How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

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Lasos
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How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Lasos » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:28 am

Hello everyone,

I've been in hiatus for a while, and have not had a chance to properly play since the shift from UMD to Lore for scrolls. I was wondering if it is worthwhile for, lets say, a rogue to try and reach the 80 lore. So my questions are the following:
  • [1] Is 80 lore feasible to have constantly? I can do the math myself to see that it is possible to reach, however, the cost seems immense if you want to reliable cast level IX spells at all times.

    [2] What are the benefits exactly from having 80 Lore? I know the scrolls are very usefull, but is it mostly in PvP, or PvE as well? Does anyone have personal experience with reaching 80 lore and can attest to its usefullness?

    [3] Are there other Lore breakpoints that I am missing?

    [4] I see most of the proposed builds have 33 Lore. Is it possible to get by without or will one definitely be missing out on something?
To sum it up, I guess I am asking whether it is really worthwhile to reach 80 Lore. Perhaps it would be feasible for the preparative stage of a fight, where you switch in gear to get the last bit of lore needed, but I am just not sure it is really worth the investment.

Any help/insight is appreciated.

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Dalenger » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:43 pm

80 lore isn't that useful. Time Stop has been nerfed out of the PvP meta and all the scrolls you really want (GMW, etc) are at lower levels.
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Lasos » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:02 pm

So are there any breakpoints (ie. level 5 spells, or what do I know) that a typical Cookie Cutter Rogue would seek? If you already have UMD for wands, im not sure I see what the unique benefits are for such a heavy skill investment. I really feel like i am missing something.

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:49 pm

Word of Faith and Mass Heal scrolls are a consideration

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Dalenger » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:53 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:49 pm
Word of Faith and Mass Heal scrolls are a consideration
Yep, WoF is pretty powerful. Heal pots are pretty common, so mass heal is back to being so-so. If you're playing a rogue then you'll definitely have the skills the spare. So 7th circle is probably where you'll want to end up.
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Wuthering » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:02 pm

I know I'm kinda saying what other people are saying but- the tiers that matter, I believe, are 15 lore, 50 and 80.

15 you should get ASAP as it allows 3rd level scrolls and under and that'll be extremely useful while doing writs and remain useful later on (GMW, summon or animate dead, mage armor, zoo buffs, shield, NEP and barksin when you don't have potions, etc etc). You can get that with 0 lore and some easily obtainable gear, or just dedicate some or all of the skill points- being able to ID most items you find is also great quality of life.

50 is for World of Faith scrolls, primarily, and is easy to obtain by maxing Lore to 33 and adding some gear. It's very good in PVP but I wouldn't say it's mandatory if it's a struggle.

80 is something you have to dedicate towards including epic skill focus: lore feat and and utilizing most of your gear slots, and it's basically to cast time stop (not as useful as it once was), mords disjunction (very useful) and gate (a decent panic button or distraction.)

Premonition and a few other scrolls are also considerations but those are the most important, I'd say. And it's all about high-end PVP vs other players who consider themselves experts and use the same or similar tactics. If you plan to go there then you should consider the lore investment -and- learn how those people play (don't just take the lore and expect to figure it out on your own, because it's not that intuitive- you have to do things in certain sequences or know the best counter moves, etc.)

If you don't care about "elite PVP" then there's far more fun uses of skill points, gear slots and feats and 15 lore is enough.

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:05 pm

Given the fact I still see greater gems of nullification from time to time and that time stop is not worth that big of a lore investment, I'd say 50 lore is the best stop for most builds I can think of. Aura of Vitality for clerics and mages, WoF for pretty much everyone but clerics and 50 is also reasonably doable without screwing up the build too much. Its obtainable by epic skill focus lore, max rank and one ring of insight, witch hunter's cloak or whatever.

I dont think anyone mentioned 25 yet? 25 is also a relatively ok stop if you are really REALLY tight on skill points. It contains up to lesser mindblank, improved invisibility, lesser spell breach, freedom, deathward. On a really skill point starved character I would consider putting maybe 10-20 lore and making up to 25 with gear.
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:46 am

Edit: Scurvy corrected something I said incorrectly. Warlock is one of the only things that can pull it off easily since they have room for ESF lore and relatively easy gearing.
Last edited by garrbear758 on Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:52 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:46 am
The only thing I would do 80 lore on is a 26/4 bard/pally(bg), a warlock, or a pure bard. Both bards can get it to 80 with pretty minimal gearing. Warlock has the room for an ESF lore. Anything else I wouldn't bother going above 50 unless you are really flexible on feats and gear
Minor correction to this:

Bard still has to do some barrel scraping to hit 80, because the skill bonus from song does not count.
Skill Ranks, Intelligence modifier, + Lore on equipment, the Dwarven bonus to Lore, Courteous Magocracy , Skill Focus: Lore and Epic Skill Focus: Lore, 1/2 of the Bardic Knowledge Lore bonus
A 26/4 bard with full ranks in lore and an average 2 int mod is still only at 48 lore for scroll purposes. Rings of lore properly enchanted can help out a fair bit, and get you to 58. Making up the remaining 22 points gets a little harder, unless you spring for ESF:lore (at which point you can do +2 lore on boots, neck, gloves, belt, +5 on witchunter's cloak to get you to 81). There's usually a bit of a problem with this, though, even with ESF:Lore.

Div bard is a pretty demanding build to gear properly, since it doesn't get the boost to duration on aura of glory or bg bulls that make deeper paladin/bg builds more forgiving on the gear front. This means a lot of tristat runic stuff. It also wants at least a fair chunk of skills from its gear, so you're looking at 3 stats + perform + some spread of disc/sc/listen across everything else. If you go for lore, you're probably just looking at tristat/perform/lore gear, and you're not really happy about those lore rings/witchhunter's cloak either. It's actually probably playable, if you go that route, but at this point, we're looking at the investment of an epic feat, slightly off-preference ring and cloak slot items, and bumping some 8-10 points of a different skill that you want.

It's definitely doable, but the gearing is still a fair cry from "minimal", and I'm not really sold on it being worthwhile at the cost.


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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:56 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:52 am
garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:46 am
The only thing I would do 80 lore on is a 26/4 bard/pally(bg), a warlock, or a pure bard. Both bards can get it to 80 with pretty minimal gearing. Warlock has the room for an ESF lore. Anything else I wouldn't bother going above 50 unless you are really flexible on feats and gear
Minor correction to this:

Bard still has to do some barrel scraping to hit 80, because the skill bonus from song does not count.
Skill Ranks, Intelligence modifier, + Lore on equipment, the Dwarven bonus to Lore, Courteous Magocracy , Skill Focus: Lore and Epic Skill Focus: Lore, 1/2 of the Bardic Knowledge Lore bonus
A 26/4 bard with full ranks in lore and an average 2 int mod is still only at 48 lore for scroll purposes. Rings of lore properly enchanted can help out a fair bit, and get you to 58. Making up the remaining 22 points gets a little harder, unless you spring for ESF:lore (at which point you can do +2 lore on boots, neck, gloves, belt, +5 on witchunter's cloak to get you to 81). There's usually a bit of a problem with this, though, even with ESF:Lore.

Div bard is a pretty demanding build to gear properly, since it doesn't get the boost to duration on aura of glory or bg bulls that make deeper paladin/bg builds more forgiving on the gear front. This means a lot of tristat runic stuff. It also wants at least a fair chunk of skills from its gear, so you're looking at 3 stats + perform + some spread of disc/sc/listen across everything else. If you go for lore, you're probably just looking at tristat/perform/lore gear, and you're not really happy about those lore rings/witchhunter's cloak either. It's actually probably playable, if you go that route, but at this point, we're looking at the investment of an epic feat, slightly off-preference ring and cloak slot items, and bumping some 8-10 points of a different skill that you want.

It's definitely doable, but the gearing is still a fair cry from "minimal", and I'm not really sold on it being worthwhile at the cost.
Thanks for correcting me on that! I totally thought song (and good hope) counted as well.
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by -slave » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:34 pm

It allows my commoner to drop a gate and Mords people. Not something people expect...

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Ork » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:24 am

It allows my commoner to drop a gate and Mords people. Not something people expect...
Now this is pure irony. Didn't we change UMD because a warrior shouldn't be able to cast a L9 spell? Commoners make better scroll-casters.

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:32 am

If the question is how useful is 80 lore, the only answer is extremely, because it lets your character cast every spell in the game, providing it can be scribed.

Whether or not that utility (and the cost of achieving it) fit into your build in a synergistic way is another question entirely, but 33 ranks/50 final lore after gear is what I'd say has become the new 'mandatory' investment (G.resto and shadowshield are among some of the more useful acquisitions at this level besides WoF).
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by -slave » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:24 am
It allows my commoner to drop a gate and Mords people. Not something people expect...
Now this is pure irony. Didn't we change UMD because a warrior shouldn't be able to cast a L9 spell? Commoners make better scroll-casters.
The Specialist gets access to all skills as class skills. Outside of fighting anything I'd argue the commoner might be the best rogue on the server. :D

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Kuma » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:41 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:32 am
If the question is how useful is 80 lore, the only answer is extremely, because it lets your character cast every spell in the game, providing it can be scribed.
there's maybe 5 spells that you'd actually want to cast from a scroll. you're hugely inflating the value of the other hundred or whatever spells there are.

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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:13 pm

Kuma wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:41 pm
there's maybe 5 spells that you'd actually want to cast from a scroll. you're hugely inflating the value of the other hundred or whatever spells there are.
This has been my experience as well. Reminds me of the ridiculous UMD requirements on certain pieces of gear. After a certain point, these values are just silly.
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Re: How usefull is 80 Lore exactly?

Post by Sindaglin » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:16 pm

65 is the most i would go , it gives you 8th Circle Spells Premonition , Protection from Spells and a few others being the best and tgat is very doable without sacrificing Feats to accomplish ! The 9th circle woukd have been nice but the nerf to TS took the want and need out of it IMO .
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