Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

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Shrouded Wanderer
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am

NegInfinity wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:10 am
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:47 am
Im confused, So... Could you expand on how it godmods a PC character, and how it ruins any sort of intention of adding additional RP value to default, lets say Hypothetically, zero AB penalty Subdual in order to have PCs RP with each other after a PvP event has occured?
Anyone who wants extra RP can already do that now, -subdual is already available, along with lassos. What I see it as forcing a bias towards good alignment actions as a default.

The likely scenario will be that I'll want anyone that comes at my character to die, with very lethal damage. I'll definitely forget to set this setting at some point then I'll be suddenly presented with situation where the game forced decision onto me, the one I didn't take and wouldn't take.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:47 am
Godmodding doesnt even enter the equation if you are able to enable lethal mode. Godmodding implies you are unable to do anything else except subdual.
Godmoding means a decision is made for me. And not that I can change it.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:47 am
The way I see it, Its not a hand hold, but a tool to allow more RP after a PvP conflict event has happened. Rather than Killing someone, then bashing their corpse.
It is a hand hold, because it forces good aligned action as a default. Right now the other players are treated no differnet from npc opponents, and I think this is quite reasonable. I also do not recall anyone ever requesting non-lethal damage for monsters, for some reason.

What's more, not killing someone should be hard. If you want to save their life or redeem them, or catch them alive and then torture, this absolutely should be more difficult. Removing that difficulty is hand holding and looking for easy ways. At least that's how I see it.


Alright Ill try to go by your arguements one by one, and please let me know if I am misrepresenting it in some way. For now, ill replace Subdual with Defeat as i think this more properly illustrates what many people view a subdual as, non lethal wounding or defeating of an enemy and them lying essentially helpless on the ground.

1. "Anyone who wants extra RP can already do that now, -subdual is already available, along with lassos. What I see it as forcing a bias towards good alignment actions as a default. "

The same exact arguement can be made for the reverse; For example "Anyone who wants to lethally murder someone can do that, -lethal is available as an option, along with making the choice to Coup de Grace after defeating them"

Certainly it is not a Bias toward good alignment actions, but a buffer between defeating an enemy and making the concious choice to end their life, Adding an additional option to the scenario. What I mean by this, is if I am an evil mastermind, perhaps I want to defeat my enemy and then taunt them, or monologue before delivering a final blow, telling them how useless their plan is and how I will rule the world muahahahah.

2. "The likely scenario will be that I'll want anyone that comes at my character to die, with very lethal damage. I'll definitely forget to set this setting at some point then I'll be suddenly presented with situation where the game forced decision onto me, the one I didn't take and wouldn't take."

The current scenario is the game forcing the Fugue on a defeated player, Is their engagement worth less than the victor? Id say both should have equal engagement when it comes to winning and losing, rather than a player being forced away from the aftermath of the battle to sit for three minutes in the fugue with only the ability to send OOC messages Via PM.

3. "Godmoding means a decision is made for me. And not that I can change it."

Infact the decision you make is deepened, not made for you. You only have to complete an additional step. Id argue if it forces anything it then forces a Decision FROM you, not for you. To stand over a defeated enemy to strike the final blow is ultimately a decision you can make, Rather than the current state of everyone automatically dead.

4. "It is a hand hold, because it forces good aligned action as a default. Right now the other players are treated no differnet from npc opponents, and I think this is quite reasonable. I also do not recall anyone ever requesting non-lethal damage for monsters, for some reason. "

I think I have covered that this is not a Good aligned Action by default, However I can expand on this, Historically, Villains are portrayed in media to be narcissistic, vain, and possibly sociopathic, or psychopathic. To term a monologue was used to expand word counts and created a viable trope that is perpetuated to this day.

As for Hand-holding, I do not think it is, I dont agree that it should be considered a hand hold, It does not remove the ability to PvP, it doesnt remove any choice, or decision from either the attacker/victor or the defender/loser. What it does and can do is expand a PCs choices and ability to further a conflict via allowing IC interaction between their enemy after a fight is over.

"I also do not recall anyone ever requesting non-lethal damage for monsters, for some reason."
Im not sure if you mean NPCs here. But as far as NPCs goes, it is a gamified action that forces us to murder scores upon scores of NPCs, and if we were to take the arguement to PnP, I would say in the event of PvP a DM would surely ask at the end of a battle if that player was truely sure they would want to strike their fellow player down permanently (Or to be raised later, etc...)

5. "What's more, not killing someone should be hard. If you want to save their life or redeem them, or catch them alive and then torture, this absolutely should be more difficult. Removing that difficulty is hand holding and looking for easy ways. At least that's how I see it."

Are you under the impression that killing someone is easy? Experience in actual combat says that it is actually not. Wounding is fairly common, wounding to the point that one would certainly die in a few minutes to a few hours is extremely common in certain aspects.

It would seem that the subdual system on your mind implies that a swordsman would clap some one on the back of the head and they would be rendered unconcious as per an action movie. When in reality a system such as this would leave a person in a literal Near-death state, likely bleeding, almost certain to die without medical treatment.

Infact Capturing someone in this state would be about the same difficulty as it would be to stab them one more time for good measure.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:20 am

Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
Certainly it is not a Bias toward good alignment actions, but a buffer between defeating an enemy and making the concious choice to end their life, Adding an additional option to the scenario. What I mean by this, is if I am an evil mastermind, perhaps I want to defeat my enemy and then taunt them, or monologue before delivering a final blow, telling them how useless their plan is and how I will rule the world muahahahah.
And why do you think the choice should be always conscious? If you startle a barbarian with a huge axe and yell "boo", you can get killed. Even if they didn't mean it.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
The current scenario is the game forcing the Fugue on a defeated player, Is their engagement worth less than the victor? Id say both should have equal engagement when it comes to winning and losing, rather than a player being forced away from the aftermath of the battle to sit for three minutes in the fugue with only the ability to send OOC messages Via PM.
If we start comparing engagement levels, then somebody is playing a very different game. It is not quantifable.
There was action, it led to consequences. One side died. The end. Accept consequences and continue further. If we try to ensure that everybody experiences the same amount of fun during pvp aftermatch, that is going to suck big time for everybody involved. There are highs and lows.

My first instance of pvp was a player using a familiar to poop on altar my chracter was playing to. What possible continuation could happen in this case, for example?
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
You only have to complete an additional step.
I don't need to complete that step now and I'm happy with it.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
I think I have covered that this is not a Good aligned Action by default, However I can expand on this,
It is a good aligned action as you strive to preserve life in ALL cases. There are noble demon villains that would do the same, but by default this is heavily leaning towards good and should not be forced onto everybody.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
As for Hand-holding, I do not think it is, I dont agree that it should be considered a hand hold,
Can't see it as anything other than hand-holding. "Let's ensure once again that nobody got accidentally killed".

Just no.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
it is a gamified action that forces us to murder scores upon scores of NPCs, and if we were to take the arguement to PnP, I would say in the event of PvP a DM
The way I see it npcs are equal to players. Each has a name, and while they're trying to murder you, you're making conscious choice to murder each and every one of them. So why people should suddenly become shy when it comes to players is beyond me. The player's job, after all is also to be an npc. To provide the mind for their avatar.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
Are you under the impression that killing someone is easy?
Most combat wounds will end up lethal or permanently crippling. Perhaps not immediately, but lethal.
"Knockout" --> concussion and death to internal brain hemmorage.
"Let's shoot him in the knee" --> Death in 30 secodns due to cut artery.
"How about an arm?" --> another athery.
"Gut wound?" --> bleeding to death in a few hours.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
Experience in actual combat says that it is actually not. Wounding is fairly common, wounding to the point that one would certainly die in a few minutes to a few hours is extremely common in certain aspects.
Modern combat does not use swords. It uses bullets. Which, in lucky circumstances can pass by many organs and make the target survive.
However, try to imagine non-lethal handgrenade.
Or non-lethal 50 cal machinegun. Or a shotgun.
Or a modern non-lethal combat knife.

Some of those weapons can be modified to be "non lethal". But that severely decreases their power. Knife becomes ruber, and shotgun gets different ammo which no longer rips limbs off.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
It would seem that the subdual system on your mind implies that a swordsman would clap some one on the back of the head and they would be rendered unconcious as per an action movie. When in reality a system such as this would leave a person in a literal Near-death state, likely bleeding, almost certain to die without medical treatment.
Yes, it would exactly be like a cartoon slap.
Near death state is already in the game. It is the area with negative hitpoints. YOu can use it.
If you want ability to send people to near death state, then you'd need high wisdom and healer's skill to get a good assessment of their condition. As typical adventurer would be able to slice a horse rider in a half along with the horse.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:30 am
Infact Capturing someone in this state would be about the same difficulty as it would be to stab them one more time for good measure.
Capturing them in this state will be pointless, because they would die in a few minutes after "capture" and would be unable to talk.

------

In all honesty, guys, you shoudl really just grab a reserve weapon like a two-handed mace and use -subdual as it is implemented right now. The system is fairly well done.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Nevrus » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:06 am

My personal opinion is that yes subdual should be easier, but it should be noted that dagger and halberd both offer subdual options. 1h edged is not locked out of the system.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Eters » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm

I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Morgy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:18 pm

Eters wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm
I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.
All of this.

I can’t really see a decent reason not to make subduing easier when it’s perfect for a hellball not to tear apart a PC wearing little more than cloth.

Reducing pvp deaths and increasing RP opportunities can only give more weight to death as said above.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:24 pm

Eters wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm
I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust.
We're in a magical world where getting hit by a literal nuke instantly kills you unless you're insanely, insanely, inhumanely tough to the point where you probably are beyond what any normal mortal is.
We can do an experiment - let's take 50 level 3 characters and throw a mere maximized fireball of them. Then let's see what's left of them.

What you're asking for is ensuring that by default, somebody who is a living walking nuclear weapon is unable to kill an elderly field farmer, because of OOC reasoning. Which negatively affects believability of the world. The whole thing stinks of carebears if anything.

Also, the whole talk about RP after PVP is odd, because ... where exactly are you hanging out if you pvp all the time? What are you even doing? Is there a hidden pvp club on plane of shadow or something? Somehow I seem to be able to play for very long periods of time - months even, without ever seeng anyone pvp anyone else. So balancing the server around something that seems to be a rather uncommon thing happening in a galaxy far far away within a "level 30 only allowed" club idea seems to be odd to me.

That's why I think the system is good as is. Making sure people don't die is hard, hence -4 and special weapon requirements. "People die when killed" means you need to watch those fireballs so you won't be responsible for accidentally murdering others. It is good and it is how it should be.

If anything, it would be a good idea to add extra condition where sending someone to negative amount of their maximum hp would leave no body, because they end up being disintegrated.

I also think that rather than giving meaningful RP, default subdual will cheapen conflict RP and make deaths even less meaningful than there are now. Definitely wouldn't want to see this happen.

On related note, do be aware that right now we have 24 no-contact rule for PVP which must be honored. So by default the other player should not be forced to continue interacting with your character if they don't want to. That's why we have -unrelent option.
DM Qizzia:

"Is it against rules to be raised without prior agreement?
It is not against the rule, if you do not interact in any way with that PC again. You may always say: Yes, but the raise is an interaction in itself, and, yes, in some situations, it can be, in others not. So again: Case to case situation.
If you wish to continue to interact with the killed PC, you must agree on it. If you raise someone, without the other part explicitly agrees to it, it's against the rule. Note the word explicitly. That means, that 'silence means yes', is not valid here.
As PvP almost always get some player upset, it's very important that both parts try to calm down. (Hence the 24 hours). From experience I can tell, that players acting whilst still upset, create loads of screenies and PMs to the DMs.
An advice for you (by all means, nothing you need to follow): If you feel angry, and feel that you are unable to calm down, log off, take a walk, do something else. Don't start sending angry tells to the other player. If you think there was a rule's break, screenie, and contact the DMs. If you feel that you hurt the other player, and believe yourself calm, try to apologize to the other player."
http://wiki.arelith.com/Twenty_four_hours_rule

This is one more reason why death is the default. The other party after pvp is likely to be very angry, ar at the very least it will be a high adrenaline situation. Hence the cooloff.
Last edited by Void on Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Nobs » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:36 pm

Eters wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm
I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.
Would LOVE to see this implimented

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:42 pm

Neg is arguing about level 30s throwing hellballs at level 3s when the average server level is closer to 20.


Youve destroyed you own arguement as to why PCs should be treated different from NPC monsters: they ARE tougher by default. Many even being able to solo kill an ancient red dragon.

They SHOULD be treated differently by default because they ARE different from a baseline commoner.


As well if some one breaks character after being defeated to harass a player then you do what you should always do when that player is Abusive in PMs. Bash them and report them.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:50 pm

Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:42 pm
Neg is arguing about level 30s throwing hellballs at level 3s when the average server level is closer to 20.
I said fireball and not hellball. Do pay attention. Fireball reaches max damage at caster level 10. Maximized fireball is available at caster level 12 or 13.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:42 pm
Youve destroyed you own arguement as to why PCs should be treated different from NPC monsters: they ARE tougher
They are not, though. There are crazy tough creatures all over the map, and even at high level they can give you bad time, depending on what you're playing. Dragonslayer shoudln't be a baseline for comparisons, and red dragon is not the only dragon on the server.
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:42 pm
They SHOULD be treated differently by default because they ARE different from a baseline commoner.
Also would be a good idea to decide whether you're talking about red dragon level of toughness or commoner level of toughness.
-------------
Either way those threads are depressing. Would be nice if feedback was treated the same way as suggestions (no arguments) and if all the active people were instead visible in the game.

Have fun.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:06 pm

Nobs wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:36 pm
Eters wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm
I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.
Would LOVE to see this implimented
+1 Love this idea as well!

Only con would be re-implementing the post-death amnesia. It's so hard/impossible to police and force people to play by. I believe that's the reason they got rid of that rule and made it optional.
Twily wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am
Do you like Arelith existing?
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Dr. B » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:11 pm

I like Eters's idea. My only comments are (1) to replace raise dead scrolls in #5 with healing kits and spells and (2) to script it so the character does not remain in the lying down position during those ten minutes, as that would make for somewhat stilted looking RP. Maybe they could assume a sitting position after 30 seconds or so; (3) amensia should not be required or expected. Enforcing it would be intractable, and forgetting who killed your character stifles possible avenues of future RP.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:43 pm

Eters wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:56 pm
I don't understand the freakout behind this. We are in a magical world where getting hit by a LITERAL NUKE doesn't instantly kill you so hard you are reverted to atomic dust. And watching a spooky centipede wiggle around does. Realism about 'x should be unable to subdue y because his sword has an edge.' is just a silly argument.

What I see here is a tool that can give death a bigger meaning, and make it an active decision we take in conflict rather than the sole outcome.

As it is right now you are punished by the system for trying to RP after hostilities. If they die you need to raise them (after their own consent naturally). Or you need to fight with 4 less AB, or you need to fight with a weapon that is not your character's profeciency on top of the penality or you need to use spells that may not be efficient at all compared to your usual arsenal.

Everyone here says that subdual is "good as it is" and I have yet to see it EVER used in a hostage taking situation. Often everyone is corpsed and the "chosen" ones for hostage are raised, the rest are bashed or left to rot.

Now how to implement this tool into the system ?

1. Dying from anything other than death spells (Implosion, Wail of Banshee, Weird, Phantasmal killer, circle of death, disintegrate, etc...) would make the character reach 0 HP and be incapacitated (as if they were subdued, they will lose all wards in that state and will be impossible to heal/regenerate). They would remain in that state for 10 minutes. They can emote and RP as if they're badly wounded or whatever they want. After 10 minutes they will be able to move once more and stand up with 1 hp.

2. The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent command and go to the fugue.

3. The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more.

4. 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.

5. A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at 1 Hp once more. A character can also use ressurection on a uncapacitated character after 360 seconds of them being down to have them stand up at full HP. (The cooldown of 360 seconds is there to avoid instantly raising uncapacitated players mid PvP).

Perks :

1. Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue. Such allows the winning side's RP from being appreciated by both parties as both get to see what unfolds after the battle.

2. Death becomes a concious decision to make rather than just an outcome from every hostile engagement. The "we can kill and raise them after." situations will be greatly reduced and death in the world may have a little bit more weight.

3. Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue could be reimplented as now it is an active decision to kill another character rather than just being forced to do it.

Cons :

I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this. It is an extra option that is unavailable to us now and can be added to better the narrative. Those who still like to instantly corpse people can still do that (like just 1 additional click) and those that prefer engaging with their victims after the PvP now can also do that without having to belittle death / ruin their bank account / bend their character's RP just to raise a greater evil for the sake of RP.
In details.

> Dying from anything other than death spells
1. No. If attack blows up trees they should die on the spot. A level 1 hit by maximized fireball goes splat and that's what should be happening. A care should be taken to make someone doesn't die. It should not be default, and there should be no plot armor of any kind. "Incap by default" cheapens consequences of using excessive force. You're asking for plot armor. I prefer "actions have consequences. Not all consequences are good".

> The incapacitated player can at any time opt out of the after PvP RP by using the -unrelent
2. Reasonable. Why not add -suicide, though? Although this can rub some people in the wrong way and will be abused to do death teleports.

> The winning player can at anytime send the incapacitated character to the fugue by attacking him once more
3. Reasonable, but it already works this way. If you send someone into "bleeding state", you attack them, they die.

> 24 hours rule for PvP would be applied only after one of the players was sent to the fugue.
4. No, as it allows winner to harass loser by default. If you want everyone to enjoy the outcome, loser having to agree to continue would probably be the best idea.

> A character can use raise dead on a incapacitated character after 360 seconds
5. No, because incapped character isn't dead. Use heal kits.

-------

Perks:
> Losing players can see events unfold even after being felled, rather than just go straight to the fugue.
This resembles spectator mode and smells of huge metagaming posisbilities. Losing players can learn about outcome by talking to other people.

> Death becomes a concious decision
Why should death be a conscious decission, though?
You send a spell in the wrong direction, you kill five people. You're now in trouble. You now have to make amends. That's an RP opportunity. It is good! It is a much better option then them being magically protected from consequences by a plot armor. You're asking for a plot armor and want more control. I think this is not reasonable.

> Forgetfullness and amnesia from being sent to the fugue
Forgetfulness from fugue is not enforced by the rules.
http://wiki.arelith.com/Death
In contrast to previous ruling and DnD lore, a character is free to remember any and all details of their death, and even the events that may occur in the Fugue Plane.

However, playing the post-raise amnesia is perfectly acceptable, and even encouraged.
> I don't know, I don't see what can be bad about this.
It shields player from responsibility for their actions and accidents, encourages pvping, and by default allows winner to harass loser (because 24 hour timeout happens only after death and not after loss in your scenario).

---------

Anyway, see you all guys in the game. Hopefully.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:32 am

My intent in starting this thread was to refine a set of rules we could all agree that would make the approved suggestion of Subdual an effective and interesting narrative tool - to be used alongside with traditional death/sending your enemy to the Fugue Plane.

I have noticed that a lot of players tend to form OOC grudges against characters whom they believe did not perform adequate role-play beforehand, even when server rules regarding roleplay beforehand are extensively followed. Subdual would significantly change the quality of roleplay between those player's characters, and lead to a more satisfactory experience and outcome between the players as well. I imagine it would also even lead to less player to DM reporting, reducing administrative workload as well.

The monologues of evil derring dos? The Self righteous Paladin's speech before finally smiting his nemesis? These are movie and D&D classics! Lastly, players would feel less obligated to win at all costs, with a narrative option available at either end of the road.

With Subdual, those sort of experiences could be suddenly possible in the world we all play.
Last edited by Apokriphos on Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:36 am

Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:32 am
My intent in starting this thread was to refine a set of rules we could all agree that would make Subdual and effective and interesting narrative tool - to be used alongside with traditional death/sending your enemy to the Fugue Plane. I have noticed that a lot of players tend to form OOC grudges against characters whom they believe did not perform adequate role-play beforehand, even when server rules regarding roleplay beforehand are extensively followed.

This change would significantly change the quality of roleplay between those player's characters, and lead to a more satisfactory experience between the players as well.

The monologues of evil derring dos? The Self righteous Paladin's speech before finally smiting his nemesis? With Subdual, those could be suddenly possible in the world we all play.
Something to keep in mind:
* Subdual is already available for those who want to use it.
* Not much can be done about OOC grudges. PVP is high adrenaline situation, so some feathers will be ruffled.
* You can't make somebody participate in narrative if they don't want to. They can simply disconnect.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:43 am

Void wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:36 am
Something to keep in mind:
* Subdual is already available for those who want to use it.
* Not much can be done about OOC grudges. PVP is high adrenaline situation, so some feathers will be ruffled.
* You can't make somebody participate in narrative if they don't want to. They can simply disconnect.
I will address your points in order:

1). Subdual is not available for those who want to use it. Only for those who have blunt weapons, and even then, only if they want to fight at a disadvantage from the start, unless they take a feat to do so. It is not available to bladed users, magic users of all types, in very realistic situations where a character at the epitome of their ability should be able to control their blows/spells to a fine enough degree to enable some conversation at the end.

2). OOC grudges can be addressed by communication. Which is exactly how it is done in the real world, and in this game. Promotion of communication between sides IC is an ideal solution, and is what Subdual would be promoting.

3). As many have said previously (including the approved suggestion which I included linked at the beginning of this thread), any implimentation of Subdual will allow for a -death command to enable the character to not participate if they wish it.

Subdual will greatly improve conflict driven storytelling. That is, I have found, the major driving force for most of the characters in Arelith.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:09 am

Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:43 am
1). Subdual is not available for those who want to use it. Only for those who have blunt weapons, and even then, only if they want to fight at a disadvantage from the start,
The way I see it if you want "not to murder them" this doesn't mean it should be easy, so having a disadvantage compared to full lethality is perfectly reasonable. Because if your character is used to cleaving people in half (sometimes multiple people in one swing) and chopping heads off, doing that in non-lethal way is not going to be possible.

Carry a reserve compatible backup weapon and use it. AB loss is comparable to knockdown anyway.

I could understand complaints if the penalty was -30. But only -4? That's not a big deal if you want to save a life.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:24 am

Being victorious in a fight would have more consequence if both parties still could converse in the end.

As I said previously when the point was brought up, only melee classes with a blunt weapon can effectively use Subdual as it is currently. There are absolutely more classes with the ability to control their attacks then melee characters with a blunt weapon.

The points supporting the expansion of Subdual are numerous, exhaustively addressed in this thread and others, and quite nuanced. From likely reducing DM workload to enabling more IC communication to promoting a better player environment within the server - where players recognize that both their enemies & allies have a good natured player behind their characters screen.

Expanding Subdual would do much to improve the storytelling of the server.

What I would like to hear more of are what could be done to make the system fair and balanced for both sides while becoming a useful feature in Arelith.

Currently the suggested structure is:
A -death command to skip the gloating/monologue. Perhaps a tick to death like a bleed out.
No use of pray/regeneration/or healing while the character is down, until some predetermined period of time afterward.
Last edited by Apokriphos on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:31 am

Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:24 am
Being victorious in a fight would have more consequence if both parties still could converse in the end.
You can converse in the end. However, you have to make a choice and pay the price for it. And that is reasonable.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:24 am
Expanding Subdual would do much to improve the storytelling of the server.
I'm frankly not seeing it. The proposal to simplify the subdual mechanic to me sounds like cheapening the choice of trying to save someone's life when they're actively trying to murder you plus too much handholding.

It can also have a completely opposite effect compared to what you're trying to achieve. Because gloating/preaching post subdual will result in more drama, while after being fugued you can take a break, grab a drink, cool down, while the resurrection timer is ticking. It offers a good pause after the conflict, while in case of subdual, not only your character has been brutally beaten down, they're still part of the conflict as due to them not being dead 24 hour rule does not apply. Right now there's a cost, and that's a good thing.

The thread you linked also had a lot of good arguments against it. For example:
Curve wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:37 pm
My biggest issue with making subdual have no penalties is it becoming the standard for pvp, thus limiting the need to rp out of hostile situations. That and people getting it in their heads that subdual is the standard and if someone does not use it they are "bad rpers" who need to be reported.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:57 pm
Part of the drawback of fighting to not kill someone is that it's harder to do - there are feats you can take in core to lessen/eliminate the penalties, but swinging your awesome +5 sword at someone to knock them out rather than cut them in half is hard and normally accompanied by a significant penalty- because being good is harder than being evil, and fighting to capture someone is harder than fighting to kill someone. That's not just an arbitrary penalty, it makes sense.

There are no magic spells that deal damage in non-lethal form unless it specifies such in the spell text or you take specific metamagic feats to make it happen. As a mage, if I want to subdue someone rather than melt their face off, it should be my job to regulate my damage and stop casting fireball at the target so someone else can subdue them, or my mage needs to learn how to swing a weapon.

I would possibly quit in disgust (exaggeration, but only moderately) if you told me I could subdual someone to 0 with a fireball, because that means other mages are going to do it, and that's not only not how it works, it doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Hazard » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:15 am

What if subdual were optional for both. So if you want to die when defeated you can leave it as it is, but if you want to be knocked out and your enemy also has subdual enabled, then upon being defeated you just flop on the ground. Maybe leave the possibility to disable subdual for yourself in case you change your mind or the attacking player is being an arse-hat.

This way everyone is getting what they agreed to and can opt out at anytime. Would like to be able to fight someone without sending them away, or flat out taking their life. Maybe leave a small chance the person dies anyway, to avoid everyone just 'not murdering' anyone. Risk still there.

I don't know!

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by CptJonas » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:16 am

I would just say this...anyone ever played Gothic? Where every time you kill human, they drop down, stay there for like minute and if you dont finish them off they get themself together and stands with 1hp...Thats how I would like to see it done....once you go down in PVP...you lay on the ground for like 1 turn...and you are unhealable...after like 1 turn you would automatickly be healed to 1 hp and stand..unless your enemy performs on you action which would be separate button like player tool 1, which would finish you.....or you could use command like -killme and go into fungue...What would be so bad about it?
Would it be super realistic? No...
Is that super big problem in video game world with dragons and magic? Not so much....

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:42 am

My final take on subdual.

Agreeable ideas expressed so far:
* Non-lethal weapons. (truncheon?). -4 on hit with lethal damage, but no penalty with subdual on. Should still belong to relevant category.
* MAAAYBE subdual compatibility to the rest of the weapons. With -4 penalty. But only because pnp had this rule (and arelith implementation makes more sense)
* Clerical spell or alteration of clerical spell (like Harm) that lands the target exactly at -1 hp. This puts them into "dying" state.

Disagreeable ideas expressed so far:
* Non-lethal fireballs and magic.
* Removal of subdual penalties.
* Indestructible state past pvp death.
* subdual being on by default for everybody.

Those I can only see as an attempt to shield your character from negative consequences despite trying to do something reckless.
That's excessive handholding.

Current state of things on arelith is very reasonable. Wrongly directed spell rips people to pieces so you should pay attention to what you're doing. They can die. Death from player is similar to death from npc, which adds to gravity of situation. Trying not to kill someone when your usual swing can cleae several people at once is hard, hence the penalty. And if someone values human life and want to keep their enemy alive, they can do things the hard way anyway, because lives are valuable and people sometimes do not return.

Regarding other things.
-killme/-suicide is definitely going to be used to ride the death train and teleport. People already has been doing that using alcohol.
Easy subdual by default likely will have negative effect and create more drama due victim still being forced to remain within the conflict instead of having an option to chill for a moment in the fugue.
Making corpses invulnerable will cheapen life/death choices as well, and so on.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:11 am

I would disagree entirely on making corpses invulnerable.

This is how I would do the system as a complete rework with the minimal amount of added features.

Instead of subdual, we consider this a "Mortal wound" Status.

In this status. The PC is laying on the ground and is unable to be healed in combat, healing would require a dialogue option opened with the target and require a single healing kit to bring the target up to 1 HP, or healing capable class.

A single extra attack will corpse the player sending them to the fugue.

If the player is not healed within 3 turns they are sent to the fugue.

Corpsed player can be raised as they can be now, corpsed player can be bashed as they can now.


All this will do is add an extra step to bashing, whilst also allowing the ability to continue to RP, without the worry that a prone character will be healed in combat to continue fighting.

Here is an example of this new system

1. Enemy A meets Enemy B

2. A Hostile RPs B

3. A defeats B, B is lying on the ground mortally wounded

3. A continues to RP B, decides they wanna kill them and hits then with a coup de grace (AKA attacks B again)

4. B turns into existing corpse model, B goes to fugue

5. A bashes for the last time and gets a skull


Note that player A must consciously choose twice to destroy player B



"Why add this? What reason is there?" You may ask.

Its simple. Those that ask for a subdual to become the default are the players that wish for RP to continue after combat because as of right now combat means that RP is over and done.

More opportunities are created with this. It is not a carebear measure or an additional hand hold. It simply requires an extra choice to be made for the victor, and a continuance of RP for the loser.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Apokriphos » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm

The planned Subdual Expansion will offer numerous QOL Benefits to Arelith Players:

*Reduced DM Administrative Work from players concerned about the roleplay actions during hostility
*Enabling the ability to converse with downed enemies in an IC setting as opposed to a quick-draw race penalizing verbal roleplayers who are mid-type
*Allowing for better, more responsive conflict Storytelling - why we play this game in the first place
Griefmaker wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:56 am
I am still in the camp that all PvP should be "subdual" and that a character with 0 or -10 HP is unable to perform actions, though could still "speak" so there can be RP. And when a character is at this stage, another character has to consciously perform another hostile action to actually "kill" the character.
Volograd wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:07 pm
My builds are terrible, my PVP is worse, and I’m just not likely to win a fight, but this would negate all of that stress and give us non-combat players a chance to enjoy conflict and combat without the disappointment of missing out on what could be some tremendous role play.
MissEvelyn wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:36 am
It would definitely help foster a better RP environment, versus the aggressive kill-bashing we often see happening in the name of preservation.
Repeating arguments ad nauseam is not an ideal way to have a discussion. As I said previously, it should be available to bladed users, magic users of all types, in very realistic situations where a character at the epitome of their ability should be able to control their blows/spells to a fine enough degree to enable some conversation at the end. This idea that spells are suddenly much more destructive then they actually are IG just to support the argument that it would be impossible to control their damage by an adept spellcaster with metamagic is poor reasoning. Arelith is a world where the most powerful single hits are always melee based.

The idea that enabling subdual would shield players from consequences seems an odd argument to make. As many others have responded in this thread, PvP conflict is usually the last resort, and being a pinprick from death is hardly 'shielding one from consequence' or 'excessive handholding'. Instead, it allows both players to take part in the positive, character building roleplay that situation would normally not allow without subdual.

The idea that OOC grudges against characters whom they believe did not perform adequate role-play beforehand would be somehow exacerbated post Subdual implimentation seems wrongheaded as well. OOC grudges can be addressed by communication. Which is exactly how it is done in the real world, and in this game. Promotion of communication between sides IC is an ideal solution, and is what Subdual would be promoting.

Any -death command would only be usable while in the near death -subdual state, so I don't understand your 'death train and teleport' statement. If it is agreed that it should be more difficult to subdual a character as opposed to normal death, perhaps the Dirty Fighting feat could made available/perform the same function for all classes and could be taken to eliminate any use penalty.

I also agree that corpses should not be invulnerable. I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Currently the suggested structure is:
  • *A -death command to skip the gloating/monologue functioning only in downed mode. Perhaps a tick to death like a bleed out.
    *No use of pray/regeneration/or healing while the character is down, until some predetermined period of time afterward.
    *Healing the player would require entering into a dialog option, requiring a single healing kit to bring the target up to 1 HP, or healing capable class (Shrouded Wanderer).
    *A single attack will send the character to Fugue Plane as normal (Shrouded Wanderer).
Ultimately, even when server rules regarding roleplay beforehand are extensively followed, Subdual would significantly change the quality of roleplay between those player's characters, and lead to a more satisfactory experience and outcome between the players as well. This additional step would allow for a 'potential' continuation of RP for both the winner and loser in any conflict.

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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:21 pm

Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
The planned Subdual Expansion will offer numerous QOL Benefits to Arelith Players:

*Reduced DM Administrative Work from players concerned about the roleplay actions during hostility
*Enabling the ability to converse with downed enemies in an IC setting as opposed to a quick-draw race penalizing verbal roleplayers who are mid-type
*Allowing for better, more responsive conflict Storytelling - why we play this game in the first place
* Reduction of DM administrative work is an assumption.
* Benefits of being able to converse with downed enemy is debatable. You actually already can do that.
* Better and more responsive conflict storytelling is, once again, an assumption. Additionally, quite a lot of people do not pvp much and do not play the game for conflict storytelling.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
Repeating arguments ad nauseam is not an ideal way to have a discussion. As I said previously, it should be available to bladed users, magic users of all types, in very realistic situations where a character at the epitome of their ability should be able to control their blows/spells to a fine enough degree to enable some conversation at the end.
Magic users is definite no.
Let's grab a hardened army veteran, give him a hand grenade and ask to apply it in non-lethal fashion after removing the pin.
That's what magic is. You can't see someone's hitpoints, and don't know how much force to apply.
A priest or healer can possess sufficient insight (wisdom) to make a guess, but that would be a touch range spell.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
This idea that spells are suddenly much more destructive then they actually are IG just to support the argument that it would be impossible to control their damage by an adept spellcaster with metamagic is poor reasoning. Arelith is a world where the most powerful single hits are always melee based.
Most powerful hits are magic against crowd.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
The idea that enabling subdual would shield players from consequences seems an odd argument to make.
It is not. You go travel with your 10 level 5 friends, face conflict, and land hellball in the midle of the group.
What should happen is that everybody dies and you're now guilty.
Things like "extra step before death" shields you from such responsibility.
You're removing any element beyond your control, and that removes any reason not to use excessive force.
What's more, given how pvp rules are currenlty worded, with non lethal takedown you can continuously pummel the target (because 24 hour timeout requires target to be dead). And THAT can increase amount of dm administrative work.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
As many others have responded in this thread, PvP conflict is usually the last resort, and being a pinprick from death is hardly 'shielding one from consequence' or 'excessive handholding'. Instead, it allows both players to take part in the positive, character building roleplay that situation would normally not allow without subdual.
It also allows to cheapen danger of PvP, because when there's no danger of fuguing the opponent, there's less reason to avoid use of force.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
The idea that OOC grudges against characters whom they believe did not perform adequate role-play beforehand would be somehow exacerbated post Subdual implimentation seems wrongheaded as well. OOC grudges can be addressed by communication.
And OOC communication is already possible with someone you fugued, unless they have -notells enabled. When parties are far away from each other, it is even better, because they'll be less likely to breach pvp rules due to having a heated argument.
Apokriphos wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 pm
*No use of pray/regeneration/or healing while the character is down, until some predetermined period of time afterward.
*Healing the player would require entering into a dialog option, requiring a single healing kit to bring the target up to 1 HP, or healing capable class (Shrouded Wanderer).
*A single attack will send the character to Fugue Plane as normal (Shrouded Wanderer).
This is actually a step back from what we have now, and will make low level harder to play. Because currently character reduced to negative hp bleeds out, but can stabilize, recover and walk away. This suggestion negates such opportunity. And a single attack might deal 1 hitpoint of damage.
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Re: Subdual - How to make it an Arelith Acceptable Reality

Post by Void » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:33 pm

I think it would be best not to try to pull "DM Administrative WOrk" into the argument. Because the only way to know how much work there really is is being on the DM Team. Additionally, DM Team can speak for themselves, and should they be in danger of being overwhelmed by pvp reports they would surely do something about it.

Assuming that subdual somehow will reduce post-pvp hostility is just that - an assumption, and it can go either way.
I think that it will not improve but worsen the situation with reports, because it eliminates "cooldown period" in the fugue, meaning character is there, in the middle of conflict and might attempt rule breach and so on.

People after PVP or after losing PVP can be very angry, after all...

What I don't want to see is removal of unintended consequences, cheapning non-lethal option, reducing weight of the chocie of not going lethal, or allowing easy way to subdue oppoennt without killing them for everybody. Because those will impact the experience negatively, plus, as mentioned before, can form some sort of clique...

You already can have a chat with the target or subdue them in non-lethal way. However, this requires taking care on your part, and I believe this is a good thing.
Login name: GrayVoid

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