Harper Changes

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Lunargent
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Harper Changes

Post by Lunargent » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Hi, overall I'm pretty happy about the changes, but I wanted to bring up a few points of consideration and maybe others could join in.

Paragon:
While I'm really, really glad that they got divine grace back and feel that the class is in a good place once again, could it be made possible to take the Great Charisma feats in epics? That feat is pretty essential to give paragons the extra boost they need to get in the +9-10 zone most divbuilds want to be in.

Scout:
Giving them UMD as a skill and rogue feats opens the door for Weaponmasters with crippling strike. That gives me bad feelings. Perhaps it could be changed so that you need rogue levels to access these feats?

Mage&Priest:
Can item creation feats be added to the feat selection? Many among the Harpers are artificers, especially to help supply their agents.

Anyone else feel free to chime in!

Quidix
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Quidix » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:26 pm

Lunargent wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:01 pm
Mage&Priest:
Can item creation feats be added to the feat selection? Many among the Harpers are artificers, especially to help supply their agents.
Sounds good!

Lunargent wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:01 pm
Paragon:
While I'm really, really glad that they got divine grace back and feel that the class is in a good place once again, could it be made possible to take the Great Charisma feats in epics? That feat is pretty essential to give paragons the extra boost they need to get in the +9-10 zone most divbuilds want to be in.
Not a huge change, but they already got Divine Grace and High BAB, which are pretty substantial buffs.

Lunargent wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:01 pm
Scout:
Giving them UMD as a skill and rogue feats opens the door for Weaponmasters with crippling strike. That gives me bad feelings. Perhaps it could be changed so that you need rogue levels to access these feats?
I find the new way to access rogue feats refreshing and opens up some new doors and two new ways to get UMD access (Harper Scout and Master Harper). If this truly becomes a strong meta, it could be revisted, but not convinced of such a pre-emptive change.

On another note, did Harper Scout lose the 2d6 sneak dice it used to get? If so, that is a pretty serious blow...

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Dean
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Dean » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:57 pm

Even with the feat investment of Harper Scout, 1 level of Harper Scout should not give you the bonus feat of a 10th level rogue. Not only does this make the already strong Rogue/Harper Scout/Fighter build even stronger (Allowing them to also pick up Slippery Mind, another epic skill focus, a point of dex, another d6 of sneak attack damage or something else), it also allows anyone that replaces rogue with Harper Scout to be exponentially stronger.

Crippling Strike is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, pre-epic feat.

Crippling Strike on a weapon master turns them from a rather strong class to a rather oppressive one. Not only do they get the high damage and AB of a weaponmaster, they also reduce the strength of any target they get a sneak attack on. They become incredibly strong duelists while losing little.

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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Quidix » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:02 pm

Dean wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:57 pm
Allowing them to also pick up Slippery Mind, another epic skill focus, a point of dex, another d6 of sneak attack damage or something else)
Let's be clear, they can only pick one of those above and beyond crippling strike, not all. The feats are at the cost of investing 2 feats to take the class, so it's feat neutral (invest 2 to take class, gain 2 rogue feats; ESF: Bluff is not a mechanically useful feat). Compare this to Harper Paragon that net gains 3 useful feats (-2+5), Harper Priest that net gains 2 useful feats (-2+4) and Harper Mage that net gains 1-4 feats (-2+3/5 depending if all of ESF Concentration/Spellcraft/SP/GSP deemed useful).

On the point of 'straight upgrades', isn't the new Harper Paragon a straight upgrade from a paladin / BG dip at this point? (which are commonly regarded as some of the most powerful class dips; it now has Divine grace and High BAB, so at least 'on par', and now gains a ton of feats as above).

If purely about limiting crippling strike, then fair enough. Locking out all rogue feats feels excessive though, as that leaves almost no other options for non-rogues, and then there's no point in picking it (and indeed weak relative to other harper classes).

Finally, when testing on PGCC, Harper Scout did not get any sneak attack (unclear if this is intentional), which is indeed a pretty major loss.

Lunargent
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Lunargent » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:27 pm

Quidix wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:02 pm
Dean wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:57 pm
Allowing them to also pick up Slippery Mind, another epic skill focus, a point of dex, another d6 of sneak attack damage or something else)
Let's be clear, they can only pick one of those above and beyond crippling strike, not all. The feats are at the cost of investing 2 feats to take the class, so it's feat neutral (invest 2 to take class, gain 2 rogue feats; ESF: Bluff is not a mechanically useful feat). Compare this to Harper Paragon that net gains 3 useful feats (-2+5), Harper Priest that net gains 2 useful feats (-2+4) and Harper Mage that net gains 1-4 feats (-2+3/5 depending if all of ESF Concentration/Spellcraft/SP/GSP deemed useful).

On the point of 'straight upgrades', isn't the new Harper Paragon a straight upgrade from a paladin / BG dip at this point? (which are commonly regarded as some of the most powerful class dips; it now has Divine grace and High BAB, so at least 'on par', and now gains a ton of feats as above).

If purely about limiting crippling strike, then fair enough. Locking out all rogue feats feels excessive though, as that leaves almost no other options for non-rogues, and then there's no point in picking it (and indeed weak relative to other harper classes).

Finally, when testing on PGCC, Harper Scout did not get any sneak attack (unclear if this is intentional), which is indeed a pretty major loss.
"Saves WM" is a pretty popular build already, so forcing them to take iron will and alertness (since they can get pretty good detect as well if you're willing to spend the dosh gearing for it) isn't really a blow to their effectiveness at all.

And no, Paragon isn't better than Paladin dip. It's probably about on par with BG dip, though. Fear immunity is big, really big, especially if you're not a class with high will save. It's especially not equal since you can't take Great Charisma to get into the +9/10 range that the other two can more easily get, which really limits the options of, for example, people who want to play a divine ranger or rogue with this class. The MADness is real.

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Zavandar
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Zavandar » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:25 pm

Also tested on the PGCC, Harper classes don't seem to add dweomercrafting tiers.
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Sea Shanties
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:30 am

Harper mage doesn't have access to the discipline skill.. I think this is a change, right? Is it intentional?

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Sockss
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Sockss » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:59 am

Summation:

HM nerfed.
HS way stronger.
HPa way stronger. (Better than a pala dip; spend 2 pre-epic feats, get 2 pre-epic feats for free, no PA requirement (So another saved feat), no 14 str requirement, +2 improved list bonus feats which can be epic)

HPr (Stronger slightly, due to feat selection)
MH (Stronger slightly, due to feat selection)


They were pretty okay previously, I'm not sure what spurred the change.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

TimeAdept
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:28 pm

Paragon is better than paladin dip if you're trying to be the absolute unit and do a Dexadin, or are doing the Ranger build, but otherwise, Paladin dip is still better.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:10 am

The main reason id object crippling strike for harper is that it's one of the useful cookie making a dex wm with more rogue levels actaully worth while

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Sockss
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Sockss » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:52 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:28 pm
Paragon is better than paladin dip if you're trying to be the absolute unit and do a Dexadin, or are doing the Ranger build, but otherwise, Paladin dip is still better.
Arguably on a sorcadin (as you'll net 2 cl) but not for anything else.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Quidix
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Quidix » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:54 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:10 am
The main reason id object crippling strike for harper is that it's one of the useful cookie making a dex wm with more rogue levels actaully worth while
Fair point - on this note, I think restricting Crippling Strike specifically would seem fair.

On paladin dip vs Harper Paragon, I guess it depends on preference and build. Basically it's fear immunity vs 3 feats (2 of which epic).

Kalopsia
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Kalopsia » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:57 pm

Technically, Harper Scout doesn’t get Sneak Attacks anymore since the update, so Crippling Strike should do nothing unless the build in question already has a source of sneak damage.
Someone should probably test this on PGCC :)

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Imperatrix
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Imperatrix » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:57 am

Kalopsia wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:57 pm
Technically, Harper Scout doesn’t get Sneak Attacks anymore since the update, so Crippling Strike should do nothing unless the build in question already has a source of sneak damage.
Someone should probably test this on PGCC :)
That's correct. I tested with a fighter/wm/harper scout a few days ago and crippling strike did nothing.

garrbear758
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:49 am

I'd also like to point out that this allows anyone access to epic dodge with 5 levels in harper and 3 levels in rogue, while still having 25 CL. This opens up new builds for dex spellsword, paladin, ranger, and battlecleric which are locked behind a token and being in a specific guild.

I think the rogue bonus feats would be better off being removed. Otherwise, epic dodge spellswords are going to be the new monk.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:33 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:49 am
I'd also like to point out that this allows anyone access to epic dodge with 5 levels in harper and 3 levels in rogue, while still having 25 CL. This opens up new builds for dex spellsword, paladin, ranger, and battlecleric which are locked behind a token and being in a specific guild.

I think the rogue bonus feats would be better off being removed. Otherwise, epic dodge spellswords are going to be the new monk.
I was just thinking about that. So many more epic dodge options.

Not sure its going to be new monks. What happened with monks is they were given EVERYTHING they were missing except umd. The missing and damage for no fighter levels and the missing epic dodge for no rogue/SD and not evrn having to spend an epic feat on it. Str base spellsword is just so viable compared to dex that i dont think the ability to choose epic dodge ad s feat will break anything.

Having certain builds like a viable dex SS locked behind a very restricted prestige class though
Is blah

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Ork
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Ork » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:28 am

Dex spellsword, paladin, ranger, etc. are woefully underpowered compared to their str counterparts if they have to dip 3 rogue and 5 Harper.

That really isn't a concern.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:00 am

I'm still curious about Harper Mage no longer having access to discipline. That seems like it would make 25 wiz or sorc/5 HM unviable, are they now supposed to dip bard as well to make up for it?

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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:11 am

With the exception of bards (Kudos if you go a full bard- I've done it once elsewhere, and it was fun, but doing anything solo was incredibly rough early on), I think the direction the Dev Team is taking is that no caster level 30 character should have access to discipline as a class skill.

I'm sad about it, but I can still get AQ3 without getting it for free, so I'll live - and the spell penetration bonus is nice.

What I would like to see (and would have liked to see for a while, but now seems better to mention it than before) is some kind of Harper Bonus to spot, specifically and only for breaking disguises - since their whole class motif benefits from the use of bluff and disguising. In that vein, perhaps make it a synergy bonus derived from some portion of their base bluff ranks, or a smaller portion of their modified ranks. 30% of base bluff or 15% of modified bluff? An average (at level 30) bonus of 9 (round down) or on a really kitted out character something like 13 or so with the modified system. Significant enough to make a difference with disguises if you put cross-class ranks into spot, but not enough to overtake an actual spotter.

I'm aware actual spot ranks have further reaching ramifications, but would something like this be possible? Because I think it would be neat and make a lot of sense.
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Sea Shanties
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Re: Harper Changes

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:34 am

Harper Priests do still get discipline, though, so while your theory make sense I'm still not sure.

I'm also not sure if the increased caster levels from harper apply to dispel DCs, if they do then a 22 wiz/5 harper/3 ranger or bard is still decent. If not then harper mages are significantly worse one way or the other now, I think.

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