PVM mechanics and endgame numbers

[Exordius]

I never said anyone should make such a build as the one i have. And i have stated right from the start that anyone who does should understand that they are not going to be godlike or all-powerful. The build works for me and i play to have fun, trying to maximize every aspect of my character for pure mechanical power so i can rofl-stomp everyone and everything in existence in a foolish contest with the top 1% to determine who is the most powerful of them all is not fun to me.

[Biolab00]

I never said anyone should make such a build as the one i have. And i have stated right from the start that anyone who does should understand that they are not going to be godlike or all-powerful. The build works for me and i play to have fun, trying to maximize every aspect of my character for pure mechanical power so i can rofl-stomp everyone and everything in existence in a foolish contest with the top 1% to determine who is the most powerful of them all is not fun to me.

I am not being dis-respectful but this build is trash.
You are already stuck with it hence, i have nothing to say and mentioned earlier that i won't explain but have to now.

Please don't make other people even fall to this trap.

This build makes the caster fail as a Buffer since all the wards you cast on allies will be dispel easily and fail as a crowd control since your DC will be low. If you go for base 26Int and base 20Wis, your other attribute will be outrageously low.

This build isn't even touching the base line of a normal build. It's way below normal and a trash. I don't mean to be offensive but it's really trash.

I need to be hard on my wording because even a single NEW player comes and adopt your build, i swear that he will cry so much. Average and Elite player won't fall to this trap but NEW player may. Please don't make them waste their time.

[Shadowy Reality]

That is not being sold as a good build, so stop calling it a trap. That's not what a trap is.

People are free to play whatever build they want. If they have fun with a wizard15/cleric15 for instance, good for them. Mechanically speaking the build is bad, especially in PvP but even in PvE it is very subpar, but that does not mean one shouldn't make it just because of that, people just need to go into it knowing why it is bad and accept it.

IIRC in the past a very prominent player and pvper played a build with less than 20 cleric levels, it worked very well for them mostly on the fact that they knew what they were doing, knew the limits of NWN and the build. Today, that build would probably be considered very bad.

[AstralUniverse]

Mixing arcane and divine can work its just much more challenging then a pure build. The key is having contingency plans and abilities prepared so that if and when you get dispelled you can bounce back as rapidly as possible and survive long enough to do so. Having two or more of every buff and or summon is something a hybrid would be wise to do if it wants to maximize it's chances of survival in pve or pvp. Also while a straight 15/15 might sound cool its ultimately too weak... pick either wizard or cleric as your primary class and either go 18/12 or 20/10 so you get access to 9th level spells. Obviously your primary casting stat should be boosted as high as it can go, and your secondary casting stat comes in second. You wont be the most powerful or optimized build by any stretch but there are ways of making it work if you are smart and crazy prepared.

This is a huge trap. Never believe in it. I won't explain why.

Not that I'm a huge fan of such builds myself, for now, but you really shouldnt dismiss someone's opinion as a 'huge trap' but then refusing to provide with an explanation. Its not very constructive and it doesnt contribute much to the discussion. To be fair, if/when Beamdog fixes the dispel bug, playing off-casters such as spellswords and clerics with a low CL, relaying mostly on character level CL of wands/potions, is quite doable.

Also, its not like dispels exist in every dungeon. You can get away with low CL casters and I've done that before. Question is - what is the purpose? I personally dont find myself in pvp all that much so I might decide to neglect it entirely on some characters every once in a while, knowing it might be bad, but also very powerful in different situations.

If you want to dismiss someone's feedback because you claim it is "objectively wrong" or "huge trap" then please speak up your mind at the very least, so we know why you think that way.

[Biolab00]

Mixing arcane and divine can work its just much more challenging then a pure build. The key is having contingency plans and abilities prepared so that if and when you get dispelled you can bounce back as rapidly as possible and survive long enough to do so. Having two or more of every buff and or summon is something a hybrid would be wise to do if it wants to maximize it's chances of survival in pve or pvp. Also while a straight 15/15 might sound cool its ultimately too weak... pick either wizard or cleric as your primary class and either go 18/12 or 20/10 so you get access to 9th level spells. Obviously your primary casting stat should be boosted as high as it can go, and your secondary casting stat comes in second. You wont be the most powerful or optimized build by any stretch but there are ways of making it work if you are smart and crazy prepared.

This is a huge trap. Never believe in it. I won't explain why.

Not that I'm a huge fan of such builds myself, for now, but you really shouldnt dismiss someone's opinion as a 'huge trap' but then refusing to provide with an explanation. Its not very constructive and it doesnt contribute much to the discussion. To be fair, if/when Beamdog fixes the dispel bug, playing off-casters such as spellswords and clerics with a low CL, relaying mostly on character level CL of wands/potions, is quite doable.

Also, its not like dispels exist in every dungeon. You can get away with low CL casters and I've done that before. Question is - what is the purpose? I personally dont find myself in pvp all that much so I might decide to neglect it entirely on some characters every once in a while, knowing it might be bad, but also very powerful in different situations.

If you want to dismiss someone's feedback because you claim it is "objectively wrong" or "huge trap" then please speak up your mind at the very least, so we know why you think that way.

Really? Why do you even want to promote such build at all. Don't even give any chance to this kind of trash build.
I don't want to explain is so that i don't have to be so harsh.

Those who are willing to play such build, long time player, they choose to do so and they do understand the concept. For RP wise and all, it's FINE. But for a build, it's trash!

NEW player don't understand and if THEY choose this. They will only bug the DM for rebuild or they just quit Arelith altogether if they raged. Please don't at any circumstance, promote this trash build. You guys want to play it, do it quietly. Don't debate on an absolute trashy build when this forum don't need this kind of thing!
What nonsense about low CL caster level is fine, it's absolutely not fine at all when almost every decent epic dungeon have DISPELs.
You will even struggle in PVE and NEW player will just not be able to take this nonsense.

[AstralUniverse]

Those who are willing to play such build, long time player, they choose to do so and they do understand the concept. For RP wise and all, it's FINE. But for a build, it's trash!

There it is. You've explained the source of your opinion just fine here, and earlier you also said it's because of the low CL. I think we're getting somewhere.

NEW player don't understand and if THEY choose this. They will only bug the DM for rebuild or they just quit Arelith altogether if they raged. Please don't at any circumstance, promote this trash thing.

A new player that doesnt understand the concept of multi-classing and it's downsides will have terrible time on their first character(s) no matter what, at least in that mechanical aspect. If that's a cause for rage-quitting or nudging DMs for rebuilds which they wont likely get, then so be it. I can live with a few of those and I'm 100% certain its a serious minority.

I think Exordius was VERY clear about the weaknesses and downsides about playing this, so he was giving a warning. As long as such warnings are given when the build is weird, I really think we SHOULD promote weird sub optimal builds, again, as long as we are honest and knowledgeable of the weaknesses and warn about them.

[Biolab00]

Those who are willing to play such build, long time player, they choose to do so and they do understand the concept. For RP wise and all, it's FINE. But for a build, it's trash!

There it is. You've explained the source of your opinion just fine here, and earlier you also said it's because of the low CL. I think we're getting somewhere.

NEW player don't understand and if THEY choose this. They will only bug the DM for rebuild or they just quit Arelith altogether if they raged. Please don't at any circumstance, promote this trash thing.

A new player that doesnt understand the concept of multi-classing and it's downsides will have terrible time on their first character(s) no matter what, at least in that mechanical aspect. If that's a cause for rage-quitting or nudging DMs for rebuilds which they wont likely get, then so be it. I can live with a few of those and I'm 100% certain its a serious minority.

I think Exordius was VERY clear about the weaknesses and downsides about playing this, so he was giving a warning. As long as such warnings are given when the build is weird, I really think we SHOULD promote weird sub optimal builds, again, as long as we are honest and knowledgeable of the weaknesses and warn about them.

Exordius isn't being clear about the weaknesses and downsides by just saying it's "You wont be the most powerful or optimized build by any stretch but there are ways of making it work if you are smart and crazy prepared."

This statement isn't even true but much worse than that. By following a Lv18 Main caster / 12 Sub caster progression, you are likely to be the weakest caster ever with low CL in dispel [ YES, Low CL is resisting dispel AND dispeling others, you can't even do a proper dispel ! ], low CL in spell damage, low CL in everything. You must know the time it takes a player to train a character to level 30. It usually takes Months if they are new and since this build is a trash, don't even promote it.
It's really a sinful thing to make them waste so much time to build a trashy character.

Just don't promote it in anyway. It's not even worth considering for new player.
Since it's a harm, please don't by any means, ask them to try.
By saying that they don't understand the concept of multi-classing and downsides will have terrible time on their first character isn't a good reason. When this hybrid arcane / divine caster build is already a rubbish, just tell them it's a big NO.

If the build is even at least at the normal range when it's below the base line of a normal build. IF there's a pro and con, at least some pros, it's WORTH.
This build is WORTHLESS. There is no pros at all except IF you want to just play for RP and that you have a clear direction on what sort of story you want to tell.

Main caster level 18 gives you tier 9 spell.
Sub caster level 12 gives you tier 7 spell.
This build happens this way because of dweomercrafting idea of spell caster level of 12 gives 1 point.
Hence, 19 / 11 doesn't work, 17 / 13 is downright horrible.
I don't even want to imagine the horror of the CONs because there's too many to describe.

As i say, this is a HUGE trap for NEW player. You know it is bad, it's very bad, don't even promote, don't even give them the reason to try. It's horrible.
Even a pure level 30 fighter works more wonder than this trash build.

Edit : I'm really getting quite worked up for this. Please don't try to debate this build anymore. I don't want to keep on saying more negativity about the cons. There's JUST so much for me to highlight that i don't want to do it all. But please NEW player should get the idea now, if they read this post. You may sort of think why having Tier 7 as a Sub class caster is bad is practically because if your Sub caster is divine, you are mainly getting the heal & wards. Heal gives some help but wards onwards are all rubbish since it's a 100% dispel rate.
If you are getting summons to do work for you, you don't even get to enjoy Epic summon bonus and you lose at least 2 epic level feats which you may get from class if you invest more than 20 levels in it.
Ultimately, the most prominent spell in PVE is Gate and Summon Elemental IX for either divine / arcane caster and both classes have them at their Tier 9 spell. What's even the point in investing both classes.
Thinking of Epic Mummy dust? Think again! You only have 4 Epic feats to waste!
If you choose to begin the class progression as Cleric to level 12 and sub change to Wizard to take advantage of the 2 Feat at Class level 10 and Class level 15, It's still a bullshit. You will totally have insufficient feat to invest in spell focus / metamagic feat.
People consider wizard OVER sorcerer because of the extra feat and if you remove these extra feat from the equation, i'm getting off-topic here.
Okay, i have so much more to say but i will stop. Please don't make me say more. Just stop saying this build is OKAY when it's totally NOT.

[Xerah]

You know what else sends new players away?

Refusing to help someone optimize their concept because it's not top tier and acting extremely hostile towards anyone not playing that top tier.

There is really not very much you can do with an arcane/divine casters, but some people want it (sorcerer/FS is probably the best choice now) but he's right in that you should go 19/11, 17/13 or 18/12 (with sorcerer/FS). These builds are significantly bad (tier D at best) and the player may have a terrible time, but sometimes playing the character they want to play is even more important than being able so solo most content.

[Shadowy Reality]

There are many dungeons that don't have dispels. And those that do you can avoid with care (say, simply sending a summon ahead). This allows one to make terrible builds when it comes to PvP, but alright when it comes to PvE.

You can probably get a lot of mileage out of a sub 20 cleric for PvE. Say a cleric/wm/fighter or cleric/wm/rogue. Would never work for the PvP standard these days but I can see that being very good in PvE in the hands of people that know what the are doing, it definitely wouldn't be the most terrible thing.

Lower CL is not as bad as people make it when it comes to PvE.

[Biolab00]

There are many dungeons that don't have dispels. And those that do you can avoid with care (say, simply sending a summon ahead). This allows one to make terrible builds when it comes to PvP, but alright when it comes to PvE.

You can probably get a lot of mileage out of a sub 20 cleric for PvE. Say a cleric/wm/fighter or cleric/wm/rogue. Would never work for the PvP standard these days but I can see that being very good in PvE in the hands of people that know what the are doing, it definitely wouldn't be the most terrible thing.

Lower CL is not as bad as people make it when it comes to PvE.

Are you even real here? I am opposing Arcane / Divine caster and nothing of cleric/wm/fighter or cleric/wm/rogue. A main caster build is simply focus on casting, there's nothing with fighting.
What? Many dungeon don't have dispel? I am not going to spoil FOIG content.

Regarding Xerah's post, it's fine if they want to play it as a RP and like i said, if they have a story, they want to go for it, they can go.
But this forum section is " Builds & Mechanics".
At least give a proper build, this Mix Arcane / Divine caster is way below subpar and i have to hostile so that they know this is trash build. If you intend to go this route, you follow your own RP story. Don't mix in new player into this mess.

[dallion43]

Confirmation

Thank you kindly for taking your time to check it for us all.

You welcome and nothing for.


Regarding Arcane / Divine caster, and why preferably not, it is just about how you explain why preferably not.
While trash might be an optionally mechanically correct word, it is definitely unnecessary to use, especially since people stated playing it etc.

Why not just say;
Playing arcane/divine caster is only somewhat visible if you slash the caster word and use something like:
23Cler/4Pal/3Sorc.

Otherwise you probably end up with irrelevant AB(can't kill much over time), NPC dispellable AC(med lvl npc will kill you fast), low DC and caster lvl on both ends(mostly irrelevant short duration spells), low HP(easy to being killed), unable to solo PvE of any higher tier, mostly being somewhat a drag mechanically to the group you are with, unable to PvP of any kind in case of need.

Generally unless you are properly geared, know the shard mechanics in and out and have many friends to roll with, your gaming experience will probably be affected by the problems mentioned above in a hard way if you chose to play Divine/Arcane caster.

Will you will be able to play regardless? Yes. I knew a woman that refused to lvl to lvl 5 and still reigned over a big guild on the shard I played and had my total respect. Just take above into consideration.

P.C
A point can be expressed in many ways, and it is usually never good to use harsh wording if possible. This is an imho of course and not an attempt to teach anyone anything and if it seemed this way I apologize in advance.

[Biolab00]

Confirmation

Thank you kindly for taking your time to check it for us all.

You welcome and nothing for.


Regarding Arcane / Divine caster, and why preferably not, it is just about how you explain why preferably not.
While trash might be an optionally mechanically correct word, it is definitely unnecessary to use, especially since people stated playing it etc.

Why not just say;
Playing arcane/divine caster is only somewhat visible if you slash the caster word and use something like:
23Cler/4Pal/3Sorc.

Otherwise you probably end up with irrelevant AB(can't kill much over time), NPC dispellable AC(med lvl npc will kill you fast), low DC and caster lvl on both ends(mostly irrelevant short duration spells), low HP(easy to being killed), unable to solo PvE of any higher tier, mostly being somewhat a drag mechanically to the group you are with, unable to PvP of any kind in case of need.

Generally unless you are properly geared, know the shard mechanics in and out and have many friends to roll with, your gaming experience will probably be affected by the problems mentioned above in a hard way if you chose to play Divine/Arcane caster.

Will you will be able to play regardless? Yes. I knew a woman that refused to lvl to lvl 5 and still reigned over a big guild on the shard I played and had my total respect. Just take above into consideration.

P.C
A point can be expressed in many ways, and it is usually never good to use harsh wording if possible. This is an imho of course and not an attempt to teach anyone anything and if it seemed this way I apologize in advance.

I do understand your point. And i do understand the reason behind being more roundabout in the wording so that i don't demoralise people.
I also understand that there may be already people playing pure Arcane / Divine build.

But i need to really nip this idea in the bud for new people. This is truly an extremely bad build.
Xerah said it's a "Tier D" at best. But seriously, it's a Tier F for me.

I will take the concept of PVP out totally.
Just focus on PVE for Arcane / Divine build.
When i am partying with someone with this build in the past and saw them casting both Arcane and Divine spell, i will send a "Tell" to tell them not to buff me, if i were to go to a dungeon with mobs casting Greater dispel. Because these buff from the subpar caster level makes my potion / wands go from Mundane dispel check to their subpar dispel check and makes me weaker, not stronger.
There has been occasion on replying to me why, i will normally just say, i am good without buff. I do not and will not be harsh in the game because they are already so high level and it's really not good for me to say anything since they will feel it at some point in time. But for those even thinking of trying, please just don't go pure Arcane / Divine build.

If you choose to play it for RP reason and intend to make a totally weak build with the intention from the start, it's fine, you can go. But, this build truly doesn't cut even as an average build. It's not even below average but way below.

If you play in a party, your toon is a burden since most epic dungeon have dispels and you are not able to ultilise your buff, you can' do CC as well because your spell penetration check is very low. In a sense, you become the baggage in the party. Friends will take you along and won't pinpoint your build in anyway but the player themselves should feel it at this point which is generally too late if they are new and don't get the idea.
The only way that you can contribute to make use of the NPC silliness such as they usually switch attacker and stop focusing at point in time, when say, your summons flank the NPC.
Playing as a SOLO is completely non-viable for this build as well.

This build Arcane / Divine is only meant to RP because it fails, completely, utterly, as a viable build. In the process of becoming the greatest spell caster with full range of Arcane and Divine spell, you become the weakest spell caster in the truest sense.
You know the idea of jack of all trades but master of none except it's jack of all spells but master of zero.

[Exordius]

Gonna have to agree to disagree then cause it works just fine on my end.

[Biolab00]

Gonna have to agree to disagree then cause it works just fine on my end.

While it may seems like i am being a nasty person in persisting on ruining your build.
But i must be frank on this matter.
If you can't provide even a good method on how "it works just fine on my end"

Please just don't even reply in this irresponsible manner.

[AstralUniverse]

He did provide with plenty of information about how he does that and the downsides of doing that, but you refuse to listen and instead you are very insistent on responding to everyone with emotional and irrational mindset, and telling them not to respond to you back after. Just... stop please.

[Biolab00]

He did provide with plenty of information about how he does that and the downsides of doing that, but you refuse to listen and instead you are very insistent on responding to everyone with emotional and irrational mindset, and telling them not to respond to you back after. Just... stop please.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me. But i must stress once again that Arcane / Divine build is a Huge trap.
Why is it a Huge trap is because you don't feel the difference until you are nearing level 28,29 or 30.
Why is that the case?

I don't even touch PVP. Just PVE mechanic.
For a spellcaster, Spell Penetration and Dispel checks are extremely important.

Most of the general dungeon can be cleared by a spell caster with Tier 9 summons without much issue and these dungeon can easily let you train up to level 28 or even max level, if you have the time to burn.

If you were to go for any hard dungeon, say for example, abyss or baator ( I'm sorry that i have to spoil some FOIG content )
Some of the creatures have SR between 26 to 32 and usually, these creature are the most hard hitter or hard caster in the monster group. Hence, based on your Spell penetration of the highest caster level of 18, it's completely subpar and unreliable in doing anything. Taking Epic spell penetration feat isn't a solution since you're feat hungry and it's not among the feat to consider. You can't dispel anything with spell Greater Dispel based on your CL18 and Mord is a "Breach" spell for you instead of a "Greater Dispel & Breach". You really don't have so much Mord or Breach to burn.

Now, we talk about dispel check. This is the most troubling issue and the most critical part in why this build fail.
If you are taking Arcane / Divine build, you will definitely want to mix the warding of both classes on yourself or allies. But you have to understand that Arelith's Dispel mechanic uses the "LOWEST" CR of the particular spell as the indicator. What does it mean?
It means if you cast a Greater spell mantle Tier 9 with your CL18 wizard and a Regeneration spell Tier 7 with your CL12 Cleric. Your overall dispel check is based on CL12 and NOT CL18.
In short, all your buff, once it touches your lowest subclass caster level, will all be based on your subclass caster level.
I am not even exaggerating that the Greater dispel is a 100% dispel rate.

You seriously won't feel anything until you hit Epic dungeon or even some "Hard" dungeon and by then, you are already very high level. Hence, i say it's a HUGE trap. Please if you are already on Arcane or Divine route and haven't yet branch to the other class, don't do it, by any means.

Edit : In short, if you can't use the warding spell of your sub caster class, what's the point in even taking the sub caster level. The only reliable about sub class cleric is the Healing spell part. All warding are to be excluded since it will bring down your CL dispel level that even a normal Dispel Magic Tier 3 can do away your wards.
I must stress again, you will only feel the difference once you hit close to max level and the GULF is really like comparing Earth and Outer-Space [ Beyond heaven ].
I am very very appalled that no one except me, is strongly oppose to this Arcane / Divine build. It's fine if you do not oppose, but don't even encourage please. By opposing my post, it feels that you are really trying to encourage them to go this so-called "sub optimal build" when it's really beyond low class combination build.

[AstralUniverse]

I'll just... give up on this one. sigh

[Biolab00]

I'll just... give up on this one. sigh

If you give up, please don't even reply. What nonsense about plenty of information when he only type 2 general information without going in-depth of how the build works.
I don't earn anything from being the bad guy here. I'm really trying to make people avoid this horrible mistake.

Edit : I don't want to double post, hence i edit. Regarding the horrible attitude part below, i do not have to be this horrible if you guys don't keep on saying how this build somehow works someway. How can i even show that this build is horrible if i don't use this horrible attitude. After typing so much CONs about this Arcane / Divine build, do you think many people are happy? I am very unhappy to be the bad guy here and you really make it seems like i am such a horrible person. If in the first place, the bunch of you with proper build knowledge just oppose it together, i don't even have to go this extreme. Jesus!

[AstralUniverse]

This isnt about the build itself really. Your attitude is just horrible.

Let me also echo this and then I'm really done-

You know what else sends new players away?

Refusing to help someone optimize their concept because it's not top tier and acting extremely hostile towards anyone not playing that top tier.