A Certain Kind of Spellsword

[Goromir]

I sought advice on this months before on a different username, but I'm back with more realistic expectations.

Initially I wanted something like 15 spellsword/15 rogue to work but was advised throughly against it (dispell bait, generally delayed casting, etc).

What I really want is access to a class with the set trap skill, because that's just my thing. Is there ANY combination of spellsword and ranger or rogue or possibly assasin that could work?

I'd like a build with more than 3 levels as a skill dump in the other class if possible, because I want to be able to use my favorite skill before end levels.

I was thinking 5 or 6 ranger/ the rest spellsword for improved BaB, a couple archery feats for switch hitting and access to my favorite skill throughout my leveling.

I was also thinking 5 or 6 rogue/the rest spell sword for lots of skills plus tumble.

Any thoughts on weather these would work or any better ideas? My only requirements is that it be a dex based spellsword with access to the set trap skill.

[Archnon]

Ranger gets you pre epic full bab. So you can do 4 pre-epic and max apr and one post. That also gets you two extra feats that can go towards spell focus..

Rogue would get you finesse freeing up a feat if you take it early. Plus access to tumble. Tough choice.

**EDIT**

So thinking about this more, 2 things come to mind. Ranger also nets your discipline which is nice on a dex build. Rogue however gets you remove trap. Having played around with trap based characters, this will be the main way you get your good traps and it can be useful to dump 10 points into. So some options.

25 SS - 5 Ranger - 1 extra GSF and 1 epic feat, but have to cross class tumble. Decently robust to dispell
26 SS - 4 Rogue - 1 extra pre-epic if you take it early. You can go 25-5 too to space out your tumble.

Or if you arent worried about dispells:

21 SS and....
5 ranger, 4 rogue - Best of both worls but dispellable.
5 ranger, 3 specialist - For tumble
5 ranger, 4 monk - Tumble, ubab commmong build


other combos im sure.

[ZombieDuck]

22 SS/5 Ranger/3 Rog.

16 SS/4 Ranger Pre-epic would give 4 attacks, +1 Greater Spell Foc Feat and Set Trap skill for leveling.
5th Ranger and 3 Rogue at epic would give epic feat(Epic Prowess?), allow you to put more points to discipline, Evasion from rogue, UMD from Rogue(For Moonblade for example), 30 Tumble for AC and the rest of Rogue skills(Appraise, Disarm Trap, Open Lock).

With Abjuration Defense you'll be able to prevent getting dispelled so easily and still getting all the essentials:
Greater Imbue, EMA, 30 Tumble, Evasion, Set Trap, 4 attacks + haste(+1 from dual-wielding if you care for that), decent AC/AB/Dmg/HP/Saves and 9th level spells.

Don't know what you ment by 'Archery fits', though.

[Goromir]

I meant archery FEATS! Sorry, fits was a typo, corrected it.

This is some excellent advice and you've both made this thing seem so clear to me. Thank you!!!

EDIT:

I may skimp on disable divice, only taking the one rank for recovering my own traps. It seems useful for recovering epic traps but I'll probably mostly pay/beg for those.

So far I think my skills are gonna be

1) Hide
2) Move Silently
3) Spot
4) Set Trap
5) Craft Trap
6) Discipline
7) Tumble
8) Search
9) Spellcraft

With 20 int post gift and human I think I'll have enough skill points to eventually *nearly* max out all of these, with the one Disable Divice rank.

[Archnon]

If you can take spell sword not at your first level using the -path command I would seriously consider going rogue 4 and taking rogue as your first 3. You get finesse for free netting you an extra feat. Getting uncanny will help immensely with survival early. Not to mention a larger skill dump to start. The tradoff is that your tumble dump is still delayed (it would have been anyways) and more importantly it will delay high tier casting. Your pre-epic would be 3 rogue 4 ranger 13 ss. You won't get 9th circle spells until level 24 under this design. Bit of a trade off but an idea if you are feat starved.

Also, you can gear for craft trap and right now I think set trap doubles as craft trap so don't bother with it. You do want disable trap though.

One other thing to consider might be dumping rogue and taking swash for tumble dump. Nets some decent bonus damage. I'd go rogue though

[Bunnysmack]

I was thinking 5 or 6 ranger/ the rest spellsword for improved BaB, a couple archery feats for switch hitting

I really would not take any archery feats that require you to buy them (if they are free bonuses from the class dips you take, then go for it though). The bonuses from ranger are to give you discipline, set trap, some bonus magic feat(s), and more BAB. The archery bonuses, if any, will not really be huge game changers for you at such an early level of ranger, and you will very much NOT want to take archer path if you plan to be a melee dex spellsword (also, not sure if you even CAN take archer path if you are also on spellword path, IIRC there was a mechanical limitation issue of having multiple paths in the same build). Free dual wielding feats are a very big plus for this build.

Have a bow as a backup, and cause you are dex based, you'll be decently accurate, but it is just that: A backup. Your ranged options are largely related to using ice storm, darkbolt, IGMS, and certain area effects that don't require an overly high DC to be effective.

Unfortunately, the way that the AB vs. AC arms race goes, if you invest feats in two different styles of combat, you will end up being rather impotent in both forms of combat. Ditto for DPS vs. HP/DR. You can't SS imbue a bow, and that is where a lot of your damage is coming from. I would not expect your ranged DPS to be anything to write home about, but that is 100% okay, because your traps, your high APR melee imbue DPS, and your 9th circle spellcasting all create options that will be effective in place of using a bow.

[Goromir]

Thanks for the advice everyone

Can this build sacrifice spellcraft? I seem to need a lot of skills

If you're saying I do need disable divice is it something I must max out?

How would the default TWF help me with this build? I thought spellswords were supposed to use one weapon

[Bunnysmack]

You need 26 spellcraft to take epic mage armor, and trust me: you do want epic mage armor. You don't strictly need to put in any more than 26 ranks, however, and the difference of 7 ranks will only mean at most a +2 drop in spell saves, so you can certainly make do without those last 7 points in the skill if you are hurting on points.

Keep in mind, if you start with rogue you get a lot of extra skill points (class skill pointsX4 at first level), and you need a base intelligence score of at least 19 to use 9th circle spells. Altogether, that will mean you have a fair number of skill points, by nature of how high your int has to be.

[Archnon]

So, you can set something like this up in a google spreadsheet but here. First number is assigned points. Second number is points left:

Skills 293
Discipline 33 260
Tumble 30 230
Lore 30 200
Heal 1 199
Lock 2 197
Set Trap 33 164
Disable T 10 154
Conc 33 121
Spellcraft 33 88
Spot 33 55
Hide 33 22
MS 33 -11
Search 33 -44

Right now with that spread, that assumes you take rogue first and you max your int at 20 to start and your not a human. So yeah, you have a lot of skill needs. If you are playing this as a human, you can add 33 and you are only 10 shy. I assumed max concentration but maybe someone who has played a wizard would recommend something different. You can gear for set trap if you want and save some there. I would consider...

Drop set trap to 25 - so -8 (You need to gear for it then)
Drop search to 20 - so -13 (You can always cast detect traps)
Drop lore to 20 - so -13 (You have access to spells already)
Drop Hide and MS by 8 - so -16 (gotta cut somewhere)

That gets you to 50.... meaning you can put six back in where you want.... you get the idea. That is me though.

[ZombieDuck]

If I'm not wrong, starting with rogue and going 3 Rogue/4 Ranger/13 SS pre-epic only nets you 3 attacks per round(+ haste), because 1st level of every 4 levels of Rogue/SS do not grant Base Attack Bonus.

So 3 rogue would net 2 BA, 4 Ranger 4 BA and 13 SS 9 BA, totaling 15.
Sadly I don't see good solutions to this since if you want to start with Rogue you'd ether need to take 5 Ranger/3 Rogue pre-epic or 4 Rogue/4 Ranger pre-epic, both pushing non Spellsword levels to 8 at pre-epic, leaving no room to take Rogues skilldump level at epic and still have 22 SS to get dispel protection(With Abjuration: Defense).

On Arelith Ranger gets 6+int mod worth of skillpoints, so maybe start with Ranger instead? Go something like 3 Ranger - Some SS untill you feel like you need to get another boost to Set Trap, then take that 4th pre-epic Ranger level while still leaving 3 Rogue levels to epics(25th earliest since you need 27th level to get 30 tumble and you need to take 3 min).

As for skills to save points on, you'll need to decide the exact numbers on how much to spent on each skills.

Lore is great for comfort and scrolls, but you're already a wizard with high int, so you have spells and some lore on your own and you can just use +5 rings at start.

Discipline is ofcourse important since it can give you almost immunity to KD/Disarm/Called Shot, but as dexer you'll probably have to max it and take ESF + gear for it to get it high enought.

HIDE/MS/Spot are all a bit special since what you need in these totally depend on who you're againts. Picking one of the starting gift to boost ether Spot or Hide/MS gives fair bit of boost here and taking Skill Focus in Hide/MS is just one feat, but you're unlikely to pick Skill Focuses on both Hide/MS and Spot. Some of your spells will also boost Spot, even if they don't last too long.

Craft Trap/Set Trap "In order to make a trap: Character needs to have required points in skill Craft Trap or Set Trap (whichever skill is higher will be used)." reads on the Wiki. So if I'm understanding that right you only need Set Trap.

UMD 30 gives you access to Moonblade, which is +4 enchant, 2d8 vs Undead. keen and Runic(So probably add another 1d4 dmg) + Perma and Temp Essences. +4 Enchant won't penetrate Stoneskin like any bronze weapon you cast GMW to will, but for most stuff it's better and I dislike the idea of using a bronze weapon as your go-to at epic. UMD also gives you access to some trinkets and wands.

And Spellswords do get Shield AC worth wizard level/6+1 to a maximum of 6 at 30, but with 22 SS that's 4 AC which is less than Greensteel Large Shield(5), which is 0 ASF with Spellsword and you can enchant it with runes to get more stats, so it's best to use that if you're not pure SS. Now while having just one extra attack from 1st level ranger dual-wielding is not much, there are situations where you aren't hit almost all and can just trade that AC for another attack(Which is at full AB), even with the -2 AB to all attacks.

Hope all of that made sense.

[Goromir]

This is all making sense.

It's a lot of information for my disorganized mind to unpack, but it all seems intelligible. I'll make some decisions as to the final skill and ability score distribution tomorrow and come back with any questions.

I must say, the spellsword is fascinating and with some complicated building and whatnot seems to really open some doors.

In my 15 years playing neverwinter all I really wanted to do was make a stealthy trapper who could chuck some fear or black tentacle spells at people while still being good at sneaking around and combat. It was never even remotely possible before Arelith and the spellsword. I don't think this will be a power build but it seems like it's gonna be so much fun to play.

[Bunnysmack]

This is all making sense.

It's a lot of information for my disorganized mind to unpack, but it all seems intelligible. I'll make some decisions as to the final skill and ability score distribution tomorrow and come back with any questions.

I must say, the spellsword is fascinating and with some complicated building and whatnot seems to really open some doors.

In my 15 years playing neverwinter all I really wanted to do was make a stealthy trapper who could chuck some fear or black tentacle spells at people while still being good at sneaking around and combat. It was never even remotely possible before Arelith and the spellsword. I don't think this will be a power build but it seems like it's gonna be so much fun to play.

If throwing random effects at people is your jam, you might just wanted to go with one of the rogue-heavy builds, actually. The various rogue grenades, along with the fact that rogues get bonuses to using alchemy-made grenades, means you can totally be that guy that chucks some crazy effects and as a rogue you would be better at the sneaky, stealthy, trappy part of the game. A LOT better. The unfortunate thing about the rogue/ranger/SS combo is you need REALLY high int, REALLY high dex, and still need enough room for decent con and some strength (cause your gear will have weight). It's a tricky balancing act getting ALL those things at once.

If the spellsword hybrid is still your jam though, I 100% agree with the above post that recommends starting with ranger. I actually forgot that Arelith increased their skill points, so the additional BAB that route would give you is 100% the way to go.

[Archnon]

This is all making sense.

It's a lot of information for my disorganized mind to unpack, but it all seems intelligible. I'll make some decisions as to the final skill and ability score distribution tomorrow and come back with any questions.

I must say, the spellsword is fascinating and with some complicated building and whatnot seems to really open some doors.

In my 15 years playing neverwinter all I really wanted to do was make a stealthy trapper who could chuck some fear or black tentacle spells at people while still being good at sneaking around and combat. It was never even remotely possible before Arelith and the spellsword. I don't think this will be a power build but it seems like it's gonna be so much fun to play.

If throwing random effects at people is your jam, you might just wanted to go with one of the rogue-heavy builds, actually. The various rogue grenades, along with the fact that rogues get bonuses to using alchemy-made grenades, means you can totally be that guy that chucks some crazy effects and as a rogue you would be better at the sneaky, stealthy, trappy part of the game. A LOT better. The unfortunate thing about the rogue/ranger/SS combo is you need REALLY high int, REALLY high dex, and still need enough room for decent con and some strength (cause your gear will have weight). It's a tricky balancing act getting ALL those things at once.

If the spellsword hybrid is still your jam though, I 100% agree with the above post that recommends starting with ranger. I actually forgot that Arelith increased their skill points, so the additional BAB that route would give you is 100% the way to go.

Totally right about the 3 APR thing. Blasted groups of 4.

So the problem with starting ranger is you are burning one of the two bonus feats that makes ranger a worthwhile dip. If you are dipping 5 ranger then you get two FE feats. If you take ranger later, you can use the first one for a Greater Spell focus. If you take it on the first level, you can only take a favored enemy that will have no effect because of low levels.

You could start rogue and take your 4th rogue level at 20. That would net you 20 tumble and you just wouldn't dip rogue in the epics. You would gain 1AC from the no rogue dip and still net good skill points. Delays casting a bit longer though as you would be taking 9 levels of wizard in epic.

Might be better to cut down on the skills you want to take and just start wizard instead and save rogue for a final dip too.

Or you can play it as a gnome and take GSF illusion if that is one you want to match your trickery. Honestly a trap setting spell sword sounds very gnomish to me. Run out of the Turret

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Isn't 22 CL + 2 from Abjuration Defense (24 in all) really low?

Like you get blown out of the water as soon as anyone drops a Mord's. Based off the table, and some napkin math, each buff has a 30~% of dispel against a non-abjurer, and like a 55~% chance if they are an abjurer?

That can be a big roll of the dice since Spellswords are so reliant on their Caster Level.

I wouldn't say this not-doable, but you have to play really smart and have a pretty good knowledge of the server. There are also high/epic level dungeons where dispels are encountered, and they could just tear you a part.

[Mattamue]

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Dispel_Tables#Quick_Summary

Has a breakdown of the different caster levels versus the types of dispellers you'll find.

[Bunnysmack]

Well, yeah. It's a given that this build would be major dispel-bait, but I think the OP is okay with that from the dialogue thus far. Still, would be a good idea to make sure they are fully aware of what that will end up looking like...

[Goromir]

After reviewing my options and reading what some of you had to say, bearing in mind that there was some disagreement I decided to go with the following.

4 rogue
5 ranger
21 Spellsword

Sadly for BaB/skill reasons the rogue levels are all pre-epic. This means I won't go past 20 ranks in tumble but it also gives me that glorious boatload of skill ranks at level 1, keeps me at 4 attacks and saves some skill points that can be transferred elsewhere from tumble.

4 ranger pre epic gets me my 4th attack and a final 5th level at 30 lets me skill dump on Hide/MS/set trap/spot/discipline. I've heard some noise about how you no longer need both set and craft trap but can use the higher of the two, but my reading of the relevant blog post suggests this is a temporary thing and so I'll assume a need for both. Also, I didn't realize that ranger taken late can net you a spell focus instead of a favored enemy, which offers synergy. I've been hearing the word abjuration a lot, is it my only viable option?

I have a rough idea of how to proceed from here without botching the character. I plan on the following:

Str 10
Dex 15 (17)
Con 12
Int 18 (20)
Wis 8
Cha 8

I realize this array has significant weaknesses. I won't get access to a single ranger spell, even when they have level one gems like camouflage that I want. My HP will be mediocre. With no strength modifier I'll have to use light gear and will be entirely reliant on magical buffs, traps and whatever tricks I can pull out of my pocket to do damage, I may even spend most of my time expertise tanking during PvE play.

I anticipate that high level dungeons may be difficult for this character as he is a dispellable little weenie, but my main joy is PvP and I think he may be a real terror against opponents who cannot dispel or who are caught unawares in times of war.

Let me know if there are any non negotiable must have feats. I'm committed to taking SF set trap and ESF set trap for personal flavor reasons, and I am biased towards expertise, improved expertise, knockdown and improved knockdown which I will take unless they are strongly recommend against.