Str Ranger - to dip or not to dip

[Wethrinea]

I am approaching epic levels with my str ranger who is currently holding up quite OK in PVE, which is really the only thing I care about, and now I soon have to decide what direction to go from there. I know that a fighter dip would provide more flat damage, but with BoE I think he is OK in that department anyway. The question is rather whether he should dip in rogue or monk for better defence in terms of AC (and skill points +2d6 sneak with rogue, or 10 APR QS w/haste with monk) or go pure ranger for max FE, animal companion, dispel resistance and flavour?

The latter option will net him 3 extra FE (4 with two more points in wisdom), a slightly stronger companion, higher caster level and 6 more HP at the cost of 3 AC from tumble and other goodies from 3 levels of monk or rogue, such as UMD, sneak and more QS APR.

In essence; how important are those 3 AC in PVE when you are usually on the front line?

[garrbear758]

If you're a strength ranger, dip specialist or bard.
If you're a dex ranger, dip monk.

STRanger is a low ac build, and that 3ac is extremely important and absolutely worth grabbing over going pure.

[Wethrinea]

Specialist for skills, I understand, but why bard?

[Rigela]

Spellcraft, arcane wands, useful skills and t3 dweomer crafting if you take something like craft wand/brew potion along with bard.

[AstralUniverse]

Spellcraft, arcane wands, useful skills and t3 dweomer crafting if you take something like craft wand/brew potion along with bard.

How does a bard dip increase your dwemocrafting tier? You'd actually better off going pure ranger with 1 crafting feat to get that tier 3, and if you'd dip bard you actually lose a tier. Bard is no longer a good dip. Specialist covers all of what bard dip gives. I'd go 27 ranger 3 specialist on a str-ranger.

[Rigela]

Spellcraft, arcane wands, useful skills and t3 dweomer crafting if you take something like craft wand/brew potion along with bard.

How does a bard dip increase your dwemocrafting tier? You'd actually better off going pure ranger with 1 crafting feat to get that tier 3, and if you'd dip bard you actually lose a tier. Bard is no longer a good dip. Specialist covers all of what bard dip gives. I'd go 27 ranger 3 specialist on a str-ranger.

27 ranger/3 bard puts you at tier 2, then a crafting feat to tier 3. Bard is still very much a good dip, because along with that you get arcane wands as well.

[AstralUniverse]

27 ranger/3 bard puts you at tier 2

See, this is where I /think/ you're mistaken. You need full 28 ranger levels for tier 2. those 3 bard lvls dont stack with ranger lvls. So there's no reason to take bard over specialist that I can think of. You dip 16 umd as a specialist and get access to all wands anyway.

[Rigela]

27 ranger/3 bard puts you at tier 2

See, this is where I /think/ you're mistaken. You need full 28 ranger levels for tier 2. those 3 bard lvls dont stack with ranger lvls. So there's no reason to take bard over specialist that I can think of. You dip 16 umd as a specialist and get access to all wands anyway.

Unless it changed recently, it does give you tier 2 as the levels do stack as both hybrid caster levels. My ranger got to tier 3 with 27/3 and craft wand before I changed to specialist over bard.

[Dr. B]

Totally off topic but can we start abbreviating "strength ranger" as "stranger"? This should become a thing.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

If you use quarterstaff, I'd go with monk dip, myself. That also kinda depends on your stat spread and gearing.


But yeah, 90% of the time you get so so much out of a dip. So much more.

[Baron Saturday]

Keep in mind that monk APR doesn't function when wearing armor. I imagine that, as a Str ranger (stranger?), you're gearing towards ranger studded leather?

Specialist or bard does seem like the way to go to me, for a tumble and spellcraft dump. Bard, as mentioned, also gets you access to arcane wands, and if you're a carpenter there's some sweet bard-only craftable instruments.

[dallion43]

Str ranger/monk are difficult to optimize, especially if you didn't do it from lvl 0.

Ranger gets evasion so rouge is mainly good if you really need it for rune hunting as a profession.

30 ranger will miss 3AC and 3 saves from spellcraft plus umd wands plus bard usables.
It not worth it.
When dipping do pick FEs very carefully prioritizing PvP. The one time you will need it in PvP will overide any PVE FE focus benefits in the long term. Str rangers have enough damage as is in PvE.

Go bard. As mentioned above by Baron Saturday, bard gets all relevant skills plus instruments with high UMD req. Usable by bard only. They were a cheat before and even post-lore calling them sweet is an understatment.

[Griefmaker]

If you use quarterstaff, I'd go with monk dip, myself. That also kinda depends on your stat spread and gearing.


But yeah, 90% of the time you get so so much out of a dip. So much more.

I will agree with this. I made mine TN so despite him being a real "Mannard", he missed out on a nice hunk of damage due to less APR.

[AstralUniverse]

27 ranger/3 bard puts you at tier 2

See, this is where I /think/ you're mistaken. You need full 28 ranger levels for tier 2. those 3 bard lvls dont stack with ranger lvls. So there's no reason to take bard over specialist that I can think of. You dip 16 umd as a specialist and get access to all wands anyway.

Unless it changed recently, it does give you tier 2 as the levels do stack as both hybrid caster levels. My ranger got to tier 3 with 27/3 and craft wand before I changed to specialist over bard.

Thanks for the clarification then. Its good to know bard dips still make sense to hybrid classes such as rangers and paladins for that purpose at least. However, since specialist also gives a bonus feat, and since you'll likely take an epic skill focus on this build either to UMD for a cool weapon or lore, could be argued that a specialist is still better, as you can simply switch feats around and take another crafting feat. Its pretty cool that bard dip isnt entirely useless tho, in comparison.

And I really dont recommend a monk dip on a str based ranger. Its really going to be a nightmare to gear and will only 'bloom' with end-game gear when it's ac isnt entirely none-existent. If this isnt a problem, then its possibly worth it and can come out ahead in ac (maybe, and if yes then really not by much) with a ranger tunic. Then you get the apr and its a decent end-game build, but again... good luck getting to the point where your gear actually justifies this monk dip.

[dallion43]

For a ranger it is easy to get 12–20/*2 on a main weapon and 15–20/*2 on the secondary.
For a str ranger this usually means plenty of ~~75 damage crits on a main hand(5apr) and enough on secondary(2apr) with ~48ab.

APR is great, don't get me wrong. But I do recommend to test it on a PGG with a friend and compare the above to 9apr 18–20/*2
and decide for yourself damage wise.

AC wise monk is 3(shield)/6(dual)AC better. But your saves will lack just enough to make a difference going this road.

P.C
I didn't notice the OP mentioned QS in his post. If that means you already have the QS feats and you are not willing to consider changing those to one-handed edged, 3 lvl monk all the way. Just prepare for major gearing effort.

[Wethrinea]

Thank you all for the input so far. The character has polearm as chosen weapon group and alternates between spear/shield and QS. He also has 14 base dex and wisdom, so I figured that runic shirt + maxed wisdom and dex will net him more AC (when TWF AC is in) than studded + shield, but he will come out worse when using a spear.

I had the ranger/monk combo in mind when I created him, but then I fell in love with the spear/shield aesthetics, so I'm very unsure. Again, he does not need to be top tier, only not terrible to play in PVE. So I am leaning towards the specialist dip. Bard does not really suit him. He is one of the least bardy characters I can think of.