Improved expertise?

[Wethrinea]

I have a level 13 str based ranger that have two feats left to spare. WF, Imp crit, blind fight, expertise and IKD are all covered, and I am considering beefing up his lackluster saves with feats. But then i read in every single cookie cutter build that you should take improved expertise, and as early as possible by the looks of it. While I like expertise, trading 10 AB for 10 AC seem excessive. Is it necessary for mainly PvE oriented character?

Granted, this is my highest level character, so i have no idea what normal AC rates at later levels look like. At the moment he can gear and potion himself to 37/41 w/wo haste.

[Lost in the dark]

For a QOL perspective I would 100% recommend improved expertise. When you are getting battered it will buy you valuable time to either patch up or move somewhere less dangerous. It's definitely not one to have active all the time but for me just having that option has saved many, many deaths!

[Shadowy Reality]

General rule of the thumb is, always take Improved Expertise on any melee build you have. It depends on the kind of PvE you will be doing, and how. Take for instance the orcs in Sibayad, which are late teens, early epics, 37/41 will not cut it and you will probably be killed very fast, it gets worse for the harder epic dungeons.

I can tell you the cookie cutter weaponmaster, which is a baseline for many things reaches, with buffs, around 46 AC before haste and improved expertise and this is not considered a high AC.

If you are usually tanking for your parties, definitely take Improved Expertise. Even if you are not, Improved Expertise can be very useful when the situations goes down south and you suddenly need to just survive for some seconds. Those extra 10 AC, coupled with concealment really go a long way to keep you alive.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Improved Expertise is a survival button, not an always on button. +10 AC is 50% less of a chance to be hit, assuming your foes need to roll between a 1-20 to actually hit you and that their AB doesn't so far outstrip your AC that they're only missing on ones. If an opponent needs a 10 to hit you, they now need a 20. You already have Expertise, so in this case it goes from needing a 10 to a 15 or a 15 to a 20. That's still a 25% extra chance to not get hit.

As others have said, when things get hairy (like the primary party tank/summon dropping), that's huge. That's stand still and spam heal kits back up to full health huge while the rest of your party scrambles to return to the status quo.

The only time not taking IE on a melee build is advisable, IMO, is if you've completely dedicated yourself to having garbage AC (either for RP reasons or for making some incredibly niche spike-damage-per-round build,) in which case you should be focusing on further damage feats to allow you to decrease your Time-To-Kill, making you more likely to survive than if you went from having say 30 AC to 40 AC. At that point your AC is already going to be mostly irrelevant in epic level PvE content and you're wasting the feats.

Do you have any idea what your AC numbers will look like at epic levels?

[Wethrinea]

Since I'm not familiar with high end gear, I don't know what his end AC will be, depending on wether he goes with monk or rogue dip in epic levels. He has 14 each of base dex and wisdom. But his armour will either be the +4 ranger shirt or +6 studded. He has polearm focus, so both spear n' board, TWF stick and two-handed glaive are weapon options.

What I am concerned about is lowering AB too much with imp expertise, but it is perhaps possible to chose which one to use? Or does imp exp replace expertise as I assume it will?

[Shadowy Reality]

You get the choice, you can use Expertise or Improved Expertise, which is incredibly useful depending on what you are fighting.

As for AC, math usually goes like this
10 Base + 2 Armor Skin + 6 Tumble + 4 Shield Potion + 1 Boots + 4 Barkskin + 1 Mage Armor = 28
From here you add shield and armor + dex, so assuming ranger shirt and shield thats
28 + 9 Armor + 4 Dex + 6 Shield = 47

Which means you can get +10 from IE and + 4 from Haste for a total of 61, which is decent.

[Aardra]

Would you consider IE necessary for a 16 shadowdancer?

[Shadowy Reality]

Would you consider IE necessary for a 16 shadowdancer?

For PvE more or less, for PvP absolutely.

I know the Shadow can tank most things on the server but every now and then you bite more than you can chew and it dies. At this point you either run, or go into stealth and wait until you can resummon it, or you have Improved Expertise and can still kill stuff on your own.

In PvP your shadow can be simply ignored and you have to use your own AC to survive. You can actually get a respectable AC out of a shadowdancer due to the +4 from shadow evade, but to really make use of it you also need Improved Expertise.

[Biolab00]

Actually, i've not tried before but if i am able to reach AC of 65 before Expertise or Improved Expertise.
And 70AC if i turn on Expertise. Do i still require IE to make my AC hit above 75?

Though my character will likely have below subpar AB about 34 to 36AB if i were to turn on Improved Expertise.

Do i still need Improved Expertise though?

[AstralUniverse]

Actually, i've not tried before but if i am able to reach AC of 65 before Expertise or Improved Expertise.
And 70AC if i turn on Expertise. Do i still require IE to make my AC hit above 75?

Though my character will likely have below subpar AB about 34 to 36AB if i were to turn on Improved Expertise.

Do i still need Improved Expertise though?

Its not 75 ac if you're standing and spamming healing kits because you'd be flat-footed so yes, you should still take improved expertise. HOWEVER, it does truly depend on the build when it comes to such high ac. How much hp? How feat starved are you? etc etc.

[Biolab00]

Actually, i've not tried before but if i am able to reach AC of 65 before Expertise or Improved Expertise.
And 70AC if i turn on Expertise. Do i still require IE to make my AC hit above 75?

Though my character will likely have below subpar AB about 34 to 36AB if i were to turn on Improved Expertise.

Do i still need Improved Expertise though?

Its not 75 ac if you're standing and spamming healing kits because you'd be flat-footed so yes, you should still take improved expertise. HOWEVER, it does truly depend on the build when it comes to such high ac. How much hp? How feat starved are you? etc etc.

Actually, this is based on my Monk build and he's super feat starved.
The reason why i'm hesitating on the Expertise and IE is because it will affect whether i should take Great Dex or not and that will result in my AC going to 64(hasted) instead of 65(hasted)
Should i sacrifice 1AC for Ex and Imp Ex?

I think it's worth the trade to take Ex and Imp Ex but when your AC borders around 65 +/-, it's usually the 1 or 2AC that kills you because most PVE content monster have AB of 42 to 46 for Epic area and when they flank you, it can goes to 48
If i were to turn on Imp EX, it's likely that i can't touch certain monster like "Fire Giant Chieftain, for example" and there's no way to activate Ex or IE when facing epic bosses because 46AB only gives you a very slight chance to hit them, once you go Expertise, you will likely need to roll a natural 20 to even touch them once. Of course, drinking True strike pot is the way to go but even then, you will likely miss alot if you turn on the Improved Expertise / Expertise.

I'm quite stuck down here... Oh and my 65AC do comes with Epic Dodge.

[BaRKyy]

Do you mind telling me what build you're using that nets 75 AC with epic dodge? I'm assuming at least 18 monk and a wild-elf, or some human kensai. If it's 20+ monk remember your character sheet does not take the recent monk nerfs into account.

[AstralUniverse]

Monks swim with pre-epic feats. Its very much the opposite of ideal to be in a situation where it's either great dexterity to make the dex even or an essential combat feat which I consider on the same priority tier as blind fight and weapon focus for most melee builds. it simply creates more versatility. Sometimes you -guard someone. Sometimes there are sneaky mobs in the screen. Sometimes you spam healing kits. There are countless situations where your high ac is simply not reliable enough to save you and having improved expertise on will be the definite difference as well as just give you more purpose in a group.

[Biolab00]

Do you mind telling me what build you're using that nets 75 AC with epic dodge? I'm assuming at least 18 monk and a wild-elf, or some human kensai. If it's 20+ monk remember your character sheet does not take the recent monk nerfs into account.

Hello. I've dropped you a PM

[Biolab00]

Monks swim with pre-epic feats. Its very much the opposite of ideal to be in a situation where it's either great dexterity to make the dex even or an essential combat feat which I consider on the same priority tier as blind fight and weapon focus for most melee builds. it simply creates more versatility. Sometimes you -guard someone. Sometimes there are sneaky mobs in the screen. Sometimes you spam healing kits. There are countless situations where your high ac is simply not reliable enough to save you and having improved expertise on will be the definite difference as well as just give you more purpose in a group.

Oh yea... You do make a good point here.
There's those painful sneaky vampire thralls in Mourn manor. It make sense that i turn on Improved Expertise and make them show themselves before turning it to Expertise to jack up my AB or simply turn off entirely.

Because i invest in Listen skill rather than spot skill, i can still get sneaked attack even if I "see" them.
Good idea there. I think i should forgo the 1AC for the Exp and Improved Exp