Belt of Andunor

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Apothys
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Belt of Andunor

Post by Apothys » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:42 pm

I dont usually complain much, but getting a belt that is:

+1 Dex,
+1 Disc
Runic

seems a bit rubbish for completing those fights. I know its changed from what it was, but is this correct?
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satan
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by satan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:29 pm

From most powerful to complete trash in one update?

Seems legit...

If we are following the monk template maybe they will make it slightly less useless at some future time.
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:37 pm

Your character is also not deleted if you lose.
You still get 250k gold.

What is the issue here? It is basically 250k free gold for solid melee builds with added chance to get a nice runic, which you can repeat until you win.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Arigard » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:24 pm

My two cents:

For a game that has very little 'loss' except ego when you lose, I always thought it was a nice touch to have an optional thing you could risk your character on that also gave you something prominent for completing it. There was always a real sense of danger when people fought the beast and achievement when it was bested. I also frequently saw some RP nice around the whole thing as people banded together to aid those and cheered them on nervously. I never personally really saw an issue with the fight as it was 100% optional & am not too sure why it was decided to remove it. Nobody was forced to fight the beast, it was a choice you made as a player to try and get something worthwhile that was completely up to you whether you risked it or not & there was at least a perceived risk.

If it was deemed too easy to beat, or that the belt was too available, I don't see why it was not made a bit more difficult, rather than simply just removed entirely. Having items in the world that provide renown and prestige are good for the world, especially if it's won on the back of real balanced risk on your part as a player. Items like those gained by the assassins and the radient heart are simply gifted once you have done a certain amount of tasks that have no real investment except simple grinding time, so I'm not too sure why something that actually did have risk was removed.

The gold is nice and everything, but I just feel like taking something out that was as unique as that fight and then replacing it with a watered down experience just leaves a little to be desired. The fear factor is gone now and with it so is the interesting RP that was generated from both those that saw people with the items that had risked their characters and those that were building up to do so to try and best it.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:42 pm

It could be made more difficult but:

1) it would only take some time until people knew the new stats and which builds could beat it;
2) it would just limit the amount of builds that could still beat it;
3) it could still happen, that you lost your character because your PC, internet, or server decided to lag or crash, which isn't great.

Everyone who fought the Beast knew what they were in for and they knew they were going to win, otherwise they would not be there.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:48 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:37 pm
Your character is also not deleted if you lose.
You still get 250k gold.

What is the issue here? It is basically 250k free gold for solid melee builds with added chance to get a nice runic, which you can repeat until you win.
Make the runic a little nicer? Like start with two stats plus runic instead of just 1 stat? 1 stat ribic is completely unusable.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Griefmaker » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:48 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:42 pm
It could be made more difficult but:

1) it would only take some time until people knew the new stats and which builds could beat it;
2) it would just limit the amount of builds that could still beat it;
3) it could still happen, that you lost your character because your PC, internet, or server decided to lag or crash, which isn't great.

Everyone who fought the Beast knew what they were in for and they knew they were going to win, otherwise they would not be there.
I always thought the idea behind the fight was cool with the chance to lose everything for fame, glory, power, prestige. But as mentioned, everyone knew what you needed to beat the Beast.

So I thought that it would be better to have a small group of champions, each which had different strengths and weaknesses, with the champion being fought chosen at random and the characters (and players) never knew exactly what they were getting into. It could be something that one build would have a chance at, whilst others would be utterly destroyed.

And of course, the reward would be very well worth the effort, if one succeeded.

That would make it far more interesting and exciting and prestigious to win. And if a character had a full set of brass Pufferfish to do that knowing the odds were likely not in their favor to survive, they deserved something pretty dang special as a reward.

Now to add a little intrigue...

Leaders of the districts could have a chance to "nudge" the selection of the champion slightly. That way they could try to alter a bit which champion it would be, either in order to help an ally or to remove a rival. Or if they are just assholes and want to kill anyone who is powerful enough that they could be a potential threat.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Might-N-Magic » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:00 pm

Do you still get the feats?
I'm kind of annoyed by that... My character never did those fights because of his RP.
Then I find out afterward that damned thing hands out two free feats that would both be great for him?
So ridiculous if I missed out on that for RP....

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Jagel » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:27 pm

No more feats

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Wrips » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:40 pm

There was nothing wrong with the old belt. Very, very few builds made full use of it's statblock. The only thing that should've been removed were the feats.

Also, RNG items for unique accomplishments is a questionable approach.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Diegovog » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:54 pm

Instead of giving such a horrible belt, just remove it altogether... It's worse than the Lt. enemies' drop. And people who defeated the Beast obviously don't need it.
Also RNG on an unique reward is bad and will make people salty.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Nevrus » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:16 am

Please bring back the old belt. Drop the feats, reduce the gold. That belt is a worthwhile thing to chase for some builds and has a lot of prestige. It didn't throw balance out of whack. The character sheet announcement was nice too.

And let everyone who beat the beast between now and the old belt's return get the better belt as a replacement.

It really did add a lot of flavor to the server and acted as a goal to work towards as a character in its own right. I don't think anyone is particularly thrilled at its removal.
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:14 am

I'm glad it was removed. Beating the beast was a non-issue to all of the cookie cutter melee builds unless you had a crash or something, and that belt was just a big ol' statstick for any bad guy (and some good guys who really tried to pretend getting it wasn't a bad thing because it's just that good to get for most melee's).

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Scylon » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:39 am

I don't mind thing's getting phased out, but I take issue with the stat crunch that seems to be happening. Loot like the belt is exciting, and sort after. Players like having goals to go for out side of the politics that dominates a lot of RP. I myself have very limited time to play, so most my play revolves around adventuring with people.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:00 pm
Do you still get the feats?
I'm kind of annoyed by that... My character never did those fights because of his RP.
Then I find out afterward that damned thing hands out two free feats that would both be great for him?
So ridiculous if I missed out on that for RP....
For comments like this....

Yeah... I'm VERY happy it was removed.
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Wrips » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:20 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm
Might-N-Magic wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:00 pm
Do you still get the feats?
I'm kind of annoyed by that... My character never did those fights because of his RP.
Then I find out afterward that damned thing hands out two free feats that would both be great for him?
So ridiculous if I missed out on that for RP....
For comments like this....

Yeah... I'm VERY happy it was removed.
I mean, why not report abuses instead of nuking the system, like you suggested in the lycantrophy thread? :roll:

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:22 am

Wrips wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:20 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm
Might-N-Magic wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:00 pm
Do you still get the feats?
I'm kind of annoyed by that... My character never did those fights because of his RP.
Then I find out afterward that damned thing hands out two free feats that would both be great for him?
So ridiculous if I missed out on that for RP....
For comments like this....

Yeah... I'm VERY happy it was removed.
I mean, why not report abuses instead of nuking the system, like you suggested in the lycantrophy thread? :roll:
Not going to argue with people nit picking on my words because of disagreements in other threads on different threads. I dont see anything in common between this situation and the one in the other thread. I've highlighted that comment as an evidence that the belt was strong enough for people to go against their character's RP, because it was too strong not to have. That's a call for a change.
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Wrips » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:51 am

The belt, by itself, is objectively inferior to the Radiant Heart ring and now the Assassin's belt, too. The only features that made it overpowered were the feats, Luck of Heroes and Epic Reputation, that characters would receive upon beating the Beast.

I've also seen instances of lycantrophy being used for questionable (aka mechanical) purposes.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:22 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:22 am
Wrips wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:20 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm

For comments like this....

Yeah... I'm VERY happy it was removed.
I mean, why not report abuses instead of nuking the system, like you suggested in the lycantrophy thread? :roll:
Not going to argue with people nit picking on my words because of disagreements in other threads on different threads. I dont see anything in common between this situation and the one in the other thread. I've highlighted that comment as an evidence that the belt was strong enough for people to go against their character's RP, because it was too strong not to have. That's a call for a change.
Your reply is odd since I don't give a dang about the belt. I'm just annoyed I didn't know about the two free feats (which I'd rather have had for my character... more useful). Now apparently I can't get them, yet the people who already did it get to keep them?

Really? Ridiculous.

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:18 am

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:22 am
Your reply is odd since I don't give a dang about the belt. I'm just annoyed I didn't know about the two free feats (which I'd rather have had for my character... more useful). Now apparently I can't get them, yet the people who already did it get to keep them?

Really? Ridiculous.
You've also said obtaining the belt was against your character's RP so I dont really understand what you are complaining about.
Either way,
I'm sorry you feel that way and I think myself and others have explained already why it's not a big deal for the server. Being jealous at other people's cookies is really pointless since their builds are becoming more and more obsolete with every update. Most of them cant use scrolls by now. It's not even remotely close to how powerful can be a character with 3 stat gifts, 32 sr and god knows what other racial bonuses. These two feats are nothing.
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Apothys » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:00 pm

Really am devastated that the belt was removed when it was, Ive been training and getting gear to fight that thing for so long and like a week or so before im ready *poof*

Well it is what it is. Maybe a feature to fight a beast that could be one of a few builds so you never know what it is your gonna be fighting, then that would really scare people and make the final fight for the old belt something noone could predict 100% of the time.
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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:27 pm

Wrips wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:51 am
The belt, by itself, is objectively inferior to the Radiant Heart ring and now the Assassin's belt, too. The only features that made it overpowered were the feats, Luck of Heroes and Epic Reputation, that characters would receive upon beating the Beast.

I've also seen instances of lycantrophy being used for questionable (aka mechanical) purposes.
Having 9+ at STR at any point in the game without needing to buff up ( +3 from belt +6 from the rest of the items ) is pretty huge, especially if you're doing fighter and can sit at 10 STR. Nowadays where people are cheesecakes that unbuffed high STR helps. As well as the 5 discipline that it gives you ( which is very underestimated nowadays and there is a Jack Oat out there somewhere taking improved knockdown waiting to surprise all the "haha, kd is bad now discipline is not important" geniuses ).

It also gives you saves vs fear which helps tremendously when fighting barbarians, mages and even summons such as the balor and the mummy dust.

As for the change itself? Yeah that's Arelith for you. They'll make the change they fancy and hit you with a "If you don't like it, don't play it".

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Re: Belt of Andunor

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:28 pm

Wrips wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:51 am
The belt, by itself, is objectively inferior to the Radiant Heart ring and now the Assassin's belt, too. The only features that made it overpowered were the feats, Luck of Heroes and Epic Reputation, that characters would receive upon beating the Beast.

I've also seen instances of lycantrophy being used for questionable (aka mechanical) purposes.
90% of melee builds found old built an upgrade, 90 % melee builds round werewolf to be useless. And with monk compatibility remove, werewolf builds are extremely niche things to build and generally not worth it unless you find werewolves cool. The two are not comparable at all

Furthermore, complaints about werewolf was abuse revolving around anonymous next to no roleplay PvP, not power of the thing (grieifing players is something much easier for a DM to punish while we have no real rules against powergaming).

That being said, we do have some practical suggestions for the belt (I did bot see any good ones in the lycan discussion). Like keep the old stats, but have no free feats added.

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