Dispel-bait prevalence

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:06 pm

I was hoping experts could chime in.

I often float a lot of 21/4/5, 20/5/5, and 23/4/3 builds around in my own theorycrafting, but when seeking advice one of the first comments is often "dispel-bait."

I don't doubt that these builds with less than 26 or 27 CL are definitely that, but I want to know more about how this actually comes into effect in both PvP and PvE scenarios.

So a few questions.

1. Do most PvP encouters open with a big dispel? How often are dispels fired during PvP? Is it Mords-or-bust? Do people single-target dispel or target-ground?
2. Can you get through levels 1-30 doing PvE content and avoid mobs/bosses that use dispels? Does being "dispel-bait" hurt your chances in PvE / make you a liability?
3. Are there builds or gear strategies dispel-baity builds can do to make themselves more versatile?

4. As a dispeller, are you usually trying to go after particular buffs/wards? Or just a blanket "debuff"?
5. Is it better to breach-then-dispel? Or dispel-then-breach?

6. I suppose in PvP scenarios involving more than 1 or 2 on each side - a proper dispel must target the proper individual. Is the idea to go after caster-heavy classes first? Do you target high DPS builds?
7. Is a dispel only powerful in the hands of a knowledgeable/skilled player? Or should dispel-bait builds be wary of any opponent who has access to dispels?

I figured this could get the ball rolling! Sharing of mechanical knowledge is great, thanks.
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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by Dedman1234 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:30 am

First off, breaching is usually the way to go. With the recent updates to scrolls, throwing breaches around is far rarer, as it requires either a lore investment or using rare items. When it comes to dispelling... characters that are not epic abjurers pretty much cannot use dispells at all, with warlocks being probably the only exception as they can spam CL 24 dispells at will. Characters that ARE epic abjurers will be hitting you with a mord for sure, unless they feel confident enough to attempt an evocombo on you. A mord from an abjurer breaches 6 spells AND applies a CL 26 dispell on top of the breach. Really dangerous for low CL builds for sure. In summary: breaches>dispells, because most ppl don't have the CL to dispell anyone, while those that do have enough CL will be applying both breaches and dispells at the same time anyway.

When it comes to PVP against characters that are not epic abjurers, they might sometimes hit ya with a mord scroll as well, but they usually sacrificed something for the very ability to use mord scrolls. If you are a high priority target, then you might even get hit with a rod, but remember that even the rods don't have that high of a CL, so their dispell is not too dangerous for someone with a CL>20. You are in deep trouble if you encounter an epic abjurer tho. Unless you manage to be very close to them when the fight starts and kill 'em quickly, you will be rapidly stripped of most buffs, something I assume your builds are very reliant on, seeing as you got over 20 lvls of spellcaster classes.

That being the case, I once saw a very powerful spellsword build that had a total CL of 22 (24 against dispels, since it had def:abj). The fellow was capable of tearing literally anything to shreds in moments, while fully buffed, but got in serious trouble when dealing with abj mages. It could still kill them very quickly if played well, tho. I would say that trading CL for multiclassing can sometimes work, but it is risky. Then again, anything concerning PVP is. Keep in mind that overreliance on buffs can screw you over in fights that don't involve breaching or dispelling at all. PVP is usually very quick, there is rarely time to buff properly unless you happen to encounter a foe right after warding for a boss fight or are setting out with the sole purpose of killing someone. Zoo spells and the like last a long time, but many real nasty spells are rounds/CL, so it is unlikely you will be running around with them all the time. If you don't happen to be at your strongest when a fight breaks out, a mundane WM will wipe the floor with you. There is also a huge difference between having 23 ranger lvls and 23 cleric lvls. A ranger will do fine even if dispelled, as they are not very reliant on their spells. A properly dispelled cleric is usually a dead cleric.

As for PVE encounters... When I started out, I often got dispelled as a pure caster in places that were well in my level range. One cheeky weave eater targetted my poor mage with a dispel, and POOF. All my protective spells, my summon, my zoo spells gone. The trick in PVE would be to avoid being targetted in the first place, by using your summon wisely. An elemental losing buffs because of a dispell is a minor (if annoying) setback, but far less dangerous than being left with your pants down. Now, imagine not being a summoner at all and having an even lower CL. It can be seriously dangerous for such toons to visit locations with dispelling mobs, unless your character happens to be a monster even without buffs or has HIPS, which happens to be incredibly useful when dealing with mages. Dispells are avoidable, though. If you play well, doing stuff like breaking LoS with mobs you know have dispells ready and attacking them from behind a corner with a KD or something... It takes some experience to pull off properly but is definitely doable. If you traded CL for the ability to deal more damage than a roided out WM and are decent at the game, then you definitely won't be a liability.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:33 am

1. Generally, yes, if you're dealing with a mage, Mords will be one of the first few spells thrown. If you're dealing with a Warlock that knows what they're going, they're going to use Greater Dispelling a lot. They can spam it, after all. But as the previous poster mentioned, breaches are usually always better unless you're an abjurer.
2. Yeah, definitely. Leveling a spellsword right now and there's only a few mobs that do dispels. When I deal with them, I usually just haste and try to gun them down. It's annoying when they get their dispel off, though.
3. Have extra buffs on hand in the form of wands, scrolls, etc. That always helps.

4. My priority will be things like mind blank if I'm playing a mage that uses mind magic, FOM if I'm trying to hit them with Stonehold, etc. so on so forth. But a blanket dispel is helpful in itself, just to make sure your enemy is weaker if not at their weakest.
5. Both at the same time, in the form of Mords. Otherwise, a G-Abj/E-Abj Greater Dispelling works as well, and when all else fails, greater spell breach or lesser spell breach to deal with the more important breachables seen at the top of the breach list.

6. AoE Mords is the way to go normally. Failing that, a breach on the target you consider more dangerous, based on your best guestimate. If you don't have breaches, G-Abj/E-Abj G-Dispel.
7. Dispel is powerful in the hands of a character with more CL than the target. That also means abjuration focuses taken into account. Aside from clicking the target, there's little to do as far as aiming.

Hope my perspective helps.

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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by dallion43 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:06 am

All below is an imho, and you better spend time PMing Scurvy Cur for advise then read it if you ask me :p.

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......Dallion, where he went?
He had to go to the bushes.
*A very shiny presence appears* You evil! Get lost!
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GET LOST! in 30 secs!
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Thats it! I am....you are out of time! Die!!!!

If you ask me, the main problem with *temp.non_inst.high.buffed* builds is mainly above. It is the wind-up time and the duration time.

I would expect those days that everyone, including their brothers and sisters to have a stack of GS.breach scrolls. Thats -4 spells on you from this list top to bottom, shields first -> https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Breach.
If 1-2 of those scrolls used on you put your build output to sad mode and you can't recover within one round recast, then it is sad.

Mord scroll, I assume, will be a rarer sight, and will bring -6 from the list and not -4. Take 0 CL on some mag.effs in consideration when assuming mord scrolls are mainly -6.
I would safely assume in PvP one will meet displel(abj.mord) pros and one will be targeted and brought naked if possible. If you cant match CL, lower buff dependency. Build and gear to make sure you are still a presence after the mord. Gear not to +7, but to +8 or +10 main ab stat, cont secondary. Make sure your saves are adequate buff-naked. Count on weapon buffs, DS/DM, DW, BS, EMA, EXT/SUP effects etc etc. Have plenty TS.

Clerics are the most heavily affected of the dispel-bate group. build them like they have 0 dispellable buffs or just go with high CL.

-----------------------

PvE?
Don't be the tank at boss encounters. Let the mundane approach and strike first, or better, have a mundane guard you.
Summon scroll+player tool+guard/un-guard hotkeys. (preferably book of air*x in inventory, ideally air string ele scroll summon.)
Player tool is you friend. Let the eater dispel you small friend from the book. Use invis/stealth+knok/burst.dps.
Generally *Build and gear to make sure you are still a presence after the mord.* relevant in PvE too.


To sum, if I would be you I would ask for specifics on a specific *dispel-bate* build you had in mind. You will get much more relevant input then the random stuff I wrote for example.

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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:27 am

This is a lot! I probably don't count as an expert, but I lean heavily into casters and I'd say my PvP tactics allow me to not despise the thought of such happening, so, take with a grain of salt- I decided to use colored text for my answers.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:06 pm
I was hoping experts could chime in.

I often float a lot of 21/4/5, 20/5/5, and 23/4/3 builds around in my own theorycrafting, but when seeking advice one of the first comments is often "dispel-bait."

I don't doubt that these builds with less than 26 or 27 CL are definitely that, but I want to know more about how this actually comes into effect in both PvP and PvE scenarios.

So a few questions.

1. Do most PvP encouters open with a big dispel? How often are dispels fired during PvP? Is it Mords-or-bust? Do people single-target dispel or target-ground?
This is such a hugely circumstantial question. PvP doesn't occur in a vacuum- if your scenario involves fighting a fully warded group(worst-case scenario, to be sure), you're basically obligated to open up with some kind of effect-stripping spell, or one that you know will pierce the wards. In this particular case, you'd want to mord's, because it's going to hit the most spells as a double-duty breach/dispel. If you go all the way into the abjuration foci feats, Greater Dispelling can do some solid work, as well.

If it's a group of three or more, and they're all warded, AoE is the way to go, but if you see a "high threat target" that's significantly more warded than their companions, I'd go for the single target.

Sparsely warded members of a group are likely just covering the essentials (deathward/shadowshield, FoM, Mindblank, Stoneskin), and these are people your melees are hopefully outperforming since those things block most of your save or die spells. If you have no melees, your spell roster should include many more dispels/breaches/mord's than usual, because unless you're bringing archer swag to the party with you it means no one is hitting win-condition spells while these wards are up. From full health, bursting down anything but the squishiest builds is statistically unlikely unless they make very poor decisions with their action economy while you're trying- remember most people will have at minimum an extra 180 HP at level 30 from a +6 con modifier.

If it's just two people, and they're both warded to the gills, I'd still go for a single target. Two single-target mord's will strip far more than two AoE mord's in that scenario.

If you happen to be a participant in spontaneous PvP that doesn't involve a bunch of pre-fight warding, you're better off going for a win-condition spell before they're warded against all of them. Don't be afraid to queue up a double-tag of the same spell on someone - I'm certain I'm not the only one that has "-pray" hot-keyed.

If early win conditions aren't your bag of tea, I recommend something along the lines of invis potion, haste potion, summon (if applicable), buff, and watch the combat log for the words "casting see invisibility" next to a hostile name. That's your first target. If you finish buffing and no one has done that or started running towards where you vanished, the people you're fighting aren't prepared to deal with a spellcaster and you'll probably win by casting whatever bread and butter spells you brought to the table. If they're buffing, wait for them to start moving towards a target and then dispel them, before unloading if appropriate.


2. Can you get through levels 1-30 doing PvE content and avoid mobs/bosses that use dispels? Does being "dispel-bait" hurt your chances in PvE / make you a liability?

This one is short! If you can summon a creature, clever use of the player one tool (or even just the voice commands although this takes some extra caution) can help you evade 99% of dispels from any mob that doesn't have a limitless supply of them - which is no longer a featured design point of Arelith, so you should be good.

3. Are there builds or gear strategies dispel-baity builds can do to make themselves more versatile?
Yes and no. There are "bad builds" that utilize, for example, 7 levels of STR domain cleric with extend for access to extended divine power and other cleric buffs. For the 11 or so rounds that they can have all these buffs going, their performance certainly improves drastically - but in any PvP scenario where the opponent has the chance to so much as read a scroll of greater dispelling in your direction, those 3.5 rounds of buffs, the spell slots, and the BAB you gave up to take those levels were all just wasted, and nothing is going to stop that from being a thing people can do to you in PvP.

In PvE? Being perfectly honest with you, NWN monster AI is horrifically lemming-like, and while Arelith has some bandaids for that fact, I'm not entirely convinced that if I was determined enough I couldn't take a group of ten level 10's up against Abazurr and find a way to kill her. Those are some big words, but I have some anecdotal experiences surviving things that I absolutely wouldn't have if NWN AI could find its way out of a paper bag, and more of them on Arelith than I do elsewhere.

Edit: It would help if I finished this thought, huh? To that end, you can survive just about anything with a good plan and skillful execution even if you have a horrible build, so long as your goal isn't to solo everything. My recommendation for a 20+ dispel bait build might be to take scribe scroll- you'll recoup the XP invested in adventure XP, and if you find yourself getting dispelled too much, you'll always have backups of your essentials (and be able to make a pretty hefty chunk of gold with the extras). Craft wand is an option, as well, although its functionality is more limited.


4. As a dispeller, are you usually trying to go after particular buffs/wards? Or just a blanket "debuff"?
Freedom of Movement, Shadowshield, Mindblank/lesser, Spell Resistance. Spell mantles(not that I've seen anyone use these). Damage Shields, if I have melee friends with me.

5. Is it better to breach-then-dispel? Or dispel-then-breach?
Objective dependent. Dewarding for your melee buddies? Breach first- damage shields and DR spells will drop. Are you a necromancer trying to land a wail of the banshee? Shadowshield can be breached, but deathward can't, so you want to dispel.

6. I suppose in PvP scenarios involving more than 1 or 2 on each side - a proper dispel must target the proper individual. Is the idea to go after caster-heavy classes first? Do you target high DPS builds?
Situational. This game is old, we've been playing it for a long time. I can look at a character and if you give me enough time(seconds) to visually discriminate between all the pretty flickering lights I can tell you most of the protective wards they have up that stop spells, despite the fact that Arelith doesn't list the magical effects block on examine. Little green thing underneath, FoM, looks like an inky blob, shadowshield, surrounded by glowing eyes, premonition, they've got barkskin up so i'll assume they have stoneskin, too, little red and yellow lights above the head along with an orbiting halo of piano keys, pfe pfg and mindblank.

If you're trying to function as a proper dispel caster, your goal is to keep as few wards on the screen as possible on the enemy team. Other than some zoo and equipment based buffs, you can see who's accumulating a wealth of magical help and who isn't. Focus your dispels on turning off as many of the brite lites as possible, unless a priority threat presents itself and proceeds tear your party apart. This would be your high DPS build- in which case, you might be better off trying to burst it down rather than dispel it, if it's not already glowing a whole lot- but if it is, you probably should have dispelled it before it started mowing down your team!


7. Is a dispel only powerful in the hands of a knowledgeable/skilled player? Or should dispel-bait builds be wary of any opponent who has access to dispels?
BREACH is a powerful tool in the hands of any player, and a devastating one in the hands of a knowledgeable/skilled one. Dispels require a much deeper knowledge to make efficient use of, including knowledge of the capabilities(build) of the other character.

Dispel-bait should always be wary of dispel. Dispel-bait builds tend to rely on the buffs that get dispelled, so to put it in perspective, I would treat getting dispelled as seriously as randomly losing half of my gear in the middle of a protracted fight.


I figured this could get the ball rolling! Sharing of mechanical knowledge is great, thanks.
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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:26 pm

Okay so there are several different situations to consider. First of all, what class is it and how buff reliant is it on it's own spells? For example, I played a spellsword, before the dispel bug, I had terribly low CL all the way to epics and the build ends up with 21 CL. Why? Because most of my buffs were either 1) on the breach list or 2) accessible via wands/potions/scrolls I could mostly make for myself anyway and their CL is my total character level so I didnt really feel my mage CL at all. I believe this example also stands for most ranger and paladin builds with 21-23 CL for the very same reasons. In my honest opinion and my understanding of the dispel bug we live with, these classes are entirely garbage unless played as none casters entirely or played with very high CL and no reliance on external magic sources (which is garbage for all but spellsword maybe). This has nothing to do with their CL though.

The second case is when the caster is not a melee/archer combatant but rather full caster that doesnt live mostly on low(ish) level buffs. In that case I believe the end game CL shouldnt be any less than 27 and maybe 26 in very specific cases where the extra 1 CL lose really means something of immense value.
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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by BattleDrake » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:13 am

This advice comes from a player that has made a crap ton of CL based builds. I've made 23/4/3 battleclerics, i've made 21/9 druid/rogue, 21/6/3 druid/ftr/monk, 22/5/3 ss/rgr/rog(+2 abj def), 21/4/5 rgr/ftr/asn, pure healer cleric, pure wiz. I play in the Underdark, and have been playing Underdark since Cataclysm. I know the Underdark, I know where to go, I know what mobs do what. I've heard the same old argument you have, dispel-bait this, dispel-bait that. Everyone throws around dispel-bait like not having a pure level 30 is a death sentence, or that having a 27/3 caster is somehow godmode compared to a 25 or 23 cl. It's not. When hit with a Mord's from an abjurer, everyone feels it. Some classes/builds suffer more than others, but a low cl just means you have to rethink your strategy. Now to answer your questions!

1. Depends entirely on the scenario. There's been a lot of changes to scrolls and the like recently, so tactics have changed since not everyone can Mord you anymore, but a mord's used to be the go to opener when facing a heavily buffed opponent. It removes summons, removes heavy buffs, and gets rid of or lowers SR. If facing a mage, they're probably going to use it on you if you're the target. I'll cover a big pvp battle I was a part of in the shadow plane. Lots of shadowy people against lots of good people. Waves of attacks. At one point, my character saw a mage running around in the chaos that was the fight; they were shooting off spells while still fully buffed despite that fight having already gone on for awhile(They had been overlooked with the initial dispels). My primary target became that mage, so I threw off a mord's that instantly stripped them of their magic and they were quickly killed. That mage having high or low cl doesn't matter, they were losing their primary buffs regardless; they became an obvious dispel target. Advice, don't be an obvious target. An aoe dispel is far less punishing than a direct one.

2. 100%, easy. There are a couple places I avoid because I hate being dispelled. Once you know these places, you just avoid them. They aren't primary leveling places, generally, so it doesn't hurt your experience. If there are times you travel to these places, you target the dispeller and you just make sure you're not the first target to get hit with a dispel. Use your summon, use an ally, throw a darkness, kill the caster before they get the chance. In the end, you'll probably get into a few fights where a dispel gets rid of all your good buffs. They happen sometimes, they suck, escape and rebuff/rest; whatever you have to do. As for being a liability, I can't think of an end game situation where one person getting debuffed got an entire group killed, it's everyone's job to tackle the task.

3. Being a summoner helps a lot. You have summons to take the debuffs, and them getting dispelled is far less inconvenient than you in a hairy situation. Abj defense helps some, +2 can help you keep some of your buffs. Gear for the stats your character needs, so you don't rely 100% on zoo buffs or you'll notice when they're gone. Also, saves, pump those up! If you do get dispelled, you don't want to fail save the following death spell. Lastly, make use of your environment. LoS the dispellers, invest in stealth, darkness. Lots of ways to counter dispellers.

4. Depends on what I am, but a few core buffs I definitely don't want them to have are Spell Resistance, Death Ward/Shadowshield, any Mind Protections, Acid Sheathe, Shield, Negative Energy Protection, Mantles, Freedom. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

5. Breach 100% gets rid of spells and usually the ones you want, also lowers SR. I'd throw a Mord's before a Greater Breach before a greater dispel, before a lesser breach.

6. Situational. Like the scenario before, I targeted the heavily buffed mage because they seemed to be free to run around and throw spells, and I knew nobody's aoe spells or direct attacks on them would have been beneficial. If I see a dps running around and seems to be putting everyone on the run, i'll throw a Mord's their way to see if it can help. It's all about who looks like a target. You don't typically just throw a Mord's because you can, you want it to be impactful, so you target those who seem like they'd be the most impacted. Otherwise, you'll run out of Mord's, and the real threat will make sure you learn your lesson. I would add, my character was the 22/5/3 spellsword in this situation, and never got hit with a mord's once. He was constantly overlooked and was free to run around picking out targets.

7. These days? Only Mages/Warlocks/Paladins/SS are doing any real dispelling. They know they can dispel, typically, and they'll most likely use it. Target them, or avoid them in a big fight. You don't have to take on everyone! Pick your targets wisely.

At the end of your character's run, you'll probably have a situation or two you reflect on and think to yourself, man, wish I had more CL for -that- fight, but it's definitely not going to be the majority of them. You can have just as much fun playing a low cl as a high one.

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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by Garthis » Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:06 am

Dedman1234 wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:30 am
First off, breaching is usually the way to go. With the recent updates to scrolls, throwing breaches around is far rarer, as it requires either a lore investment or using rare items. When it comes to dispelling... characters that are not epic abjurers pretty much cannot use dispells at all, with warlocks being probably the only exception as they can spam CL 24 dispells at will. Characters that ARE epic abjurers will be hitting you with a mord for sure, unless they feel confident enough to attempt an evocombo on you. A mord from an abjurer breaches 6 spells AND applies a CL 26 dispell on top of the breach. Really dangerous for low CL builds for sure. In summary: breaches>dispells, because most ppl don't have the CL to dispell anyone, while those that do have enough CL will be applying both breaches and dispells at the same time anyway.

When it comes to PVP against characters that are not epic abjurers, they might sometimes hit ya with a mord scroll as well, but they usually sacrificed something for the very ability to use mord scrolls. If you are a high priority target, then you might even get hit with a rod, but remember that even the rods don't have that high of a CL, so their dispell is not too dangerous for someone with a CL>20. You are in deep trouble if you encounter an epic abjurer tho. Unless you manage to be very close to them when the fight starts and kill 'em quickly, you will be rapidly stripped of most buffs, something I assume your builds are very reliant on, seeing as you got over 20 lvls of spellcaster classes.

That being the case, I once saw a very powerful spellsword build that had a total CL of 22 (24 against dispels, since it had def:abj). The fellow was capable of tearing literally anything to shreds in moments, while fully buffed, but got in serious trouble when dealing with abj mages. It could still kill them very quickly if played well, tho. I would say that trading CL for multiclassing can sometimes work, but it is risky. Then again, anything concerning PVP is. Keep in mind that overreliance on buffs can screw you over in fights that don't involve breaching or dispelling at all. PVP is usually very quick, there is rarely time to buff properly unless you happen to encounter a foe right after warding for a boss fight or are setting out with the sole purpose of killing someone. Zoo spells and the like last a long time, but many real nasty spells are rounds/CL, so it is unlikely you will be running around with them all the time. If you don't happen to be at your strongest when a fight breaks out, a mundane WM will wipe the floor with you. There is also a huge difference between having 23 ranger lvls and 23 cleric lvls. A ranger will do fine even if dispelled, as they are not very reliant on their spells. A properly dispelled cleric is usually a dead cleric.

As for PVE encounters... When I started out, I often got dispelled as a pure caster in places that were well in my level range. One cheeky weave eater targetted my poor mage with a dispel, and POOF. All my protective spells, my summon, my zoo spells gone. The trick in PVE would be to avoid being targetted in the first place, by using your summon wisely. An elemental losing buffs because of a dispell is a minor (if annoying) setback, but far less dangerous than being left with your pants down. Now, imagine not being a summoner at all and having an even lower CL. It can be seriously dangerous for such toons to visit locations with dispelling mobs, unless your character happens to be a monster even without buffs or has HIPS, which happens to be incredibly useful when dealing with mages. Dispells are avoidable, though. If you play well, doing stuff like breaking LoS with mobs you know have dispells ready and attacking them from behind a corner with a KD or something... It takes some experience to pull off properly but is definitely doable. If you traded CL for the ability to deal more damage than a roided out WM and are decent at the game, then you definitely won't be a liability.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.
What was this CL 22 Spellsword build?

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Re: Dispel-bait prevalence

Post by Skibbles » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:01 am

I've played an epic abjuration wizard for quite a few years and have been in a number of (almost entirely) small group versus group pvp encounters. Usually when both sides know a fight is coming.

You best bet you're getting hit with a mords in these scenarios at least. In fact usually when I prepare for such a thing my entire ninth circle is just mords and mords and more mords with maybe one other spell.

Especially if you're a natural SR 32 race like drow/svirf it is practically a prerequisite to hit with a mord/greater breach before trying other spells because of the chance they may naturally resist.

However I can't speak to what builds I've hit with the spell and how effective their resistance to it is. Just about everyone is completely stripped every time from what I can tell.

Just about everything important, besides haste and death ward, are on the breach list anyway. Battledrake might have a point solely based on that.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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