(6)
14: Blackguard(7)
15: Blackguard(8): divine might
16: Blackguard(9): STR+1, (STR=20)
17: Blackguard(10)
18: Purple Dragon Knight(5): blind fight,
19: Purple Dragon Knight(6)
20: Purple Dragon Knight(7): STR+1, (STR=21)
21: Blackguard(11): epic weapon focus,
22: Blackguard(12)
23: Blackguard(13): armor skin
24: Blackguard(14): STR+1, improved critical, (STR=22)
25: Blackguard(15)
26: Blackguard(16): epic fiendish servant
27: Purple Dragon Knight(8): great strength I, (STR=23),
28: Purple Dragon Knight(9): STR+1, (STR=24)
29: Purple Dragon Knight(10)
30: Bard(4): Free (improved expertise, epic skill lore)

EDIT: on a second thought, should replace bard with rogue for more sneak damage and evasion. Better than spellcraft but it means greater magic weapon scrolls and basic bard spells are not accessible for the early levels struggle.

[Dr. B]

The OP asked for a dex-based dual wielding BG. Give them a better alternative if you don't think mine is reliable.

Also, I didn't notice the drow requirements at first. Doing this as a drow would be difficult because you need a lot of available feats for two weapon fighting and the blackguard divine feats, and humans get an extra feat. If you want to play this as a dual-wielding drow you will probably need to play some combinations of monk/ranger/bg for the free two weapon fighting feats and the extra attacks using a quarterstaff (otherwise the damage will be bad), and may need to give up Epic Fiendish Servant depending how heavily you want to invest in monk (3 levels for the extra attacks, 6 levels if you want free Improved Knockdown).

Just trying to give you a build that does what you asked for!

[AstralUniverse]

The OP asked for a dex-based dual wielding BG. Give them a better alternative if you don't think mine is reliable.

There is no dex based build for this that isnt a complete disaster and doomed to suffer.

If you want to play this as a dual-wielding drow you will probably need to play some combinations of monk/ranger/bg for the free two weapon fighting feats and the extra attacks using a quarterstaff (otherwise the damage will be bad), and may need to give up Epic Fiendish Servant depending how heavily you want to invest in monk (3 levels for the extra attacks, 6 levels if you want free Improved Knockdown).

This is a terrible advice and I will explain.

1. If you start ranger you need to start 11+ wisdom. It's already tight on ability score so starting 11 wisdom will cripple the character beyond the realms of sense.

2. Your build is made for human. As a drow you would have either LESS skill points or less con, both of which are already bad enough on your build. It would make it unfunctional entirely and you miss crucial feats and skills.

3. You cant go around telling people to not take Epic Fiendish Servant, for any reason what so ever, on a build with majority BG lvls.

4. Dex BG is bad. Period. There are rare occasions in which a dip of divine class can be fun and not terrible on a dex build but that goes entirely out the window with majority bg lvls build in mind. There's absolutely no reason to go dex over strength.

[Archnon]

4. Dex BG is bad. Period. There are rare occasions in which a dip of divine class can be fun and not terrible on a dex build but that goes entirely out the window with majority bg lvls build in mind. There's absolutely no reason to go dex over strength.

I've been thinking about this too. Pondering a 8-Ranger, 6-Monk, 16-BG dex based build. I'm wondering why your stance is so strong. Basically, you need to be able to tank a bit and draw fire away from the summons. Ranger/Monk combo can hit some pretty good AC stats, even more when you toss in imp expertise.

I've also wanted to try the PDK build but i just can't figure out how to take a 4 level starting class and then produce a viable tank. Rogue or Barbarian makes the most sense, but Barbarian locks you into neutral or chaotic. Chaotic is no good if you are the one doing the guarding. You waste that biteback.

[AstralUniverse]

I've been thinking about this too. Pondering a 8-Ranger, 6-Monk, 16-BG dex based build. I'm wondering why your stance is so strong.

Simply because there's not enough attribute points. You need 13 strength, 14 int and that's already meh on a drow, 16 charisma, and you cant take major gifts. You dont have enough feats as a ranger to afford all the essential combat feats you will need to make this work. You also dont get improved two-weapon fighting as a ranger for free until lvl 9, so that's your 6th monk lvl gone and your knockdown along with it. You're not hitting very good ac with 8 wisdom until you get really good gear late game so good luck getting there. As far as I know there's no way to make the summon guard you so I'd really prefer the full plate. The reason strength is better: You dont need 13 dex, like you would need 13 str on a dex build. It makes the difference here in terms of your constitution and int mostly and those things are very important right now.

[Dr. B]

1. You can start out as a monk. You don't need 11 wisdom if you do that.

2. You can go Ranger 10/Monk4/BG 16, with your primary stat in dex and secondary stat in charisma. This gives you two weapon fighting feats for free, along with blackguard sneak attack, monk UBAB, Divine Might, Divine Shield, and high AC from a combination of Divine Shield and Dodge AC. Paired with your fiend you'll do quite well. Con is where you'll have to sacrifice points but you make up for it with good AC and offense. The build is not optimal, but it's quite playable.

3. Advising the OP that he might have to sacrifice Epic Fiendish servant was if he was willing to play a BG dip. He could, for instance, go 21 Ranger/6 Monk/4 BG Monk if he wants to postpone Monk levels to epic levels.

4. Dex BG builds are not as good as the strength builds, but if the OP *wants* to play it and is okay with having low HP, this can be a very fun build.

[a shrouded figure]

Here's some of my ideas- Goal being:

1.) Reasonable time leveling.
2.) Majority Blackguard
3.) Make a Human because ... ugh Drow are such a headache to build around


I really wanted to build this as 11 Bard / 19 BG with Curse Song but I wasn't very happy with the feats at the end of the day so I decided to build with fighter. I think if I actually build this I'll end up going 11/19 Ba/Bg and drop spell focii for the circlet of corruption and just make due without GSF. The nice part of 11 Bard vs this build is that you make it into the "real" song range for bard and curse (barely) as well as gain access to your own Haste and Improved Invis which is always handy.


Bard(5), Blackguard(19), Fighter(6), Human

STR: 18 (26) - Gift
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 17 (18) - Gift

Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Fighter(1): Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Expertise
02: Fighter(2): Improved Expertise
03: Fighter(3): Blind Fight
04: Bard(1): CHA+1, (CHA=18)
05: Bard(2)
06: Bard(3): Spell Focus: Conjuration
07: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
08: Fighter(5): STR+1, (STR=19)
09: Bard(4): Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
10: Blackguard(1)
11: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
12: Blackguard(3): STR+1, Divine Might, (STR=20)
13: Blackguard(4)
14: Blackguard(5)
15: Blackguard(6): Divine Shield
16: Blackguard(7): STR+1, (STR=21)
17: Blackguard(8)
18: Blackguard(9): Extra Turning
19: Blackguard(10)
20: Fighter(6): STR+1, Knockdown, (STR=22)
21: Blackguard(11): Epic Weapon Focus
22: Blackguard(12)
23: Blackguard(13): Armor Skin
24: Blackguard(14): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=24)
25: Blackguard(15)
26: Blackguard(16): Epic Fiendish Servant
27: Blackguard(17): Great Strength II, (STR=25)
28: Blackguard(18): STR+1, (STR=26)
29: Blackguard(19): Epic Prowess
30: Bard(5): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline



Hitpoints: 340
Skillpoints: 175
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/17/17
Saving Throw bonuses:
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 36 (melee), 24 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 11/22
Spell Casting: Bard(2)
Alignment Changes: 0

remaining skillpoints 175

9 Epic Caster Level + SF:Conj + GSF: Conj = A pretty badass pet summon

[Archnon]

An attempt at a monk-ranger dual wield dexer. With Haste/Barkskin/Shield you hit around 58 AC before expertise and D. Shield. Your divine stuff only lasts around 30 seconds and you have to gear for it to get the +12 charisma.... Basically you are gearing all Dex/Wis/Charisma. I did make room for one GSF though for ABJ or Trans for QOL.

Overall the build is spread really really thin given that and your health will be pretty low. Finally, you don't get uncanny dodge until the very end. I think it will be easy to level low with the monk AC bonus but get consistently harder.

A strength based sword and board would land at around 51 AC before Imp Exp and D Shield. Your damage would be way higher though and you could actually invest in D. Shield and if you go heavy ranger with a COT dip you could do a fancy +4 spear and shield or switch to a twohander. However, here it is as a Human:

Str - 14
Dex -16+2 (25)
Con - 10
Wis 12+2
Int 14
Char - 10

33 Disc, 30 Tumble, 30 Lore, 20 Heal, 30 Bluff, 29 remaining.

1 Monk Expertise, 1-h Edge
2 Monk
3 Monk Finesse
4 Ranger Two-Weapon Feats
5 Ranger
6 Ranger Power Attack
7 Ranger
8 BG
9 BG SF Trans/SF Abj
10 BG
11 BG
12 BG(5) D Might
13 BG
14 BG
15 BG D Shield
16 BG
17 BG(10)
18 Monk Blind Fight
19 Ranger (5) GSF trans/GSF Abj
20 Ranger

21 BG Imp Critical
22 BG
23 BG (13) Armor Skin
24 BG
25 BG
26 BG (16) Fiend
27 Monk Imp Expertise
28 Monk
29 Ranger
30 Ranger Blinding Speed,Uncanny Dodge

[Dr. B]

Why go one-handed edged? A quarterstaff is best for monk UBAB. I'd pick up those weapon focus feats in polearm. Otherwise the build looks fine. Abj focus might be better than trans. You can use it to withstand IGMS using a shield potion, which will be helpful given your low HP. Then again, trans has the nice benefit of adding to your ability-boosting spells.

I would replace Blinding Speed with either Epic Prowess or Epic Skill Focus: Discipline. You might also drop the spell focus feats to get some of those combat feats in pre-Epic, for more Epic feats.

[a shrouded figure]

Ultimate Fiendish Servant? Maybe? I'm going to play around with a Drow build next... wish me luck.

Bard(11), Blackguard(19), Human

STR: 18 (24)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 17 (18)

Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Bard(1): Power Attack, Curse Song
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Expertise
04: Bard(4): CHA+1, (CHA=18)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Spell Focus: Conjuration
07: Bard(7)
08: Bard(8): STR+1, (STR=19)
09: Blackguard(1): Weapon Focus
10: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
11: Blackguard(3)
12: Blackguard(4): STR+1, Divine Might, (STR=20)
13: Blackguard(5)
14: Blackguard(6)
15: Blackguard(7): Extra Turning
16: Blackguard(8): STR+1, (STR=21)
17: Blackguard(9)
18: Blackguard(10): Blind Fight
19: Bard(9)
20: Bard(10): STR+1, (STR=22)
21: Blackguard(11): Divine Shield
22: Blackguard(12)
23: Blackguard(13): Epic Weapon Focus
24: Blackguard(14): STR+1, Improved Expertise, (STR=23)
25: Blackguard(15)
26: Blackguard(16): Epic Fiendish Servant
27: Blackguard(17): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
28: Blackguard(18): STR+1, (STR=24)
29: Blackguard(19): Armor Skin
30: Bard(11): Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration

Hitpoints: 316
Skillpoints: 193
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 21/18/18
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +6
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 32 (melee), 21 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 17/28
Spell Casting: Bard(4)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 33(50), Heal 33(32), Lore 33(46), Perform 20(24), Spellcraft 32(34), Tumble 30(29), remaining skillpoints 12

[a shrouded figure]

I mean... It's not "good"... but it would certainly work as a dex-drow-blackguard

Rogue(5), Blackguard(17), Fighter(8), Drow

STR: 13
DEX: 18 (26)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 15 (16)


01: Rogue(1): Ambidexterity
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Two-Weapon Fighting, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Fighter(1): CHA+1, Weapon Focus, (CHA=16)
05: Fighter(2): Power Attack
06: Fighter(3): Expertise
07: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
08: Blackguard(1): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
09: Blackguard(2): Blind Fight, {Smite Good}
10: Blackguard(3)
11: Blackguard(4)
12: Blackguard(5): DEX+1, Divine Might, (DEX=20)
13: Blackguard(6)
14: Blackguard(7)
15: Blackguard(8): Divine Shield
16: Blackguard(9): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
17: Blackguard(10)
18: Fighter(5): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
19: Fighter(6): Knockdown (or Improved Critical)
20: Fighter(7): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
21: Blackguard(11): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=23)
22: Blackguard(12)
23: Blackguard(13): Epic Weapon Focus
24: Blackguard(14): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=25)
25: Blackguard(15)
26: Blackguard(16): Epic Fiendish Servant
27: Fighter(8): Armor Skin, Epic Weapon Specialization
28: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Rogue(5)
30: Blackguard(17): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline


Hitpoints: 310
Skillpoints: 180
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/13/24
Saving Throw bonuses:
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 28 (melee), 32 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 26/30
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 33(44), Heal 33(32), Lore 33(35), Tumble 30(38), remaining skillpoints 51

[facesmash]

Thanks all! Gives me enough to work with and tinker some. I appreciate all the insight.

[The1Kobra]

I've been sitting on a BG build, though I'd been using a slightly adjusted one. It starts off kinda slow but since it gets Crit immunity it's incredibly tanky once you get the crit immunity. The AB is a bit lower than most BG builds but you can opt to use a two-handed weapon to compensate. Though if you do go that route I'd recommend grabbing exotic prof so you can use bastard sword+shield if you need even more defense.

4/10/16 Bard/PM/BG
Assuming Human

STR: 15 (17 From gift)
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 16 (18 from Gift)

I'd probably grab Warlock just for funsies, but it's not that big of a deal

1: Bard - Power Attack, Blind Fight
2: Bard
3: Bard - Weapon Focus
4: Pale Master
5: Pale Master
6: Pale Master - Expertise
7: Pale Master
8: Pale Master
9: Pale Master - Knockdown
10: Bard
11: Blackguard
12: Blackguard - IMPR Crit
13: Blackguard
14: Blackguard
15: Blackguard - Divine Shield
16: Blackguard
17: Blackguard
18: Blackguard - Divine Might
19: Blackguard
20: Blackguard
21: Blackguard - Epic Weapon Focus
22: Blackguard
23: Blackguard - Armor Skin
24: Pale Master - Epic Prowess
25: Pale Master
26: Pale Master
27: Blackguard - Great STR 1
28: Blackguard
29: Pale Master
30: Blackguard - Epic Fiend, Great STR 2

Great STR feats can be swapped out to other epic feats like epic disc if wanted.