Salvaging an Assassin

[Maladus]

Greetings! I just recently had a character de-leveled because I wasn't present for the rebuilds and now I am trying to figure out what to do with him to make him somewhat viable (read as not min-maxed but still able to get the job done) as an Assassin character. Here are the vitals.

Race: Elf
Current Class/Level: Ranger (4)
STR: 10
DEX: 17
CON: 10
WIS: 11
INT: 16
CHA: 11

01: Ranger(1): Strong Soul, Favored Enemy
02: Ranger(2)
03: Ranger(3): Dodge
04: Ranger(4), DEX +1 (18)

Bluff(3), Discipline(7), Hide(7), Listen(6), Move Silently(7), Search(7), Spot(7)

In my original concept I had him going really deep into Assassin for the flavor and some of the cookies that you get from the later levels of Assassin. The final level spread was Ranger(10)/Rogue(4)/Assassin(16). With all of the changes, I'm not sure what is the best way to proceed. I'd still like to have a majority of his levels as Assassin, but I'm not sure of the best order to take or even if Rogue is even necessary. I was hoping to build him to use Daggers to dual wield Dead Man's Cross. With all the levels in Assassin it should be feasible to get Epic Dodge by level 30 (I took some random flavor gifts so his starting DEX was fairly low. I think it would also be useful to be able to fit Lore into the build so he can use Scrolls and whatnot.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Shadowy Reality]

The 10 CL thing is only a band-aid fix from what I read. The idea is that it will eventually work as it did before. So if you don't cast, your CL is 30. Your are only level 4 and likely putting your last ranger level late in the epics, it may very well be fixed by then.

With that aside you dont really need Rogue as far as I see it. I think the most optimal way to do an assassin is fighter/rogue/assassin but if you are set on ranger then you have two options.

Take one less Rogue level and one more Assassin, that will net you an extra +1d6 damage when flanking.
Drop one Ranger level, drop Rogue and replace with 4 fighter in the epic levels. That will allow you to take Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, and Weapon Spec in fighter levels, just take the 4th fighter in a level where you get a feat so you can get Epic Weapon Spec too. This nets you an extra epic feat at loss of 2d6 damage when flanking and some skill points. Which may be useful for Epic Dexterity seeing you started with an even Dexterity score (there are 7 stat boosts).

Another side-note is that your starting stats are really, really weird, namely 11 Wisdom and 11 Charisma. If remaking is an option I definitely think you should drop these to 10 (or 8 if you are comfortable with that) and also drop Int to 14 and add those extra points to Con.

If you need a more specific break down of level ups, feats and skills just say so and I will draft something.

[Maladus]

Unfortunately I don’t think remaking is really an option at this point since I already have a lot invested in him and I’ve already been approved for the Assassin levels. I though about Fighter myself when considering what to do with him but I’m not sure the best way to sort that out at this point. If you don’t mind posting a breakdown of that I would really appreciate it.

[Dr. B]

Since you spent a feat slot on dodge, might I suggest also picking up mobility to take levels in Shadow Dancer? Otherwise that feat slot is wasted.

[Maladus]

I feel like going SD would really only beneficial for HiPS which means 5 levels while taking Fighter would grant several additional Epic Feats. I think it would be fun to have HiPS but I don't know if it's worth the additional Epic Feats. I'd be interested in seeing a build with SD though so I can view some options.

[Shadowy Reality]

Can you confirm that you have those stats at level 4? I thought you had started with 18 Dex but I see you are level 4, which may indicate you started with 17 and increased it to 18 at leve l4.

This makes a difference on whether you can easily get blinding speed in most builds or not, as it require 25 Dex.

[Maladus]

Yeah sorry, those stats were current stats. Starting stats are thus:

STR: 10
DEX: 17
CON: 10
WIS: 11
INT: 16
CHA: 11

Updated the original post with starting stats and the stat I took at level 4.

[Drowboy]

You're going to want weapon finesse unless you intend to be fully ranged.

[Shadowy Reality]

It is possible these have mistakes. I suggest you give them a spin on PGCC first just to be sure. Overall, it is your starting stats and feats that limit your options the most.

Code: Select all

Ranger10/Rogue4/Assassin16

1- Ranger1 Strong Soul
2- Ranger2
3- Ranger3 Dodge
4- Ranger4 +1 Dex
5- Rogue1
6- Rogue2  Expertise
7- Rogue3
8- Ranger5 +1 Dex
9- Ranger6 Improved Critical
10- Ass1
11- Ass2
12- Ass3 Improved Expertise +1 Dex
13- Ass4
14- Ass5
15- Ass6 Weapon Focus
16- Ass7 +1 Dex
17- Ass8
18- Ranger7 Blind Fight
19- Ranger8
20- Ranger9 +1 Dex
21- Ass9 Epic Weapon Focus
22- Ass10
23- Ass11
24- Ass12 Armor Skin / Great Dex 1 +1 Dex
25- Ass13
26- Ass14 Great Dex 1/2
27- Ass15 Blinding Speed (if took great Dex at 24) / Armor Skin / Epic Prowess
28- Ass16 +1 Dex
29- Ranger10
30- Ass17 Epic Dodge

This one either loses 1 AB or 2 AC compared to the fighter build, but it gains more Dex bonus to armours, courtesy of the Rogue levels. Gets finesse for free at level 2.

Code: Select all

Ranger10/Fighter4/Assassin16

1- Ranger1 Strong Soul
2- Ranger2
3- Ranger3 Finesse
4- Ranger4 +1 Dex
5- Ranger5
6- Ranger 6 Expertise
7- Ranger7
8- Ranger8 +1 Dex
9- Ranger9 Improved Critical
10- Ass1
11- Ass2
12- Ass3 Improved Expertise +1 Dex
13- Ass4
14- Ass5
15- Ass6 Weapon Focus
16- Ass7 +1 Dex
17- Ass8
18- Ass9 Blind Fight
19- Ass10
20- Ranger10 +1 Dex
21- Ass11 Great Dex 1
22- Ass12
23- Ass13
24- Ass14 Armor Skin, Great Dex 2, +1 Dex
25- Ass15
26- Fighter1 Epic Weapon Focus
27- Fighter2  Blinding Speed, Weapon Spec
28- Fighter3 +1 Dex
29- Fighter4 - Epic Weapon Spec
30- Ass16 Epic Dodge

Overall a fairly solid one, you have most of the feats you want, it is probably the best of the 3, but you need to delevel to level 2 and replace Dodge with Finesse.

Code: Select all

Ranger9/SD5/Assassin16

1- Ranger1 Strong Soul
2- Ranger2
3- Ranger3 Dodge
4- Ranger4 +1 Dex
5- Ranger5
6- Ranger 6 Finesse
7- Ranger7
8- Ranger8 +1 Dex
9- Ass1 Mobility
10- Ass2
11- Ass3
12- Ass4 Improved Critical+1 Dex
13- SD1
14- SD2
15- SD3 Weapon Focus
16- SD4 +1 Dex
17- Ass5
18- Ass6 Blind Fight
19- Ass7
20- Ass8 +1 Dex
21- Ass9 Epic Weapon Focus
22- Ass10
23- Ass11
24- Ass12 Armor Skin / Epic Prowess / Great Dex 1, +1 Dex
25- Ass13
26- Ass14 Great Dex 1/2
27- SD5  Blinding Speed (if took Great Dex at 24) / Epic Prowess
28- Ass15 +1 Dex
29- Ranger9
30- Ass16 Epic Dodge

In this last one the may drawback is that your ranger 9 is very late, so you will only have 1 attack in the offhand until then, also loses 1 AB or 2 AC when compared to the Fighter one. You also dont have feats for Expertise and Improved Expertise. But you have HIPS, I guess.

For skills: Disicpline, Hide, MS, UMD(only 15), Tumble. These are the essentials, from here you can add Listen, Spot, Heal, Lore, Bluff, Open Lock, etc.

[Maladus]

Thanks for working these up. The first one your level split is off at the top. It's actually Ranger7/Rogue6/Assassin17 which I wasn't sure if that was intended or not.

[Shadowy Reality]

Totally right, lost some ranger levels when I shifted some stuff.

I should not that pre-epic most things can be shifted around to whenever. After epic it is a bit tighter.

[Maladus]

Just realized you have to have 4 levels in Fighter to take Weapon Spec

[Shadowy Reality]

Ah yep.

Dont think you can fit both blinding speed and the weapon specs then. Either or. I suppose you can drop the Weapon Specs and take Epic Prowess and Armor skin. That leaves you with a free feat at level 24.

[Maladus]

Ranger10/Fighter4/Assassin16

1- Ranger1 Strong Soul
2- Ranger2
3- Ranger3 Dodge
4- Ranger4 +1 Dex
5- Ranger5
6- Ranger 6 Finesse
7- Ranger7
8- Ranger8 +1 Dex
9- Ranger9 Improved Critical
10- Ass1
11- Ass2
12- Ass3 Toughness +1 Dex
13- Ass4
14- Ass5
15- Ass6 Weapon Focus
16- Ass7 +1 Dex
17- Ass8
18- Ftr1 Blind Fight, Expertise
19- Ftr2 Improved Expertise
20- Ftr3 +1 Dex
21- Ass9 Epic Weapon Focus
22- Ass10
23- Ass11
24- Ftr4 Weapon Spec, Epic Weapon Spec, +1 Dex
25- Ass12
26- Ass13
27- Ass14 Great Dex 1, Great Dex 2
28- Ass15 +1 Dex
29- Ass16
30- Ranger10 Epic Dodge, Blinding Speed

What about this? It loses out on Epic Prowess and Armor Skin but it gets both Epic Dodge and Blinding Speed along with Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec. Somewhat of a trade-off but this build is full of those already so I think this is pretty decent.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Is ranger essential to your character concept for RP themes?

Reasoning: With your given stat block, you can gain all the two-weapon feats and then some extra with 8-10 levels of fighter - ambidexterity, TWF, and ITWF make three. With eight levels of fighter rather than nine ranger levels, you get five bonus feats (two extra to make up for lost ranger perks.)

You lose some minor ranger perks (+4 stealth in wilderness is nice for a death attack build) and some skill points, but 8 of the lost skill points can be made up by starting rogue. You can then shove a point each out of wisdom and charisma over into constitution or strength, and rely on lore for scroll buffs (specifically, you want 25 minimum so that you can use vine mine to get HiPS, but with your build going higher to 50 wouldn't be very inconvenient to snag WoF and Shadowshield), wands (15 UMD) and potions for mundane buffs that are nearly impossible/very difficult to dispel.

Edit: And if the 11 charisma is for RP reasons, you can still shove a point of wisdom over into your CHA to get an actual +1 bonus there.

[Maladus]

It’s sort of flavor for RP and sort of I really don’t want to remake him because I have a lot of time and some gear Sheas invested into him at this point. Remaking would be better mechanically but a lot worse for my sanity.