About AC.

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Jencent
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About AC.

Post by Jencent » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:47 pm

Arelith is low-magic area, that's mean we can finde 5+ armour, bracer and more interesting stuff. Also we have 30lvl as highest level. In the case of balance Arelith's DMs deleted feat "Devastating Critical", but what about other feats which can broke the balance? At this thread i wanna talk about Epic Mage Armour, whic is equal +5 gear. Some of REALLY OP builds have EMA as a main (Lol, you are a pure Fighter with 45~AB? Then try to roll d20 to hit me, because i have 70+ AC).

This "problem" solves by self on highest levels, where fighters classes recive strong gear, but... Arelith is low-magic server.

I'm very disapoint, when my fighters with really good AB can't do anythik to a mage, when he can melt me in one second.

Only me found this position a bit not fair?

To be clear: This thread is not about builds, this thread about EMA as epic feat.
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Re: About AC.

Post by Ork » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:18 pm

EMA is honestly balanced and not an issue what-so-ever. The three builds that typically grab EMA are spellswords, Palemaster, & sorcadins.

Spellswords had the overall ac reduced by 4 from EMA and achieve AC comparable to a cleric which isn't overkill at all.

Palemaster had a needed nerf to their ac and melee Palemaster are rarely credible threats based on their ab.

Sorcadins get around 67 AC due to divine shield, and honestly these are so rare it's not even worth mentioning.

If you're not hitting a mage with EMA, there are tools in your tool basket. Potions of true strike will overcome EMA on a high AB character.

If you're concerned about EMA being unfair, I think you'd need to first look at your own build and AB. You should be hitting sometimes if you've a high AB character.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Apothys » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:10 pm

I agree with the OP here. EMA is very powerful and almost unhittable without a natural 20 or taking truestrike potions every other round (which in itself brings more woes). Even if you build for it mostly.

However, this only really applies to people who build for the max AC, which is mostly pvp minded folk. As for lowering there AC, hit them with some wands of breach or have a mage or priest Mord them a few times, that should help. Even though i think its powerful I dont think its broken. Honestly i rarely see it on players i fight.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Ork » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:32 pm

I hate to say it, but you're mathematically wrong here. Max AC for these builds are around 57-67. A truestrike potion on a high AB character would yield an AB of 25 (BAB) + 16 (STR or DEX) + 3 WF + 1 Prowess + 20 truestrike for 65 AB. 65 + 1d20 means you're hitting 100% to 85% of the time on the first strike and -25% on each additional strike. You could hit these builds dependably. If you're swinging 45 AB on a maxed out fighter, the fault lies within your build and not EMA.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:52 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:32 pm
I hate to say it, but you're mathematically wrong here. Max AC for these builds are around 57-67. A truestrike potion on a high AB character would yield an AB of 25 (BAB) + 16 (STR or DEX) + 3 WF + 1 Prowess + 20 truestrike for 65 AB. 65 + 1d20 means you're hitting 100% to 85% of the time on the first strike and -25% on each additional strike. You could hit these builds dependably. If you're swinging 45 AB on a maxed out fighter, the fault lies within your build and not EMA.
Are you counting Expertise? Before nerfs my caster PM could reach 77 AC with IE. Bone Skin AC nerfs brought that down by 3 or 4, cannot recall. That is still 73AC, and one can probably get more with a divine sorcerer built for that.

But I sorta agree that EMA by itself is not broken. You need a lot more than EMA to reach these AC levels, and not without giving up somewhere else.

There are also builds that can reliably beat even these AC levels, such as Arcane Archers and certain cleric builds.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Ork » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:21 pm

IE on a caster? That's not a factor or shouldn't be a factor. IE automatically drops on casting, and retriggering the combat stance is cumbersome at best. If there is a caster with IE, you just have to wait for them to cast for them to lose their AC.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Apothys » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:29 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:32 pm
I hate to say it, but you're mathematically wrong here. Max AC for these builds are around 57-67. A truestrike potion on a high AB character would yield an AB of 25 (BAB) + 16 (STR or DEX) + 3 WF + 1 Prowess + 20 truestrike for 65 AB. 65 + 1d20 means you're hitting 100% to 85% of the time on the first strike and -25% on each additional strike. You could hit these builds dependably. If you're swinging 45 AB on a maxed out fighter, the fault lies within your build and not EMA.
I dont think a player should have to have 20 levels of a warrior class, Max Strength or Dex to even come close to hitting a fully warded mage with EMA, nevermind closing the distance, dealing with summons while dropping his own expertise to attempt downing a potion of truestrike for a round. Just so they have a round of potentialy hitting other wards on a Mage. However again... I dont have any real complaints but im merely stating its an extremely powerful Spell.

Also im not sure its a fault with 'my' build, merely the effects of a powerful feat that others are forced to build around to try and beat.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Ork » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:21 pm

I mean, this goes back to the whole paper-scissors-rock configuration of counters in NWN. I'm sorry you feel like you don't deserve to be a part of that dynamic because you're not a good counter to that specific mage. Not every build is going to be successful against every other build.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Apothys » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:34 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:21 pm
I mean, this goes back to the whole paper-scissors-rock configuration of counters in NWN. I'm sorry you feel like you don't deserve to be a part of that dynamic because you're not a good counter to that specific mage. Not every build is going to be successful against every other build.
In answer to your post, we were discussing Warriors vs Mages AC. I was merely stating the flaws a warrior has when facing a mage, I wasnt calling for a nerf, just stating it was very powerful. Your answer is to try and belittle me. You do realise we can discuss this without you constantly taking small jabs at me every time you post? Just makes you look bad mate and you really need to stop doing that to people, its not nice.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:21 pm
IE on a caster? That's not a factor or shouldn't be a factor. IE automatically drops on casting, and retriggering the combat stance is cumbersome at best. If there is a caster with IE, you just have to wait for them to cast for them to lose their AC.
If the IE is deterring you from attacking then it is actually a factor. As is throwing summons and then turtling in IE if someone tries to go for you. It is also extremely useful when caught out of position as well as for PvE.

Reactivating it is definitely cumbersome, you actually need to move before you can IE after casting a spell. But it saved my character's live more times than I can count.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Nevrus » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:47 pm

There actually is a melee counter to unhittable AC and it's MORE ATTACKS

This is a niche that monks, dual wielders, and thundering rage barbarians fit nicely in. Some of them may have less overall AB than a comparable character built specifically for AB, and other weaknesses, but when it's quantity over quality, that's the solution to the problem.

A lot of high-end PVP between warriors already devolves to both fishing for 20s with IE on when everyone has maxed out buffs and builds.

Of course, I am a bad source in information on this... FOR NOW
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Re: About AC.

Post by Ork » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:19 pm

Apothys wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:34 pm
Ork wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:21 pm
I mean, this goes back to the whole paper-scissors-rock configuration of counters in NWN. I'm sorry you feel like you don't deserve to be a part of that dynamic because you're not a good counter to that specific mage. Not every build is going to be successful against every other build.
In answer to your post, we were discussing Warriors vs Mages AC. I was merely stating the flaws a warrior has when facing a mage, I wasnt calling for a nerf, just stating it was very powerful. Your answer is to try and belittle me. You do realise we can discuss this without you constantly taking small jabs at me every time you post? Just makes you look bad mate and you really need to stop doing that to people, its not nice.
You stated something false. You are corrected. You boohoo about how it's not your fault, it's overpowered feats. If you're going to get upset about being corrected, make sure you're right before you post.

Misinformation is so rampant here, no one should take any advice from the forums.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Apothys » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:59 pm

Hey Ork, Im not boohooing about anything, I just ask that you dont talk to me like trash, as i dont talk to you that way. Im not sure what ive done to offend you other than have my own opinion of something, im happy to be corrected but we obviously see things in a different light. Just lets be a little more civil to one another okay?
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:27 pm
Ork wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:21 pm
IE on a caster? That's not a factor or shouldn't be a factor. IE automatically drops on casting, and retriggering the combat stance is cumbersome at best. If there is a caster with IE, you just have to wait for them to cast for them to lose their AC.
If the IE is deterring you from attacking then it is actually a factor. As is throwing summons and then turtling in IE if someone tries to go for you. It is also extremely useful when caught out of position as well as for PvE.

Reactivating it is definitely cumbersome, you actually need to move before you can IE after casting a spell. But it saved my character's live more times than I can count.
Aye mate i agree, as a mage its a must if your going for tactical fighting, for a warrior even more so in pvp. knowing when to drop or raise your expertise is fundamental to survival in some fight.
Nevrus wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:47 pm
There actually is a melee counter to unhittable AC and it's MORE ATTACKS

This is a niche that monks, dual wielders, and thundering rage barbarians fit nicely in. Some of them may have less overall AB than a comparable character built specifically for AB, and other weaknesses, but when it's quantity over quality, that's the solution to the problem.

A lot of high-end PVP between warriors already devolves to both fishing for 20s with IE on when everyone has maxed out buffs and builds.

Of course, I am a bad source in information on this... FOR NOW
No mate your spot on, alot of those pvp fights are about those natural 20s, one cant be chugging true strike potions every other round. In game it just doesnt work as you open yourself up when you do. Your spot on with which classes are good at this i didnt think about that.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Miaou » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:35 pm

This is a reminder to be nice with your fellow Arelithians. There's no need for antagonisms between players. Discussion can happen without the need to be aggressive about your opinions or what you feel is best mechanically. I suggest to drop the aggression on all accounts and return to the topic at hand.

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Re: About AC.

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:29 am

To be honest, EMA isn't as powerful as it may seem. The bonuses are +5 for all AC types (armor, deflection, dodge, natural). A good portion of these bonuses are already going to exist on a mage in some shape or form, most of which don't stack (+5 natural AC off shadow shield, +4 deflection off shield, etc). The final change in AC after using Epic mage armor vs a fully buffed mage isn't a massive difference. The only stackable form of AC is dodge, which can be stripped via flatfooted/suprise attacks, or attacking the mage when they screw up running away from you.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Flat-foot

It is possible to turtle up with Improved expertise and sit there with a summon, but this is a pretty rare occurance from what i've seen.

That said, trying to just run at a fully buffed mage and hit it with a weapon is hard; its also probably the most disadvantageous situation for a melee character to be in. I personally would avoid doing this at all costs.

On the flip side, the introduction of +4 and +5 weapons (or +15 in some rare cases) means you can slice right through DR wards without any real problem.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Arienette » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:48 am

I am in the “Nothing wrong with EMA” camp.

It all goes back to the idea that all builds should be equal in 1v1 PvP duels which isn’t the case.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:31 am

Just for comparison, a cleric can +5 their armor, shield, and deflection. They can use a wand of barkskin to get +4 natural ac (so one less total, unless they have plant domain and can cast it themselves, in which case they can get it up to +5). They can do this for the cost of a wand charge, two level 3 spell slots, and a level 1 spell slot. If they want to go nuts on ac they can get another +9/10 dodge ac from divine shield for a few pre epic feats. EMA is a epic feat, and one that most mages don't even take because things like epic spell focus and auto quicken are way better for most builds of the class.

Bards have bard song to boost their ac, monks have the wisdom addition, fighters get bonuses that stack with gear for going heavy into the class, paladins can get +10 dodge ac from divine shield (and be virtually immune to spells), ect ect ect. I think rogues and barbarians are the only ones who can't get super high ac without specific multiclassing (but they can get passible levels!), but they both can produce insane damage and barbarians even have good ab. High level rogues also have some pretty neat toys that can really wreak havoc on some of the classes.

I think the point that Ork was trying to make is, this isn't new. Its been part of the game since hordes of the underdark came out, and EMA in particular has never been an issue. If you are having trouble defeating high ac (or can't figure out how to boost your own ac) I suggest asking someone on the discord or in the builds and mechanics section here on the forums.

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Re: About AC.

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:27 am

Yeah man pure fighters only get like 30 AB.

Can we get a nerf on EMA already? :mrgreen:

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Re: About AC.

Post by Might-N-Magic » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:57 pm

The cure to Potions of true strike is... Take approximately 3 steps back.

Any n00b who spends about 2 hours on a pvp servers learns anytime you see a sword swinger swig a pot, you just run around or stutter step for a few seconds and whoop, the potion's duration is over. :lol:

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Re: About AC.

Post by Flower Power » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:36 pm

I agree with everything Ork has said thus far.
what would fred rogers do?

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Re: About AC.

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:19 am

Jencent wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:47 pm
Arelith is low-magic area, that's mean we can finde 5+ armour, bracer and more interesting stuff. Also we have 30lvl as highest level. In the case of balance Arelith's DMs deleted feat "Devastating Critical", but what about other feats which can broke the balance? At this thread i wanna talk about Epic Mage Armour, whic is equal +5 gear. Some of REALLY OP builds have EMA as a main (Lol, you are a pure Fighter with 45~AB? Then try to roll d20 to hit me, because i have 70+ AC).

This "problem" solves by self on highest levels, where fighters classes recive strong gear, but... Arelith is low-magic server.

I'm very disapoint, when my fighters with really good AB can't do anythik to a mage, when he can melt me in one second.

Only me found this position a bit not fair?

To be clear: This thread is not about builds, this thread about EMA as epic feat.
There are builds that obtain +5 weapons. Just giving said weapons removed said niche and also defeats the reason arelith made GMW/keen/flameweapon not all stack.

Part of why the community was in huge flames over the umd/lore update was the that in pvp mundane characters highly rely on scrolls to counter mages. Now there are ways to get lore high enough ans i dont feel like reopening that can of worms, but the go to strategy of fighting a mage is to get him before he buffs or to strip him of said buffs.

Scrolls can also make short work of summons if they are trying to IE turtle you. A good arcane archer build also laughs at most acs if we want to get multiple classes into the discussion.

And to be honest, i dont actaully consider arelith to be low magic anymore.

So many plus 4 keen weapons with other stuff on there. With shield scroll or potion you can get your plus 4 deflection ac (vs your non existinf plus 5 helm is only 1 short) barkskin wands can bring your natural armor up to higher tier, dont get me started how people are plus 1 on multiple stats on multiple items and or plus 1 on all saves on said items. Like mundane characters getting enough saves to resist most dcs? Plus skills on items too?

Halfling cookie cutter rogue can have like a plus 6 short sword (+ a bunch of other stuff)

Brycer build dwarves can have plus 5 + other stuff weapons.

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