[Teleport] Transmutation?

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White_935
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[Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by White_935 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:51 am

Hey..

Now that we've been able to implement new spells, why not include teleport, and greater teleport (with their chance of failure too) as their proper dnd 3.5 spells (conjuration, 5th wizard/sorc, 5 travel for regular teleport, and greater).

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm

It makes little sense for transmutation to be related to teleportation, instead wouldn't it be better to per say give the golem crafting a overhaul, and allow there to be epical variants that could be crafted?

AstralUniverse
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:28 pm

What happens on failure? And what prevents pretty much all mages and clerics from having access to such a powerful tool with 0 investment (except the investment of Travel domain but what sane cleric doesnt take that anyway)? I dont mind separating Teleport from transmutation. Transmutation is already super useful to everyone even without all sorts epic spell commands. But putting Teleport as a spell means everyone get access to it and there should be some kind of a drawback from it to equalize.

I also see this as the first sentence in your link. "This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible." and I fail to see how that's ever going to work in Arelith.

I hear a lot that golems need an overhaul. I dont know if that's really true but that fact I only see Healer clerics use them in mid lvl (or maybe up to low epics) kinda tells something on it's own.
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Wuthering
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Wuthering » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:51 pm

Portal lenses are as low as 2500 gp so teleport seems like more of a quality of life thing than a huge advantage. If it was a 9th level spell instead I don't think it would be extremely powerful. Maybe chance of error that decreased with focuses and the epic ability was teleport without error or something.

Speaking of chance of error though, being able to send your party to almost anywhere on the server at random might actually be kind of awesome especially for bored epics. Gear up and get ready because you have absolutely no idea where you're going. Maybe as a high-end -fate ability of wild mages...

Golems are definitely lackluster at higher levels. I think currently they're about the strength Summon Creature 7 or 8... Another tier of variants that kept up with epic summons would be welcome IMO. Maybe epic transmuters would get bonuses to their golems like necros and conjurers do their summons at high epics, maybe a pure 30 transmuter could have two golems.. Equally cool would be for epic transmuters to be able to steal golems from other epic transmuters in combat.

Sorry if these sound like suggestions but it's in the spirit of discussion.

White_935
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by White_935 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:29 pm

Wuthering wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:51 pm
Portal lenses are as low as 2500 gp so teleport seems like more of a quality of life thing than a huge advantage. If it was a 9th level spell instead I don't think it would be extremely powerful. Maybe chance of error that decreased with focuses and the epic ability was teleport without error or something.

Speaking of chance of error though, being able to send your party to almost anywhere on the server at random might actually be kind of awesome especially for bored epics. Gear up and get ready because you have absolutely no idea where you're going. Maybe as a high-end -fate ability of wild mages...

Golems are definitely lackluster at higher levels. I think currently they're about the strength Summon Creature 7 or 8... Another tier of variants that kept up with epic summons would be welcome IMO. Maybe epic transmuters would get bonuses to their golems like necros and conjurers do their summons at high epics, maybe a pure 30 transmuter could have two golems.. Equally cool would be for epic transmuters to be able to steal golems from other epic transmuters in combat.

Sorry if these sound like suggestions but it's in the spirit of discussion.
The good part about it being a level 5 spell as pr dnd 3.5 is that it would be possible for non-casters with lore to actually cast/use the scrolls themselves as well.

I would keep it with the lore, where the "greater" teleport has no failure, but could for instance cost extra components, even unique by any chance. While the normal "teleport" has a 5% chance to send you any random area of a premade list (big list) which could be a pretty bad idea in general.

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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by RedGiant » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:25 pm

I think the choices here are practical. Conjuration already allows you higher summons tier, buffs to the things you summon, AND the ability to gate in other PCs.

Buff golems all you want, but please don't monkey with such a central mechanic as this. This is another suggestion that would merit server-wide rebuilds...or...simply hose a lot of people.
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Nitro
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Nitro » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:34 pm

Make teleport a spell as in P&P (Along with greater teleport).
5% chance on regular teleport to hit a random destination on the same server.
No chance of getting the wrong destination with greater teleport.
Remove portal lenses.
Make scribing teleport cost about the same as a portal lens does currently.
Make scribing greater teleport cost more to give a choice between cost and convenience.

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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:25 pm

I think the reason we aren't emulating *all* the 3.5 spells is because it would make high level full-caster classes by far, many times over, superior to all other classes.

Example: Scrying is a 4th level spell

In addition, spell component costs in 3.5 wouldn't work with Arelith's overly inflated economy.


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Hazard
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Hazard » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:05 am

I love this idea for a server, but I just don't see it working on Arelith at all.

Nitro
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:39 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:25 pm
I think the reason we aren't emulating *all* the 3.5 spells is because it would make high level full-caster classes by far, many times over, superior to all other classes.

Example: Scrying is a 4th level spell

In addition, spell component costs in 3.5 wouldn't work with Arelith's overly inflated economy.
Funnily, P&P scrying would be next to useless on Arelith because most decently build characters can make a will save against a 4th level spell without much issue.

malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:39 pm

Honestly, as much as I love staying PnP accurate, I realize it does not always translate well.

For example, give conjurers teleporting, but transmutators will never be able to fly.

Transmutation focuses allow one to transmute via the portal system. You could argue its interacting/changing the environment versus planar travel since they tap into the weylines or something.

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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by NauVaseline » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:09 am

White_935 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:51 am
It makes little sense for transmutation to be related to teleportation, instead wouldn't it be better to per say give the golem crafting a overhaul, and allow there to be epical variants that could be crafted?
This makes sense. Golems are long overdue for an overhaul and teleportation has nothing to do with transmutation

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Hunter548
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:28 am

Teleportation is transmutation in 3.0 (what arelith uses most of the time: see also haste), not conjuration.
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Nitro » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:13 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:28 am
Teleportation is transmutation in 3.0 (what arelith uses most of the time: see also haste), not conjuration.
He's right.
Players Handbook 3.0, Pg. 264
Transmutation (Teleportation)

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Hazard
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Hazard » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:45 am

Nitro wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:13 am
Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:28 am
Teleportation is transmutation in 3.0 (what arelith uses most of the time: see also haste), not conjuration.
He's right.
Players Handbook 3.0, Pg. 264
Transmutation (Teleportation)
In my experience we've used most 3.5 not 3.0, and we advertise as using 3.5 (http://arelith.com/index.php/promote)
Over the many, many years of being here before teleportation was given away to transmutation, it was done through conjuration in DM events. I've opened many portals and summoned people around in plenty of events using ESF conj as the justification. It just doesn't make sense to transmute a location, which is why teleportation was moved to the appropriate school conjuration in 3.5.

Besides, IMO transmutation would still be one of the strongest picks even without portals. I think conjuration, besides yoink, is a pretty crappy school. Elementals aren't like they used to be, they're no threat to players and you can't use them to solo most places worth soloing unless you're willing to slog through at a snail's pace and if you aren't soloing you team-mates usually demand it be unsummoned, meanwhile on my WM I can casually stroll through 10 dungeons before you even get to the boss in yours... That is, hoping no one else comes because they will over-take you with no guarantee of inviting you along.

I think we should just move teleportation over to conjuration, and improve on golems so transmuters aren't just losing without gaining. It never made sense for transmutation to have portals on Arelith, but at the time conjuration was the #1 pick and transmutation was practically useless. Since then trans has gotten invaluable zoo spell buffs among other spells. We can probably afford to do this properly, now.

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Hunter548
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Re: [Teleport] Transmutation?

Post by Hunter548 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:11 am

Hazard wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:45 am
Nitro wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:13 am
Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:28 am
Teleportation is transmutation in 3.0 (what arelith uses most of the time: see also haste), not conjuration.
He's right.
Players Handbook 3.0, Pg. 264
Transmutation (Teleportation)
In my experience we've used most 3.5 not 3.0, and we advertise as using 3.5 (http://arelith.com/index.php/promote)
Over the many, many years of being here before teleportation was given away to transmutation, it was done through conjuration in DM events. I've opened many portals and summoned people around in plenty of events using ESF conj as the justification. It just doesn't make sense to transmute a location, which is why teleportation was moved to the appropriate school conjuration in 3.5.
By and large, 3.0 and 3.5 are identical. The primary areas where they differ are a few classes that aren't selectable on Arelith (Red Wizard PRC gives you DC boosts to your specialist school in 3.0, but CL boosts in 3.5, for example), a few rules that don't exist in NWN regarding actions i na round, and spells. The biggest examples of the latter are the teleport line being transmutation and haste's behavior; in 3.0, haste is a single target spell that boosts your move speed, grants you an extra partial action and gives you +4 ac (Basically how it works in Arelith), with mass haste existing. In 3.5, haste is scaling creatures/level spell that gives you move-speed, an extra attack when you full attack, and 4 ac. Mass haste, meanwhile, doesn't exist because there's no longer a reason for it to exist. Haste in 3.5 also pointedly does not let you cast an extra spell in 3.5 - you have to take quicken spell.

You're right however that there's a lot of 3.5 elements that have been brought into Arelith, especially in the past 3-4 years. Perhaps a better way to have worded it would have been "Teleport was transmutation in 3.0, so it's clearly not unjustifiable for it to be so on Arelith. You can easily explain the lore reasoning for it by looking at spells like Ethereal Jaunt or the like; Transmutation still has "move to X place" spells in 3.5, even with teleportation being conjuration.

Sure teleportation could make sense in conjuration, but it also makes sense in transmutation, and clearly WOTC agreed with that at one point. Failing some balance issue, moving it over to conjuration serves no purpose - and creates the problem of having to relevel everyone who took transmutation because they wanted to teleport - and also the problems of transmutation no longer having a -command, while conjuration becomes the only school with two seperate ones.

Besides, IMO transmutation would still be one of the strongest picks even without portals. I think conjuration, besides yoink, is a pretty crappy school. Elementals aren't like they used to be, they're no threat to players and you can't use them to solo most places worth soloing unless you're willing to slog through at a snail's pace and if you aren't soloing you team-mates usually demand it be unsummoned, meanwhile on my WM I can casually stroll through 10 dungeons before you even get to the boss in yours... That is, hoping no one else comes because they will over-take you with no guarantee of inviting you along.
You're welcome to that opinion, but it's an inaccurate one. Conjuration is still a pretty strong school; at worst, it's #4 of 8 if you put a gun to my head and made me list them out. Transmutation meanwhile is nice for a convenience factor and playing faction support, but isn't all that strong of a choice. I love having transmutation, don't get me wrong - but it's also always the first focus I would drop if I wanted to fit another school (Outside of things like spellswords or divine builds or w/e. Talking "normal" casters, here).

As far as I know elementals haven't changed any time recently. You've never solo'd fast with them (Or any summon line), but if you're actually unable to solo I suspect you're having issues with badly balanced mobs more than anything. I've noticed a few newer areas are pretty badly balanced, so perhaps that's it. Certainly I've solo'd a few wizards in the past 6-8 months to reasonable levels with conjuration. It's still more or less compulsory on every mage if going for pure optimality (Or necromancy, but that's a different kettle of fish and I'd take transmutation over necromancy a lot of the time).


Comparing a WM to wizards in a discussion of spell focus intrabalance seems like a bizarre non-sequitur.
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