Review of pure Rogue draft

[calisto]

Hi there, I'm looking for advice and review of this pure Rogue.

Human
STR 13 - DEX 17 - CON 14 - INT 14 - WIS 8 - CHA 8
Gifts of DEX, INT, Sneak

1 - Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting
3 - Weapon Focus : 1H Edged
6 - Expertise
9 - Improved Expertise
10-Crippling Strike
12-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13-Defensive Roll
15-Knockdown / Improved Critical / Toughness / Iron Will
16-Improved Evasion
18-Blind Fight
19-Slippery Mind/Skill Mastery
21-Epic Weapon Focus : 1H Edged
24-Blinding Speed, Armor Skin
27-ESF:Hide
28-Epic Dodge
30-ESF:Open Lock / Epic Prowess / Epic Will

Skills :
33 in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Set Trap, Bluff, Lore, Heal, Appraise, UMD, Search, Open Lock
30 in Tumble
1 in Disable Trap, Pick Pocket
1 left

I've calculated that I can reach 68 Disable Trap with full gear + Rogue's Cunning which is what I aim at. Perhaps pushing hard ranks to 11 to be free from Rogue's Cunning for recovering epic traps, though I don't know how frequent they are and if the investment could be worth.

I've calculated that maxing Open Lock with ESF as well would let me lockpick player quarters once fully geared and buffed by a Bard, though I'm not sure if this all adds up like I think.
"Note that these bonuses are soft and subject to the 50 skillpoint cap." Not sure how this rule applies here. If it doesn't sum up, I guess being a specialized lockpicker doesn't quite work, and I would relocate the points into Spellcraft.

I've also calculated that I can reach exactly 80 Lore with a fully dedicated gear, which is a nice potential to have. High Lore also lets me easily reach 50/65 breakpoints.

Saves :
Reflexes : 12(pre-epics)+5(epics)+14(DEX mod)+11(unisave from gear)+2(Protection from Alignment) = 44 (47vs spells with Spellcraft from gear+INT)
Fortitude : 7+5+2(hard CON)+5(soft CON)+11+2 = 32 (35 vs spells) --- I won't be able to reach 12 soft CON self buffed
Will : 7+5-1+2(soft WIS)+11+2 = 26 (29 vs spells)

Only the Will save is a bit low, which makes me wonder about Will feats. Although I reckon it can be played around with Beholder Dust/Silence Wand/Choking Powder (read this, don't know what this item does). Also, Slippery Mind will help that, even though it only applies to Mind-Affecting.

Gear :
The basic Rogue gear I suppose, Displacer Cloak, Elven Boots, Armor of the Wilds, Assassin's Cross x2, Adamantine helmet.
5 slots left for basic 2 stats/2 skills/unisave which lets me grab 10 Spellcraft, some UMD for AotW, some Lore.
Everything runed for unisave.

------
I've avoided Fighter dip to have maximum Skill points, maximum Grenade DCs, and because I plan on using unisave daggers which feel less appealing for Weapon Spec + Improved Critical setup. Also I love Rogue's flavour so much

So that's it, my specific questions are the following :

- Is it worth having Improved Critical since I will be using two daggers (runed for unisave) with no Weapon Spec ? I believe Knockdown gives much more potential, especially combined with a Blinding Speed + True Strike potion.

- Does 33 Open Lock + ESF : Open Lock + fully dedicated gear + Rogue's Cunning + Bard Song allow me to reach the fabled 120 roll and trully be a master of Locks ? (I know this is not to be publicly discussed, please answer with PM if necessary)

- Does Skill Mastery allow for always rolling 20 on player doors ?

- Do you consider Epic Will worth it against Epic Prowess ? How strongly would you recommend investing 30 Spellcraft ?

- Would you trade Armor Skin for Epic Prowess ?


Thank you kindly for your knowledge and patience. I'm excited to play this character

Edit : I know this character has very limited soloing potential, because it relies on Sneak Attack damage entirely. This is why I consider Improved Critical a minor boost to damage, right ?

[Drowboy]

Dead man's crosses, right? I'd really suggest you invest in disc. Genuinely.

Like, you'll be thankful for it later.

Otherwise you don't really need that much of either of your unlock skills.

[Skarain]

Will Disc even be worthwhile, if you cross-class to it? 16 ranks won't save you from anything.

Keeping within the bounds of the "pure rogue" theme.

[BaRKyy]

I'd seriously recommend strongly dipping into fighter (which you've said you don't want to for lack of skillpoints) but if not fighter, then at least specialist from 27-30. You get 6 skill points less in total, but access to all skills as well as a free ESF for just the dip and it does fit in line with the general rogue aesthetic.

A specialist dip gives you

- Access to discipline (You are going to seriously miss this in the late epics when every mob can KD you permanently)
- Access to spellcraft (Free saves)
- A free Epic Skill Focus, which you said you're using an epic feat for regardless, this frees up prowess or armor skin for you to take.

You do lose some small things here and there, but running 0 discipline even with this new timer on KD is insanity. The reason some builds can get away with it is because they're able to conjure up summons to do the frontlining for them.

To answer your more specific questions -

It's good you're gearing well for unisaves. Rogues aren't known for their amazing saves.

If it's between improved critical and knockdown, unless you can go improved knockdown I'd stick with improved crit. Pair that with a set of keen daggers and your DPS output goes up fairly highly. As for KD you don't have the APR or the AB to reliably KD people with it, it's also on a timer based cooldown while improved crit is up all the time.

The soft bonus for open lock you get is 50. You need 77 from hard bonuses, so no. You'd need a trickery cleric or something to get in. Skill mastery does not work for opening doors.

Your saves, except for reflex, aren't going to be high. Even though, I'd still take prowess over the save feat as you can always use clarity wands or mind blank scrolls to avoid the worst as well as using death protection wands to avoid your worst fort fail fear.

Yes I'd take armor skin over prowess, mostly because your AC isn't going to be high enough to avoid being hit by most things as it is and you aren't going discipline, meaning the average mob you face up against is going to KD you pretty often in the epics. With armor skin it lessens the chance of you being hit at least, while prowess allows you to hit more (on things you won't be hitting very hard)

Your damage isn't going to be high if you're running solo regardless. As a dex rogue you rely heavily on sneak attack damage, and it's the reason why most rogue builds have six fighter levels in them to try and get some much needed, salvagable, damage. Your grenades can only take you so far (though they are way better than people give them credit for)


Good luck with the character, I'm glad you're aware of your weaknesses in the build before going in with it and I hope you have fun with 'em.

[AstralUniverse]

24 rogue, 6 fighter. Anything else is pretty much a mistake. The difference in skill points and in grenades' DC does not worth the lack of fighter levels in any way measure or form. Especially for a dual wielder.

[calisto]

I've looked into 27rogue/3 specialist and 24rogue/6fighter.
The Fighter dip is more interesting imo, leaning on more martial power but it loses 36 skill points, plus having to invest in discipline and ESF:Discipline. Which means I need to drop Appraise and Bluff (or Set Trap/Listen), that feels pretty bad.

Going from 30rogue to 24rogue/6fighter means :
Losing Appraise, Bluff, ESF:Hide, Slippery Mind, 2 Reflex, 3d6 Sneak Attack, 3 Grenades DC, 1 Trap DC, 1 turn on Blinding Speed CD (no longer perma hasted).
Gaining 1apr, 1ab, 6 flat damage, 10% threat range, 45hp, 3 Fortitude, 42 Discipline.

I've looked at the Hide/MS scores when geared (no Hide/MS dweomer enchants) + buffed, they are 85 Hide, 71 Move Silently. Considering that Listen can easily be buffed to 65, I'm not sure about being willing to drop ESF:Hide.

Yes, pure Rogue has 0 Discipline, but how does that matter in party play where I'll either be guarded or guard someone with ImpExpertise ?
When I try to consider a PvP scenario, I don't see any reason to be trading blows with someone. I'll either be running for a re-stealth or baiting into traps, or dropping sneak attack rounds into flashbangs/sonic traps/knockdowns. In these cases, I'm either turtling in Improved Expertise or straight up running from anything that can KD me.
Finally, if I invest into Discipline, I can only gather a total score of 32+10+2(soft STR)+10(dweomer gear) = 54 Discipline, which is better than 0 of course, but is that enough to facetank a lategame pack or a WeaponMaster ?

Oh, and I realized the build reaches 59AC (fully self buffed + ImpExpertise) with no Armor Skin. Against 50AB I have 0/20/5/5/5 % chance to be hit on a basic 5APR. I'm now considering starting 10STR/18DEX and trading Armor Skin for Great Dex, gaining 1ab (not 1 ac with it sadly due to chest limitation). I wonder though if the carry capacity isn't going to be too low for a Rogue hoarding wands+rods+traps+open/disable gear+potions+grenades... Sure there will be Giant Strength potions that I can do myself.

To me it seems worth considering the amount of extra income that Appraise will give. This gold will become Mord gems, Timestop hourglass, WoF scrolls, Heal potions. Perhaps even the ability to pay a mercenary PC to help me deal with trouble, or to bribe my way into alliances, which seems like more interesting gameplay than pure mechanical martial power.

Dropping Bluff feels absolutely bad for shenanigan roleplay.

[Baron Saturday]

Just a quick math check: 50 AB, hasted, means an attack progression of 50/50/45/40/35. Against 59 AC, that's a 60/60/35/10/5% hit chance. Edodge will avoid one of those in a 1v1 scenario, but that still leaves a very good chance of someone getting in there with a KD, and that's likely all it would take.

I don't want to discourage you from trying this, especially since it sounds like you have some cool rp ideas lined up, just to warn you that PvE and PvP may be more difficult than you expect. I'd love to hear about your experience, if you do go for this.

[Gouge Away]

I swear by 24 or 25 rogue/ 5 or 6 ranger with archer path as an alternative to 24 rogue/6 fighter. You get rapid shot, the ability to track and not leave tracks (SUPER important) and easy access to dual wielding feats in exchange for epic weapon specialization.

[Ebonstar]

wasnt there a big discussion on building to crack quarter and guildhouse doors, and how such a build was deemed a dont do it?

[BaRKyy]

The issue is that a single creep can KD you. That is truly and utterly not fun. Even guarded by someone with improved expertise you'll certainly be hitting hard at that point, but in no way is 30 rogue worth it over almost anything else. 59 AC with improved expertise is on the low side for a dex build and is low enough that basically any melee mundane will have at least a 50% chance of hitting you. Especially in pvp where you'll be knocked down every three rounds by anyone who tries it.


You don't lose any of the skills you mentioned. Specialist gets all skills, and if going fighter you only take two fighter levels in the epics and you'll be taking one early in the epics and the last one at 30.


Again, not trying to dissuade you by coming across as rude or anything. Just trying to help you be aware of what you're getting yourself into. You can be some MLG Neverwinter Nights pro and still be beholden to someone simply clicking on you. Epic dodge only works again one creep per round. 54 discipline is infinitely better than 0 and is enough to deal with most foes on the server, yes. Ideally you want 60+ but 54 is more than good enough.

[calisto]

I've looked into the 6 Ranger dip, it loses 12 Skillpoints only, gets a lot of free feats, but doesn't qualify for Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Either you retake Ambi+TWF (and end up with one less feat than Rogue30 due to losing Rogue28), or accept the loss of the offhand attack which is compensated by the 1 extra APR from pre-epics and go Improved Knockdown + 1 Epic feat. This is interesting.

What annoys me the most by going Discipline (even as a Specialist) is that I have to drop 33 Skillpoints for it, losing one of Appraise/Bluff/Set Trap/Listen. The 6 Fighter dip is really great for combat prowess, but loses an extra 36 Skillpoints !

I think it has to be possible of playing around a 0 Discipline in PvP, since I want to be landing Sneak Attacks into dazed/stunned people. In PvE though it has to be annoying getting bullied by a random melee guy on the side of the fight, sure.

Oh and also, would you consider trading Epic Prowess for Improved Knockdown ? I reckon it's a great way to get into position for Sneak Attacks.

[Curve]

Literally anything can work for PvE. Somethings are easier than others, but you can get tree to level 30. PvP is another story. You can work around no discipline with extreme AC, or being tricky, or really good at the game. But, at some point there will be someone that figures out they can take advantage of your weakness and they will get you. Limiting weaknesses is part of building, and with a pure rogue you have a number of them, and that is okay. Look at it as a challenge. What is the worst that can happen?

If it was me, I would take Epic Fort over Epic Will and take something else instead of Slippery Mind. You are going to have to do the exact same things in order for you Will save to not get you killed (Clarity, Mindblank, blabla) with a 14 as a 10 as a 19+spellcraft.

You are just going to have to be more sneaky and plan out PvP. Sounds fun to me.

[Gouge Away]

I've looked into the 6 Ranger dip, it loses 12 Skillpoints only, gets a lot of free feats, but doesn't qualify for Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Either you retake Ambi+TWF (and end up with one less feat than Rogue30 due to losing Rogue28), or accept the loss of the offhand attack which is compensated by the 1 extra APR from pre-epics and go Improved Knockdown + 1 Epic feat. This is interesting.

It's not as bad as you say at all. You have bonus favored enemy ranger feats at level 1 and 5 that can be used for ambidexterity and two weapon fighting, or save the 5th ranger feat for epic prowess or weapon focus in epics. That means a standard feat later on a rogue level can be used for improved two weapon fighting. Vs fighter you're down a couple of feats in the end and lose +6 damage from epic weapon specialization but depending on what you're up to not leaving tracks could be far more valuable. Also you get to wear ranger armors, which are awesome.

Taking archer path gets you rapid shot which is nice for part-time ranged attacks (don't put focus feats into it, just save all the millions of darts etc you find in chests for ranged sneak attacks when they're useful like against acid sheathed enemies.) It's not mandatory but you may as well as it beats what you'd get if you didn't.

[Poolbrain]

Don't let your memes be dreams. Build your pure rogue with all the fun toys you can imagine.

Don't be scared of having weaknesses, every interesting character have them you will just need to learn how to play around them.

Your character will know his own weakness and be scared in certain situations, which is super fun and adds some contrast to every character who laughs in the face of danger cause they have 40 all saves and 70 disc etc.

THAT BEING SAID! If you're new to the game and don't know HOW to play around weakness like no discipline (that is preparation (traps, trinkets, allies), kiting (You gonna have perma haste!), choosing when to strike and who and for how long) then going with something well rounded can save you a lot of frustration.

And I would say if you're a pure rogue imp crit is near useless, maybe a +1 average damage or less? (sneak attack isn't multiplied by crits)

Imp Knockdown I also feel is the bread and butter if you want to kill stuff without allies, traps, bombs etc. With true strike it might even win you some easy pvps if done right or against someone who don't know how to react.

So all in all, you don't NEED discipline but your knowledge and gameplay will have to be good enough to play around it if you don't want to get kicked around. (Like I said, kite, switch to ranged, be creative)

[dallion43]

Having a weakness such as no disc is possible, but I usually ask myself a few questions first;
Do I play in a heavy populated time zone? Do I find acquaintances/friends easy? Do I find it super easy to find a team member at any time I would like to go hunting? Did my previous PCs spend in a party at least 90% of their non tavern play time? Do I need any PvP involvement, especially above entry lvl?

In my case the answer to all of the above is a no, and as a result a yes on disc question on all PCs I played.
If in your case the answer to the most of the above is a yes, then a no disc issue can and will be very annoying but won't be deal breaker.

In regards to PvP, you can learn all kind of tricks, but lag/path-finding issues/slight miscalculations/bad starting disposition/F1-F4 players/*add your own*/etc can present a challenge.
If PvP for you isn't a once in a blue moon encounter that you forget the next day then disc is a good idea.

P.C
Search+appraisal can make anyone a team mascot.
Imp.knock, even gutted, is still very useful.
Having 7 attacks will net you 3 on your first flurry.

[calisto]

It warms my heart to receive encouragements. Thanks ! I obviously expect having to be tricky and crafty playing a 30 Rogue, and this is enjoyable to me. I suspect even with a 24/6ftr I would have a bad time progressing solo in epics (I've never got into epics). To me grouping is a much more enjoyable experience anyways.

I am left with one choice though, how to slot in Improved Knockdown, is it worth the sacrifice ? This is my expected draft :

10STR - 18(+2)DEX - 14CON - 14(+2)INT - 8WIS - 8CHA
0(Human) - Ambidexterity
1 - Two Weapon Fighting
3 - Weapon Focus
6 - Expertise
9 - Improved Expertise
10-Crippling Strike
12-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13-Defensive Roll
15-Knockdown
16-Slippery Mind
18-Blind Fight
19-Improved Evasion
21-Epic Weapon Focus
24-Armor Skin, Blinding Speed
27-Epic Dodge
28-ESF:Hide
30-Great DEX

I could do a few things to get IKD :
- start 13STR 17(+2)DEX, drop Great Dex (or 9STR 17(+2)DEX 16(+2)INT ?)
- drop ESF:Hide
- drop Blind Fight (Dust of Appearance?)
- drop Armor Skin (unlikely)
Do any of these options seem worth it to you ? Isn't True Strike + KD pretty much guaranteed in PVP anyways ?

[Ork]

I wouldn't worry about IKD. IKD gives you minimally much of anything since your AB won't be high enough to really capitalize on it. IKD gives you a +4 on your discipline DC, which typically counteracts the -4 AB from knockdown.

If your AB is 45 and you KD, typically your DC would be 41 + 1d20. However, if you take IKD that equation stays at 45 + 1d20. While yes that's better, remember that a lot of characters have disc in the 60s and 70s.

[Gouge Away]

If you're a small sized character IKD actually is pretty important but not so much on humans.

[Poolbrain]

I think improved knockdown is really great, it's +4 ab in terms of beating disc, which is not minimal. But you're pretty feat starved.

The only thing I would even think about swapping it for is E-Focus: Hide.

But judging those rolls, failing a KD roll possibly means you can't kill someone in that round or need to change strategy while failing hide/ms means you're most likely dead against anyone who can consistently spot you when you CS (corner sneak).

That's for PvP though.

For PvE IKD is definitely better than hide focus since it will let you KD larger creatures as well, like dragons. Also increasing your KD consistency against higher disc creatures.