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30 CL & Abj
Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:21 am
by Hazard
How important is it to fit ESF: Abj and Spell Defense: Abj on a pure 30 wizard build?
Still very worth it, even more OP, or missable?
Just curious as to others opinions while I brain storm characters I will probably never play, as usual. For fun.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:22 pm
by Skibbles
I absolutely love ESF focus Abj but I'd say you can probably give a pass on Abj Defense if you're really going to the full 30.
Most important spells that you want to survive a dispel are on the breach list anyway so there's considerably diminishing returns on being a wizard and spending a whole feat that won't be protecting most of your most crucial buffs anyway.
Add on that wizards are not in the best spot right now as they're mostly just haste, disjunction, and zoo buff engines in the end game (unless you're a wild mage last I checked) as well as a growing list of character classes that have +5 weapons, then abjuration is a very strong and in my opinion mandatory pick as it also comes with the two wards on top of a disjunction that will always send someone running or strip that crazy strong gold mob down a peg or two.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 pm
by Polokko
Regarding ESF, disjunction CL normally caps on 22 regardless, so it's just as valuable as on a CL 26/27 wiz, and still probably the most important spell focus to take. The igms immunity is good for pve and if you ever fight a true flame sorc, otherwise chances you'll be getting hit by a disjunction first.
I could be wrong about dispelling maths, someone with esf abj casting disjunction (or greater dispelling) is a d20+26 to dispel rolls, vs 44 with arcane defence rather than a 42 without, so it's still valuable.
d20+22 for a non abjuration wizard, a fair bit less likely to dispel stuff.
I can't remember what the cl of scrolls is but I think it's 17, so (21 with esf abjuration), so no need to worry about them either way.
It still has value against casters, whether it's worth a feat probably depends on how many spell foci you're planning to fit in your build.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:45 am
by Hazard
Thanks guys! That's exactly the insight I was looking for.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:17 am
by Skibbles
It's worth linking the breach list here:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Breach_List
Part of why I argue that Abjuration defense has severe if not outright unhelpful returns on a full 30 caster is on that list.
Unless you're trying to resist Great Dispels, which generally only come from one class (Warlock), getting hit by a Mord's or any of the breach spells will auto-strip most of your important wards anyway without a dispel check. Breach is the real king, but Mord's is the icing on the cake and a wizard's only real contribution in a group pvp - so it serves well to take the ESF, and also serves as a counter to my own argument. Go figure.
While checking the Wiki I also found this helpful page that I didn't know existed until now:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Dispel_Tables
If these numbers are correct then Abj Def seems to squeeze out an extra 10% chance for your non breachable spells to survive. 10% is not insignificant, but with all the options a wizard can get you might be able to find an alternative feat that you will use more consistently through your RP.
Personally I'd rather shuffle things around to maybe get an entire other school up to ESF, or maybe some metamagics instead, but it can probably be argued for eternity as it's going to be entirely subjective based on how much you PVP probably.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:15 am
by Hazard
Skibbles wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:17 am
It's worth linking the breach list here:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Breach_List
Part of why I argue that Abjuration defense has severe if not outright unhelpful returns on a full 30 caster is on that list.
Unless you're trying to resist Great Dispels, which generally only come from one class (Warlock), getting hit by a Mord's or any of the breach spells will auto-strip most of your important wards anyway without a dispel check. Breach is the real king, but Mord's is the icing on the cake and a wizard's only real contribution in a group pvp - so it serves well to take the ESF, and also serves as a counter to my own argument. Go figure.
While checking the Wiki I also found this helpful page that I didn't know existed until now:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Dispel_Tables
If these numbers are correct then Abj Def seems to squeeze out an extra 10% chance for your non breachable spells to survive. 10% is not insignificant, but with all the options a wizard can get you might be able to find an alternative feat that you will use more consistently through your RP.
Personally I'd rather shuffle things around to maybe get an entire other school up to ESF, or maybe some metamagics instead, but it can probably be argued for eternity as it's going to be entirely subjective based on how much you PVP probably.
Ohh, that's all perfect, thanks!
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:39 pm
by Seven Sons of Sin
What personally blew my mind is that when you "dispel", you roll an individual dispel check vs. every buff of the target. This makes a 10% difference in dispelling chance swing a lot, lot harder. It makes Abjuration that much stronger.
(For whatever reason, I always thought dispelling previous was 1 check per the whole of the target.)
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:50 pm
by AstralUniverse
Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:39 pm
What personally blew my mind is that when you "dispel", you roll an individual dispel check vs. every buff of the target. This makes a 10% difference in dispelling chance swing a lot, lot harder. It makes Abjuration that much stronger.
(For whatever reason, I always thought dispelling previous was 1 check per the whole of the target.)
How is the difference between a single roll for all buffs instead of separated rolls for each buff changes the value of these 10% difference of arcane defense? Mathematically speaking, its the same thing. You can apply those 10% to one roll for all buffs or for any amount of rolls separately. its the same value.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:19 pm
by Drowble Oh Seven
Not necessarily - If the measure of success is 'Do I keep all my buffs?' then a 90% success rate rolled individually for each will result in losing more, more often, than one big roll. On phone, so math is brief, but:
If it's one roll - 90% chance you keep buffs. Cool.
If it's 90% per buff - say you've got three. Chance you keep the first is 90%. Chance you keep second and first is 90% x 90%. Chance to keep all three is 90% × 90% x 90% = 73%, and so on.
The more buffs you have, the more dice get rolled, the more likely you lose at least one.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:32 pm
by Seven Sons of Sin
Yeah, how many buffs, on average, would a caster have (or like to have) when engaging in PvP? 12ish? A non-caster has a few less?
If you're dispelling a caster with a Mords, post-breach, you're rolling 12 dice. One for each buff. Let's say, pre-ESF, you have to roll a 18-20 to successful dispel.
1d20, must get 18-20, 12 times.
If you can lower than to 16-20? over 12 rolls? big difference. way bigger than if it was a single roll.
The downside is that the dispeller doesn't know what they've dispelled, but the target does. I wish that could be communicated better, and it demonstrates how Arelith/NWN doesn't always support PvP well.
Needless to say, in terms of arcane casting, one of your exclusive abilities in your kit is Mords. No one else gets it, save the few Lore-heavy builds casting from a scroll (who are using it more for a breach than a dispel).
Abjuration is arguably the spell school for arcane casters. In terms of narrative and mechanics, its probably the most unique things wizards/sorcerers offer - outside of Mass Haste.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:51 pm
by AstralUniverse
Drowble Oh Seven wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:19 pm
Not necessarily - If the measure of success is 'Do I keep all my buffs?' then a 90% success rate rolled individually for each will result in losing more, more often, than one big roll. On phone, so math is brief, but:
If it's one roll - 90% chance you keep buffs. Cool.
If it's 90% per buff - say you've got three. Chance you keep the first is 90%. Chance you keep second and first is 90% x 90%. Chance to keep all three is 90% × 90% x 90% = 73%, and so on.
The more buffs you have, the more dice get rolled, the more likely you lose at least one.
Yes, because it's roll per buff you're not likely to keep all your buffs. The more buffs you have, the more buffs you lose, statistically, as opposed to having flat 10% to lose all your buffs in one roll, which is arguably worse. Math says, in both cases arcane defense has the same value. Abjuration is still probably the best school to pick for mages, no argument there.
Re: 30 CL & Abj
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:56 pm
by Hazard
That breach list is really making me lean towards a build that has ESF: Abj and doesn't bother with arcane defense.
Which is pretty good, because it frees me up to craft potions and wands on the same character.
I'm still a bit on the fence, but all the suggestions are really helping.. and I've learned a bunch about dispelling I somehow didn't know before, even after all this time.