Feedback on suggestion - Fighter

[CptJonas]

We have classes like wizzard...which is interesting in itself...and they have like xy different paths....

And then we have class as figher...Which is "base" as basicly definition of that word....
They are just used for Full AB..as dip for feats and weapon spec....And at itself (thx to changes) they get some boring (even tho good) pasiv bonuses at high levels....

But is that class interesting at all? No...not at all...if anyone played more classes...and then fighter....dont you think its least interesting and enjoable class to level and play?

In comparison...lets take a look at Knigh class....Thats basicly fighter class....but with actualy interesting cool features, and what more activ abilities, that scales with levels and which are aquried at low levels....

Is posible to edit fighter to add some stuff in? some abilities, bonuses, at low levels? Something unique and actualy funn? Make it probably like rogue...form level 10 - 30 and scaling? So we dont get utlra number of dips...

Maybe make as path....Maybe reduce what base fighter have....so we dont replace old fighter....Make bonus feats every 3 or even 5 levels? And give us so new cool stuff...

Posible options:

Armor weight reduction per level (one learns, is trained in wearing armor, to fit it in best way so it more easily carried)

New stances (like expertise) - posibilities - 1) one that reduces or AC and adds you AB, one that gives you APR but you lose damage(maybe bonus from STR), one that gives you bonus for saves and big bonus to discipline but you are slowed?

Scaling bonuses to skills - Maybe per level bonus, or bigger bonus for every 5 levels? To skills which makes sense...Like discipline (that base skill for every good trained soldier) and possibly to Craft skills (soldiers are trained to maintain their equipment)

Some activ skills - For example "perfect/precise strike" activ ability that gives you bonus to AB and damage for next strike (like smite) or for next round (like truestrike), that bonus could scale with level (3/6/9/12/16 etc) or make it with close to same progresion as have barbarians on rage damage

Some cool activ/pasives - like "Last stand" once your HP drops to like 30% you gain big bonus AC, saves, damage reduction? Or even imunities to crits and sneaks? For like 1 round on big CD.....Or maybe even make it as "Respite" or "godsave" as once you are about to die you cant drop down from 1 hp and you are immune to CCs for 1 round, and maybe add even some AB/damage bonus....
You can make it scale...or with second option have it as ability on level 21? 28?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Fighter's early level strength is its number of fests. Giving other stuff would require possibly removing some of what it has already for balance purposes which would lead to the questiom: "why not just design a new class with said cool abilities instead of modifying fighter?"

[Exordius]

Fighters are useless by high level... every other class can do more then they can and some like cleric can do a fighters job even better then a fighter and still be able to do more then they can in other ways. If you like a really hard challenge then i could see taking it but aside from that there is no logical reason to take it whatsoever.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Fighters are useless by high level... every other class can do more then they can and some like cleric can do a fighters job even better then a fighter and still be able to do more then they can in other ways. If you like a really hard challenge then i could see taking it but aside from that there is no logical reason to take it whatsoever.

Fighters are one of the few classes that gets used in builds with low medium and high amounts of levels.

Brycer build has 23 fighter levels
Cookie cutter weaponmaster has 20 fighter levels
Cookie cutter rogue has 6 fighter levels
The non knight summon based blackgaurd has 11 fighter levels.


These are also viable/powerful builds.

[CptJonas]

Fighter's early level strength is its number of fests. Giving other stuff would require possibly removing some of what it has already for balance purposes which would lead to the questiom: "why not just design a new class with said cool abilities instead of modifying fighter?"

About this....
Yeah...feats are cool..but there are some problems...
If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)..How many of those feats you actualy want? like 6? If I count corectly? Maybe 9 if you are dualwielding? And you got how many? like 11 from 1-20 lvl....and you get another 7 base feats....What actualy are you using these for? You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats and you still end up with some what you dont want....

Fighters are useless by high level... every other class can do more then they can and some like cleric can do a fighters job even better then a fighter and still be able to do more then they can in other ways. If you like a really hard challenge then i could see taking it but aside from that there is no logical reason to take it whatsoever.

Fighters are one of the few classes that gets used in builds with low medium and high amounts of levels.

Brycer build has 23 fighter levels
Cookie cutter weaponmaster has 20 fighter levels
Cookie cutter rogue has 6 fighter levels
The non knight summon based blackgaurd has 11 fighter levels.


These are also viable/powerful builds.

1) we are talking about fighter..not their dip potential....
2) Weaponmaster takes it just bcs he needs big number of feats and its nice to have those WM levels early
3) BG takes it for full BAB and feats...again...not core fighter...just stone floor on which you build actual class
4) builds with more then 20 takes that just to get +4/+5 weapon

And to finish it...sum it....we are talking about near pure, or pure fighter...and not about viability...Class could be usable like hell...but it doesnt mean its funn by itself, or iteresting....we are talking about funn factor...

[Ork]

Fighters core is feats. That's how it works in 3.5. They get a lot of feats. Now the only thing I could see in improving fighters as interesting would be to add feats.

[the grim yeeter]

About this....
Yeah...feats are cool..but there are some problems...
If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)..How many of those feats you actualy want? like 6? If I count corectly? Maybe 9 if you are dualwielding? And you got how many? like 11 from 1-20 lvl....and you get another 7 base feats....What actualy are you using these for? You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats and you still end up with some what you dont want....

Code: Select all

non-human
                general feat    bonus feat
fighter 1	strong soul	expertise
fighter 2		        wf
fighter 3	dodge	
fighter 4		        mobility
fighter 5		
fighter 6	spring attack	whirlwind attack
wm 1		                woc
wm 2		
wm 3	        imp critical	
wm 4		
wm 5		
wm 6       	imp expertise	
wm 7		
fighter 7		
fighter 8	iron will	blind fight
fighter 9		
fighter 10                      weapon spec
fighter 11	lightning reflexes	
fighter 12	                knockdown
fighter 13		
fighter 14	epic will	epic wf
fighter 15		
fighter 16		        epic ws
fighter 17	epic reflexes	
fighter 18		        armor skin
fighter 19		
rogue 1   	esf: disc	
rogue 2		
rogue 3		
fighter 20	imp knockdown	epic prowess

This is a shining example of optimal use of heavy fighter and their bonus feats. And it's not the only example out there. Literally none of these feats are useless. In fact, this is, and has been for a long time, a very powerful build. These times, one would most likely decide to omit the knockdown feats, and consider things like replacing improved knockdown with esf: lore.

Fighter is already a good enough class, the way it works on Arelith. That is, compared to other mundane classes on Arelith. Because, especially after that last, extremely poorly thought-out joke of an update, anything that is not a sorcerer/wizard, (healer) cleric, warlock or divine build (I might be missing one or two) is very suboptimal.

[CptJonas]

About this....
Yeah...feats are cool..but there are some problems...
If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)..How many of those feats you actualy want? like 6? If I count corectly? Maybe 9 if you are dualwielding? And you got how many? like 11 from 1-20 lvl....and you get another 7 base feats....What actualy are you using these for? You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats and you still end up with some what you dont want....

Code: Select all

                general feat    bonus feat
fighter 1	strong soul	expertise
fighter 2		        wf
fighter 3	dodge	
fighter 4		        mobility
fighter 5		
fighter 6	spring attack	whirlwind attack
wm 1		                woc
wm 2		
wm 3	        imp critical	
wm 4		
wm 5		
wm 6       	imp expertise	
wm 7		
fighter 7		
fighter 8	iron will	blind fight
fighter 9		
fighter 10                      weapon spec
fighter 11	lightning reflexes	
fighter 12	                knockdown
fighter 13		
fighter 14	epic will	epic wf
fighter 15		
fighter 16		        epic ws
fighter 17	epic reflexes	
fighter 18		        armor skin
fighter 19		
rogue 1   	esf: disc	
rogue 2		
rogue 3		
fighter 20	imp knockdown	epic prowess

This is a shining example of optimal use of heavy fighter and their bonus feats. And it's not the only example out there. Literally none of these feats are useless. In fact, this is, and has been for a long time, a very powerful build.

Fighter is already a good enough class, the way it works on Arelith. That is, compared to other mundane classes on Arelith. Especially after that last, extremely poorly thought-out joke of an update, anything that is not a sorcerer/wizard, (healer) cleric, warlock or divine build (I might be missing one or two), is very suboptimal.

Do you read people? You literaly quoted something....and act like you didnt read it
"If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)" and "You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats"
This isnt about WM build And its not about powerlevel....its about funn and actual interesting stuff in pure or near pure fighter

[the grim yeeter]

About this....
Yeah...feats are cool..but there are some problems...
If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)..How many of those feats you actualy want? like 6? If I count corectly? Maybe 9 if you are dualwielding? And you got how many? like 11 from 1-20 lvl....and you get another 7 base feats....What actualy are you using these for? You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats and you still end up with some what you dont want....

Code: Select all

                general feat    bonus feat
fighter 1	strong soul	expertise
fighter 2		        wf
fighter 3	dodge	
fighter 4		        mobility
fighter 5		
fighter 6	spring attack	whirlwind attack
wm 1		                woc
wm 2		
wm 3	        imp critical	
wm 4		
wm 5		
wm 6       	imp expertise	
wm 7		
fighter 7		
fighter 8	iron will	blind fight
fighter 9		
fighter 10                      weapon spec
fighter 11	lightning reflexes	
fighter 12	                knockdown
fighter 13		
fighter 14	epic will	epic wf
fighter 15		
fighter 16		        epic ws
fighter 17	epic reflexes	
fighter 18		        armor skin
fighter 19		
rogue 1   	esf: disc	
rogue 2		
rogue 3		
fighter 20	imp knockdown	epic prowess

This is a shining example of optimal use of heavy fighter and their bonus feats. And it's not the only example out there. Literally none of these feats are useless. In fact, this is, and has been for a long time, a very powerful build.

Fighter is already a good enough class, the way it works on Arelith. That is, compared to other mundane classes on Arelith. Especially after that last, extremely poorly thought-out joke of an update, anything that is not a sorcerer/wizard, (healer) cleric, warlock or divine build (I might be missing one or two), is very suboptimal.

Do you read people? You literaly quoted something....and act like you didnt read it
"If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)" and "You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats"
This isnt about WM build And its not about powerlevel....its about funn and actual interesting stuff in pure or near pure fighter

Mechanical balance should not be based on "fun" and "actual interesting stuff" (whatever that means). That is not what balance is for. Balance should be solely based on the most optimal variants of builds/class combinations, their numbers and their ultimate performance in player versus player battle, for it to be deservedly called "balance".

Why do you think going pure fighter, or "near" pure fighter is more fun than, say, a brycer, 20/7/3, or any other non-"pure" build with (considerable amount of) fighter levels in it?

[CptJonas]

Code: Select all

                general feat    bonus feat
fighter 1	strong soul	expertise
fighter 2		        wf
fighter 3	dodge	
fighter 4		        mobility
fighter 5		
fighter 6	spring attack	whirlwind attack
wm 1		                woc
wm 2		
wm 3	        imp critical	
wm 4		
wm 5		
wm 6       	imp expertise	
wm 7		
fighter 7		
fighter 8	iron will	blind fight
fighter 9		
fighter 10                      weapon spec
fighter 11	lightning reflexes	
fighter 12	                knockdown
fighter 13		
fighter 14	epic will	epic wf
fighter 15		
fighter 16		        epic ws
fighter 17	epic reflexes	
fighter 18		        armor skin
fighter 19		
rogue 1   	esf: disc	
rogue 2		
rogue 3		
fighter 20	imp knockdown	epic prowess

This is a shining example of optimal use of heavy fighter and their bonus feats. And it's not the only example out there. Literally none of these feats are useless. In fact, this is, and has been for a long time, a very powerful build.

Fighter is already a good enough class, the way it works on Arelith. That is, compared to other mundane classes on Arelith. Especially after that last, extremely poorly thought-out joke of an update, anything that is not a sorcerer/wizard, (healer) cleric, warlock or divine build (I might be missing one or two), is very suboptimal.

Do you read people? You literaly quoted something....and act like you didnt read it
"If we are talking about pure fighter (not WM)" and "You either take feats what you dont need or want...or take save feats"
This isnt about WM build And its not about powerlevel....its about funn and actual interesting stuff in pure or near pure fighter

Mechanical balance should not be based on "fun" and "actual interesting stuff" (whatever that means). That is not what balance is for. Balance should be solely based on the most optimal variants of builds/class combinations, their numbers and their ultimate performance in player versus player battle, for it to be deservedly called "balance".

Why do you think going pure fighter, or "near" pure fighter is more fun than, say, a brycer, 20/7/3, or any other non-"pure" build with (considerable amount of) fighter levels in it?

I can say much about it...but I will answer with this...
This isnts some arena fighting game...nor Full scale PVP MMORPG ...This is Arelith...RP serven where big % of people play under or aroud 20 level...

This whole sugestion isnt about giving someone power...Its about funn...its about how to give something interesting to that class...without breaking that "balance" what you love so much...

Not everyone is PVP powergamer

[Ork]

Yeah, that's a no for me dawg. You want to improve fighters, I'd love to see it. But don't equate caring about mechanics to powergaming. It's a straight up strawman.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Pure fighter on arelith at one point to have too many cookies and mades two handing twice as absolete as it may be now to a scimi and shield build.

As is a pure fighter with current more meta isnt actaully super bad.

Keened masterly damask Scimitar and shield pure fighter is looking at a 13- 20 crit range with a plus 5 weapon with plus 3 added to their shield helm and armor (9 more ac) and only 3 lost on tumble crossclass and free plus 10 discipline so no need for epic skill focus discipline and all the epic feats.

[Nevrus]

I like game design and challenges so I'm going to ignore the limits of resources and try my hand at this.

New Fighter Path: Battlemaster
True disciples of war, battlemasters must live a life focused exclusively in martial prowess honed to the extreme to learn and maintain techniques beyond the reach of any that do not study their art.

Special: Battlemaster must be selected at character creation or before level 3. Those who choose to become Battlemasters forsake all other classes to focus on martial perfection. They cannot multiclass.

Effect: Every 6 levels of Fighter (6, 12, 18, 24, and 30), Battlemasters do not gain a bonus feat. Instead, they can learn a technique by speaking to an NPC in either the Cordor or Andunor arenas and winning a level-tailored fight.

These techniques have three tiers: Novice (Level 6 and 12), Veteran (Level 18 and 24), and Master (Level 30). Once a technique is learned it cannot be changed.

Novice Techniques: Build Defining Bread and Butter

Surestrike Technique: A combat stance exclusive with Power Attack, Expertise, and Parry. -5 AC for +5 AB. At level 21, also grants Truestrike Technique, a stance which trade -10 AC for +10 AB.

Immovable Stance: A combat stance designed for valiant defense. While active, the character cannot move and sacrifices their highest attack per round as though slowed, but gains +5 AC. Also allows the activation of Expertise and Improved Expertise, but not Power Attack or Parry.

Battle Senses: While in Detect Mode, the character gains +10 Spot and +10 Listen. At level 21, the Spot bonus is doubled for the purpose of seeing through Disguises.

Charge: Once per turn, the character can gain +50% movement speed for two rounds or until they attack an enemy. Their first attack while active gets a +5 bonus.

Veteran Techniques: Special attacks on a cooldown.

Opening Gambit: The Battlemaster makes a single attack in a round. If successful, the target's AC is reduced by 5 for 5 rounds, stacking with Taunt. If unsuccessful, the Battlemaster's AC is reduced by 5 for 3 rounds. Two turn cooldown.

Perfect Deflection: The Battlemaster gains +10 Parry for two rounds. One turn cooldown.

Vengeance: The Battlemaster gains 20% of their maximum health as temporary hitpoints and gains a damage shield that deals 10 points of damage of the same type as their equipped weapon each time they're struck for three rounds. Five turn cooldown.

Headtaker Blow: The Battlemaster makes a single attack that adds both their Strength and Dexterity to the attack and damage. Three turn cooldown.

Master Techniques: Fight Enders, once per rest.

Reap: The Battlemaster attempts to slay the target outright. They make a single attack that is a guaranteed critical hit if successful. If the target is left at less than 20% health, they must make a Fortitude save of 20 + the Battlemaster's strength or dexterity (whichever is higher) or die instantly.

Hurricane: The Battlemaster unleashes a furious series of cleaves. A perfect Whirlwind Attack, they attack each target in range four times each.

Avalanche: The Battlemaster attempts to overwhelm their opponent with many blows. Their strength bonus to damage becomes 0, but they make eight attacks against the target- two at each tier of attack bonus.


What I have written here is unwieldly to implement, rocket-tag overpowered, and breaks a lot of core assumptions that balance is built around, but at least it's interesting. Don't make this. Do make fun of this. I did this for me. I made you all read this for me.

[Tarkus the dog]

How about fighter is fine as it is and some people enjoy playing it?

Why force tits on a chicken?

[the grim yeeter]

How about fighter is fine as it is and some people enjoy playing it?

Why force tits on a chicken?

This. Nothing needs to be changed about fighter.

And I think that the following needs to be said once more: to all boomers insisting on playing 'pure' builds and 'hating dips', ask yourself: Why exactly do I prefer 'pure' builds? And why do I think they are somehow 'better', 'more fun/interesting' or more 'justified RP-wise' than a mechanically optimized build?

Because to me, that does not make sense at all. Combining classes is a thing, and has been a thing since the beginning of time in PnP. And I don't see any arguments for it being better to avoid doing things such as min/maxing attributes, dipping or saving up skill points, and so on. People are going to want to be the best, and to get there, mechanical optimization is one of the things that helps tremendously. Don't want to be the best? Do you think roleplay is somehow negatively affected by refined, optimal builds (spoiler: it isn't)? That's fine, but in that case, you might want to consider not engaging in any discussion regarding balance.

[CptJonas]

How about fighter is fine as it is and some people enjoy playing it?

Why force tits on a chicken?

This. Nothing needs to be changed about fighter.

And I think that the following needs to be said once more: to all boomers insisting on playing 'pure' builds and 'hating dips', ask yourself: Why exactly do I prefer 'pure' builds? And why do I think they are somehow 'better', 'more fun/interesting' or more 'justified RP-wise' than a mechanically optimized build?

Because to me, that does not make sense at all. Combining classes is a thing, and has been a thing since the beginning of time in PnP. And I don't see any arguments for it being better to avoid doing things such as min/maxing attributes, dipping or saving up skill points, and so on. People are going to want to be the best, and to get there, mechanical optimization is one of the things that helps tremendously. Don't want to be the best? Do you think roleplay is somehow negatively affected by refined, optimal builds (spoiler: it isn't)? That's fine, but in that case, you might want to consider not engaging in any discussion regarding balance.

Calm down cowboy...
We are not targeting multiclassing and dips...
We just want more options, with funn gameplay...

You just literaly told us to "shut the Snuggle a Bugbear up" in nice way...


I never thought that I would call for it...
But please lock this...

(kinda starting to get idea why Spyre left Hard to work with people )

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

If everyone is the best, no one is the best. That actually hurts roleplay in a way that I don't have the energy to get into, since people who see it differently will take it as an attack on their perspective. Just wanted to toss that in there as something to think about.

[Dr. B]

There already have been changes implemented to fighter. They're explained here:

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Fighter

I should also add that the "feedback" subforum is for providing feedback on the server, and not a place to repost your own suggestions. So for quite different reasons, I agree with you that this thread should be locked.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

There already have been changes implemented to fighter. They're explained here:

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Fighter

I should also add that the "feedback" subforum is for providing feedback on the server, and not a place to repost your own suggestions. So for quite different reasons, I agree with you that this thread should be locked.

I thought Irongron established back in the summer that discussing suggestions in feedback is a thing.

[Dr. B]

Oh? Then if so, this should be deleted:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22721

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Oh? Then if so, this should be deleted:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22721

Doesnt say anything about not discussing with community your idea that you may or may not have suggested. Just reminding people that feedback is not a suggestion box and therefore may likely get ignored unless its specific feedback for a dev. We been discussing suggestions in feedback for a few months now and what is likely going to get this thread lock now is how far we are straying off topic and, or how fighters changes need not happen so its a mute discussion anyways.

[CptJonas]

Well...exactly...this isnt sugestion...this is simply discusion about sugestion I posted...I wanted to know your feedback...

This topic should be locked as main reason bcs of how many people started to be Angry and nearly outright hostile...

Thanfully I got what I wanted...if not here, then on discord...