Re-evaluating Outcast Change

[Kuma]

after a hot minute of outcasts being award-based and seeing the violent prevalence of slaves in the UD as outcast-lite, i think it might be worth taking another look at it.

i reckon reducing outcasts to needing a Minor, but making slaves-on-character-creation also require a Minor award. these requirements are waived if you have a 30RPR, and you can still become an outcast or a slave through IC happenings.

also, considering they require an award and are less numerous, maybe looking at outcast recognition and removing their tags?

[Drowboy]

This is good. There's been a raft of slaves that aren't really slaves at all, pleasantly grinding their way up, which was the predictable result frankly. I've said it before and I'll say it again: people want to play in the ud, but don't want to get stuck in niche rp or with an ugly static model. This isn't a bad thing. Preventing them from doing so is.

Hell, just let UDers have reverse outcast senses to the surface: they can tell someone's a proper surfacer.

[DM Rex]

The tags were implemented to ensure people would not loaf about on the surface in plain sight which was seen a lot. Without the tags people didn't roleplay as being an outcast as often, and simply behaved as a 'person with access'.

With them in action, now people are actually being treated appropriately. Rather than every last person having to be sniffed out and being found as a co conspirator of the deep city.

When slaves were able to start taking writs, we've also naturally seen an uptick in that.

[Kuma]

that was more a side-suggestion; the main one is lowering outcast slightly and bumping slave to the same requirement, while enabling players with a proven track record access more freely.

[The GrumpyCat]

Truthfully I kinda like this point. Might be worth watching on a little longer, but whilst I agree with most of Rex's points, I can confirm that since the change - literally the day after, there has been a massive flood of slaves into the UD.

[TimeAdept]

If you restrict slaves, I guarantee you the next move you'll see will be a ton of pirates in Andunor.

(It already is this way, tbh.)

Continuing to restrict Human options in the UD is just going to make people move down the line until you've "been forced" to restrict all the options that exist. This will be an endless battle against an option that wasn't really hurting the server in any way shape or form. The better place is just to... let Outcasts exist as a usual option again, because there was absolutely nothing wrong with them doing so, and it was certainly a better option than the current slave-and-pirate "meta" that exists.

With them in action, now people are actually being treated appropriately. Rather than every last person having to be sniffed out and being found as a co conspirator of the deep city.

I feel like the latter was actually roleplay, and the former is right clicking and reading a tag, but you are the DMs and this is your call, I guess. In this case, add tags to surfacers who come below, because those people should be treated appropriately, rather than needing to be sniffed out and found out as a co-conspirator of Sunlander cities. Right now, without the tags people don't roleplay as being out of their element in a terrifying monster filled Underdark as often, and simply behave as a 'person with access'.

[Drowboy]

If you restrict slaves, I guarantee you the next move you'll see will be a ton of pirates in Andunor.

(It already is this way, tbh.)

Continuing to restrict Human options in the UD is just going to make people move down the line until you've "been forced" to restrict all the options that exist. This will be an endless battle against an option that wasn't really hurting the server in any way shape or form. The better place is just to... let Outcasts exist as a usual option again, because there was absolutely nothing wrong with them doing so, and it was certainly a better option than the current slave-and-pirate "meta" that exists.

With them in action, now people are actually being treated appropriately. Rather than every last person having to be sniffed out and being found as a co conspirator of the deep city.

I feel like the latter was actually roleplay, and the former is right clicking and reading a tag, but you are the DMs and this is your call, I guess. In this case, add tags to surfacers who come below, because those people should be treated appropriately, rather than needing to be sniffed out and found out as a co-conspirator of Sunlander cities. Right now, without the tags people don't roleplay as being out of their element in a terrifying monster filled Underdark as often, and simply behave as a 'person with access'.

All of this is completely right.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Time was being a human (or other surface race) living in the Underdark server explicitly against the rules - with systems like slavery and outcasts that changed.

I think unless you want to advocate for that, the comments above are right - one way or another, if it's within the scope of the game and the rules people will find a way to do it. Both because people tend to be drawn to the dark and edgy options, and also just because it's a wider breadth of options for a character.

[Drowboy]

If a slave gets freed, does it still have access to UD writs and the Hub portal? If so, given how known the slave-freeing mechanics are, I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing people making slaves for the express purpose of pushing them through said mechanics, acting as if they're an outcast with a funny little tag the entire time. In fact, wouldn't they also not have the outcast tag, as well?

[The GrumpyCat]

If a slave gets freed, does it still have access to UD writs and the Hub portal? If so, given how known the slave-freeing mechanics are, I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing people making slaves for the express purpose of pushing them through said mechanics, acting as if they're an outcast with a funny little tag the entire time. In fact, wouldn't they also not have the outcast tag, as well?

Honeslty that's my chief concern.

That happening a little? Not a big deal. If it becomes common place though, we'll need to re-evaluate the sitaution some how.

[sarithia]

If a slave gets freed, does it still have access to UD writs and the Hub portal? If so, given how known the slave-freeing mechanics are, I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing people making slaves for the express purpose of pushing them through said mechanics, acting as if they're an outcast with a funny little tag the entire time. In fact, wouldn't they also not have the outcast tag, as well?

Whilst I can't vouch for writs, regarding the portal - they, ex slaves, can get into the city through the hub portal but not use it to get out.

[Morgy]

If you restrict slaves, I guarantee you the next move you'll see will be a ton of pirates in Andunor.

(It already is this way, tbh.)

Continuing to restrict Human options in the UD is just going to make people move down the line until you've "been forced" to restrict all the options that exist. This will be an endless battle against an option that wasn't really hurting the server in any way shape or form. The better place is just to... let Outcasts exist as a usual option again, because there was absolutely nothing wrong with them doing so, and it was certainly a better option than the current slave-and-pirate "meta" that exists.

With them in action, now people are actually being treated appropriately. Rather than every last person having to be sniffed out and being found as a co conspirator of the deep city.

I feel like the latter was actually roleplay, and the former is right clicking and reading a tag, but you are the DMs and this is your call, I guess. In this case, add tags to surfacers who come below, because those people should be treated appropriately, rather than needing to be sniffed out and found out as a co-conspirator of Sunlander cities. Right now, without the tags people don't roleplay as being out of their element in a terrifying monster filled Underdark as often, and simply behave as a 'person with access'.

All of this is completely right.

As pointed out - I don't see why the RPing of sniffing someone out was a problem. Advocating just examining a tag more than decent investigation seems a step back to me.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm not in favour of relating between awards and RPR in any way. No one's time is more precious than another's. Therefore there's no reason why one player should have X options with minor award and another player should have XYZ options with same award. That's all I got. Everything else said here is spot on. The swarm of new slaves is probably because people got a hunch Slave path is next for added award so I'd wait a bit longer before I really evaluate the population in the UD once more.

[DangerDolphin]

If you restrict slaves, I guarantee you the next move you'll see will be a ton of pirates in Andunor.

(It already is this way, tbh.)

Continuing to restrict Human options in the UD is just going to make people move down the line until you've "been forced" to restrict all the options that exist. This will be an endless battle against an option that wasn't really hurting the server in any way shape or form. The better place is just to... let Outcasts exist as a usual option again, because there was absolutely nothing wrong with them doing so, and it was certainly a better option than the current slave-and-pirate "meta" that exists.

With them in action, now people are actually being treated appropriately. Rather than every last person having to be sniffed out and being found as a co conspirator of the deep city.

I feel like the latter was actually roleplay, and the former is right clicking and reading a tag, but you are the DMs and this is your call, I guess. In this case, add tags to surfacers who come below, because those people should be treated appropriately, rather than needing to be sniffed out and found out as a co-conspirator of Sunlander cities. Right now, without the tags people don't roleplay as being out of their element in a terrifying monster filled Underdark as often, and simply behave as a 'person with access'.

All of this is completely right.

+1

Remove tags or at least make them work both ways.

[cowboy]

I also wish outcasts could be of numerous races rather than just human or half-orc.

Skullport and other places like it usually have evil surface races who have retreated into the depths to conduct busines / find solitude for the weirdness.

I want to be deranged gold dwarf arms dealer.

[Emotionaloverload]

that was more a side-suggestion; the main one is lowering outcast slightly and bumping slave to the same requirement, while enabling players with a proven track record access more freely.

100% Agree. Slave should be a concept taken with a lot more care and the restriction should reflect that.


-S

[Xerah]

I like seeing more slaves. It’s a lot more thematic. That said...

Slaves should be level restricted (max like 5 if started as a slave or forced to wear a lower ability/power piece of equipment). It’s really silly to have super powerful slaves running around.

[Morgy]

I like seeing more slaves. It’s a lot more thematic. That said...

Slaves should be level restricted (max like 5 if started as a slave or forced to wear a lower ability/power piece of equipment). It’s really silly to have super powerful slaves running around.

If that were to happen you might as well just have commoners as slaves.

I think a 'tool' for owners to temporarily weaken their slaves would be more favourable, so if they need to be challenged the owner can easily overpower them if necessary.

[Petrifictus]

I rather have more slaves than outcasts. Having more slaves means more slavery RP for those who like it.
Putting outcasts behind reward was one of the best things and it did grew numbers of other UD-races.
We have all seen strong growth with the monster races, drows, duergars and deep gnomes since this change came.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

This is actually really simple. The Rp of having to be sniffed out wasn't a problem for its own sake- it would have been fine for everyone except outcasts.

Why? Because much like when you make a paladin, you are agreeing to fulfill certain restrictions to keep the class, one of the conditions of being an outcast is being notoriously reviled upon creation, and despite agreeing to that when making the character people are still trying to justify not doing it and having to be sniffed out.

It is this very insistence, repeatedly across the months despite the number of times this has been repeated, that reminds me why the tags should probably stay for a very, very long time.

If you are not notoriously infamous on the island, you are not an outcast, and you don't deserve to start in the underdark for pretending to be one.

PS. Sorry for my rant, I like Kuma's idea. Except the tag part.

[Kuma]

I'm not in favour of relating between awards and RPR in any way. No one's time is more precious than another's. Therefore there's no reason why one player should have X options with minor award and another player should have XYZ options with same award.

waived. not needed. unnecessary.

my suggestion is to require a minor award for outcast or slave.

i then further propose that spending an award is not required if you already have a 30; and can make them freely. not that you'd need a 30 AND an award.

[TimeAdept]

This is actually really simple. The Rp of having to be sniffed out wasn't a problem for its own sake- it would have been fine for everyone except outcasts.

Why? Because much like when you make a paladin, you are agreeing to fulfill certain restrictions to keep the class, one of the conditions of being an outcast is being notoriously reviled upon creation, and despite agreeing to that when making the character people are still trying to justify not doing it and having to be sniffed out.

It is this very insistence, repeatedly across the months despite the number of times this has been repeated, that reminds me why the tags should probably stay for a very, very long time.

If you are not notoriously infamous on the island, you are not an outcast, and you don't deserve to start in the underdark for pretending to be one.

PS. Sorry for my rant, I like Kuma's idea. Except the tag part.

how come you have to "deserve" to start in the underdark

[Kuma]

how come you have to "deserve" to start in the underdark

because the UD is an S++ tier start spot mechanically; people just didn't want the connotations that came with it.

i will say that i really oppose the whole "you're reviled and hated already on an island you've never set foot on" thing and much preferred foreign outcasts getting here via, say, Skullport or whatever, and enabling them being a go-between for supplies and imports and stuff from the surface. alas, this isn't even viable whatsoever since you can just get everything you need from the UD now, even coffee.

used to be that you couldn't get good kits, lenses, scrolls, temp essences, and so much more for a price that wasn't violently extortionate without organising outcast-led smuggling rings, and it was so much fun, but now it kinda resembles horde v alliance, at least in terms of the module.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm not in favour of relating between awards and RPR in any way. No one's time is more precious than another's. Therefore there's no reason why one player should have X options with minor award and another player should have XYZ options with same award.

waived. not needed. unnecessary.

my suggestion is to require a minor award for outcast or slave.

i then further propose that spending an award is not required if you already have a 30; and can make them freely. not that you'd need a 30 AND an award.

(EDITED) But is it not still tying RPR to award access? One player needs to spend the award, another doesnt.

[Petrifictus]

”how come you have to "deserve" to start in the underdark?”

How come Outcasts and other outsiders DONT need to prove themselves to deserve to be in the Underdark?