More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

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Seven Sons of Sin
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More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu May 21, 2020 3:50 pm

One of the best spaces of design I've appreciated is Prestige Classes offering +Caster Level.

Anyone who is a major opponent to the 3 level dip should also be a huge supporter. Caster-classes can now appropriately multiclass beyond 3 levels into thematic concepts that offer new narrative concepts, while simultaneously not gimping casters or half-casters to be wholly dispel-bait.

I am not balance-savy, but I am wondering if we should expand what is right now just restricted to Harpers, Palemasters, and Shadowdancers (for shadow mages) to other classes?

The idea isn't to break the 27/3 meta for a lot of classes, but hopefully allow for diversity among all primary-casters, and half-casters. Rather than be afraid of having less than the common 27 CL (or 29 CL with Spell Defense: Abjuration).

Here's my feedback thing:

Arcane Archer - +1 caster level every 4 levels.
Assassin - +1 caster level every 3 levels.
Blackguard - +1 caster level every 5 levels (because most BG builds are Blackguard-heavy?)
Cavalier - +1 caster level at 5th level.
Champion of Torm - +1 caster level every 4 levels.
Earthkin Defender - +1 caster level every 4 levels.
Red Dragon Disciple - +1 caster level every 5 levels. (I have no idea what the RDD builds are)
(Purple Dragon) Knight - +1 caster level every 4 levels.

Broken? Bad? Opens new doors? Opens too many doors? Doesn't really do anything?

In most instances, this would net 10 levels of PrC a progression of +2 CL. Maybe that isn't enough, but I wanted to err on the side of caution here.
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by TimeAdept » Thu May 21, 2020 4:27 pm

None of these would be worthwhile. The thing about PRCs that offer caster level is that the caster level is only valid in it's 8/10ths to full caster progression. Just look at all the PRCs in PnP that offer caster level progression but are never taken because it's too low. 1/4th CL progression may as well not exist.

Unfortunately, while the idea to get new build diversity is nice, none of this would do anything besides make the 26 favored soul 4 CoT a 27 CL caster.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu May 21, 2020 4:40 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:27 pm
None of these would be worthwhile. The thing about PRCs that offer caster level is that the caster level is only valid in it's 8/10ths to full caster progression. Just look at all the PRCs in PnP that offer caster level progression but are never taken because it's too low. 1/4th CL progression may as well not exist.

Unfortunately, while the idea to get new build diversity is nice, none of this would do anything besides make the 26 favored soul 4 CoT a 27 CL caster.
So if I was being too conservative, would you propose CL that scales more heavily at like a +1 CL/2 levels?
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

Half level CL progression would make more people take those classes. But that comea with the fact that then people will want the current caster level progression classes tobe 1 to 1 or 3/4ths. Which isnt bad IMO but bring sin the same issue,people will always take those over others because of the synergy.

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.

There is such a thing as"Balance of saturation" where there are so many options it then becomes balanced because it reaches the impossibility of one type of class being overly tuned IE 3 dips being so popular because of so many choices.


The other option is also just doing a 3 by 20 approach.


In any case I support more classes getting CL, but I think they should be new classes or if they arent they should be classes that get CL based on a specific class or path.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by TimeAdept » Thu May 21, 2020 5:55 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:40 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 4:27 pm
None of these would be worthwhile. The thing about PRCs that offer caster level is that the caster level is only valid in it's 8/10ths to full caster progression. Just look at all the PRCs in PnP that offer caster level progression but are never taken because it's too low. 1/4th CL progression may as well not exist.

Unfortunately, while the idea to get new build diversity is nice, none of this would do anything besides make the 26 favored soul 4 CoT a 27 CL caster.
So if I was being too conservative, would you propose CL that scales more heavily at like a +1 CL/2 levels?
You were being too conservative, however, I don't feel it's healthy to offer CL increases for these classes, because part of multiclassing casters is having to deal with a lower caster level. While I don't think we'd see many changes in AA, Cavalier, Earthki,n RDD, or PDK, allowing Assassin 5 to pick up another CL or 2 and CoT to pick up another CL or 2 isn't good for those classes to be able to do - one (the assn) was specifically the reason the assassin guild nerf went in to begin with, and the other (CoT) is already a great choice due to 2 epic feats.

In general, enabling ready multiclassing of casters without a tradeoff in caster power results in too many gains for no penalties - this is why by and large the only PRCs taken in pnp offer 1:1 CL increases. It's no coincidence those classes also tend to be the most powerful in the entire game system, because the caster gives up nothing and gains everything.
IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Ork » Thu May 21, 2020 6:16 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:55 pm
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.
Bingo. Give this man a medal.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Archnon » Thu May 21, 2020 7:06 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:16 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:55 pm
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.
Bingo. Give this man a medal.
These classes are ridiculously over powered right now. Gating them behind a specific rp type limits them. They would become the mandatory 5 level dip for most characters. I like the idea that they seem like a natural extension of many class concepts. However, they need reduced in power.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by TimeAdept » Thu May 21, 2020 7:35 pm

Yes, my proposal included nerfing them.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by R0GUE » Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 pm

Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
Arcane Trickster please!!!!
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.
In your solution, would you propose to give something to Harper characters in exchange for losing that which makes them unique?

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Kuma » Fri May 22, 2020 1:05 am

Ork wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:16 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:55 pm
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.
Bingo. Give this man a medal.
yes pls
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Hinty » Fri May 22, 2020 5:44 am

Not against the idea of Arcane Archer picking up a few caster levels in its progression. Might encourage a few actual Wizard or Sorc builds rather than 90% Ranger and 10% bard or is it 100% ranger at the moment? Always thought the class was a little lacking in the Arcane side of things.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by TimeAdept » Fri May 22, 2020 9:15 am

R0GUE wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
Arcane Trickster please!!!!
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.
In your solution, would you propose to give something to Harper characters in exchange for losing that which makes them unique?
Yes, that "something" is called "Being a Harper, having access to the Guild, and the continued ability to vote in any settlement's elections."

What about the Moonstars, the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Pirates of Luskan, the Ruathymni Reavers, Amnish spies, and any other number of canon FR organizations with wide reaching influence but with absolutely no mechanical representation in the server whatsoever?

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by R0GUE » Fri May 22, 2020 9:33 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:15 am
R0GUE wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
Arcane Trickster please!!!!
This would be my take on the situation, personally - by opening up the Harper classes with some changes to how they work.
Scout becomes Horizon Walker
Mage ebcomes Archmage
Priest becomes Heirophant
Master Harper becomes Seeker of the Song
Paragon becomes Crusader.
In your solution, would you propose to give something to Harper characters in exchange for losing that which makes them unique?
Yes, that "something" is called "Being a Harper, having access to the Guild, and the continued ability to vote in any settlement's elections."

What about the Moonstars, the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Pirates of Luskan, the Ruathymni Reavers, Amnish spies, and any other number of canon FR organizations with wide reaching influence but with absolutely no mechanical representation in the server whatsoever?
So this is not meant as snarky or an insult at all, it's just the best way I can think of to illustrate my feelings on the matter. You remember Syndrome from the Incredibles? "Once everyone is super, no one will be!"

I'd prefer the server slowly build up a library of cool PrCs for all those organizations, and add in other neat little mechanical benefits for them as well, rather than strip the uniqueness from a faction.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Kuma » Fri May 22, 2020 10:56 am

R0GUE wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:33 am
I'd prefer the server slowly build up a library of cool PrCs for all those organizations, and add in other neat little mechanical benefits for them as well, rather than strip the uniqueness from a faction.
please no. they'll never be able to be done actual justice, given how many of the benefits can only be portrayed properly in P&P of PrCs like Red Wizard, and they'd either need to be DM gated as well or we'll just open the gates to a host of unresearched paper-thin veneers for reasons to get those class perks. and the new classes we've been adding are already underwhelming mechanically as it is.
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Hunter548 » Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm

My biggest gripe is most of these just... aren't caster PRC classes. I don't get why, for example, blackguard or earthkin defender would give +cl at all.
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri May 22, 2020 4:39 pm

I always wondered why arcane archer doesnt give caster lvls to arcane classes. Or, at least, to mages, if bards would be too strong.
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by TimeAdept » Fri May 22, 2020 5:15 pm

So this is not meant as snarky or an insult at all, it's just the best way I can think of to illustrate my feelings on the matter. You remember Syndrome from the Incredibles? "Once everyone is super, no one will be!"

I'd prefer the server slowly build up a library of cool PrCs for all those organizations, and add in other neat little mechanical benefits for them as well, rather than strip the uniqueness from a faction.
I agree, in a perfect world where the server itsn't using asset limits as a way to cut down on content being added to the server, this would be great. Instead, we need to generalize and make content do double duty where possible, which means that IMO having 5 classes locked away behind DM permission for one very specific CG organization makes no sense to me. This means those classes would be better served being used as server-wide assets to support a variety of character builds and developments, while the Harpers (along with the Zhentarim, Moonstars, etc etc...) and other DM-gated things would be better used as more non-class related mechanics, such as still having the ability to influence elections, which, along with the classes, really seems like the main mechanical takeaway. I don't think the single guild, as much as I love Harpers, really needs 5 classes all to itself, is all. This is less about creating a "good/Evil" balance, and more about freeing content for the entire server's enjoyment.

Syndrome's remark is the core villainous philosophy of the movies btw - what he was supposed to take away is that when everyone is super, everyone still is - just in their own unique way that contributes to the world and to the "super-society" they live in. His perspective is warped and flawed while still having a nugget of truth. Making everyone "powerful" and "Super" in no way harms those who were "Super" first. It simply gives everyone tools to contribute dramatically.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri May 22, 2020 9:24 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm
My biggest gripe is most of these just... aren't caster PRC classes. I don't get why, for example, blackguard or earthkin defender would give +cl at all.
We might say the same of the Harper Scout!
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Hunter548 » Fri May 22, 2020 9:47 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:24 pm
Hunter548 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:35 pm
My biggest gripe is most of these just... aren't caster PRC classes. I don't get why, for example, blackguard or earthkin defender would give +cl at all.
We might say the same of the Harper Scout!
Sure, but the topic isn't about harper scout and most of these classes are more of a reach to my mind than harper scout.
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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Might-N-Magic » Fri May 22, 2020 10:28 pm

R0GUE wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
Arcane Trickster please!!!!
Arcane Trickster is a trap, arg!

But most of the OP's suggestions don't even make sense. Heck, half of them don't even have a background in spellcasting. Wut.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Purplemyst » Sat May 23, 2020 11:08 am

I like the idea of opening up the classes to be more generic rather than just for Harper's. However, I think if they were opened up, it should just be for good aligned characters. Evil already have plenty of classes/paths to play with.

With a Harper token perhaps it could just give additional benefits to the classes.

Edit: I've never quite liked the way classes are locked behind tokens. It means relying on it being approved and this delays rolling up a new concept. Plus there's the added strain of waiting for a DM to be around and they are busy as it is with how big the player base is now.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by R0GUE » Sat May 23, 2020 3:38 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:28 pm
R0GUE wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
Arcane Trickster please!!!!
Arcane Trickster is a trap, arg!
Hmm maybe it is, I just think something like ranged legerdemain would be great RP on Arelith.

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by a shrouded figure » Sat May 23, 2020 4:03 pm

How would people feel about 2/3 barbarian level to shaman CL?

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by Shrouded Wanderer » Sat May 23, 2020 4:12 pm

Purplemyst wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:08 am
I like the idea of opening up the classes to be more generic rather than just for Harper's. However, I think if they were opened up, it should just be for good aligned characters. Evil already have plenty of classes/paths to play with.

With a Harper token perhaps it could just give additional benefits to the classes.

Edit: I've never quite liked the way classes are locked behind tokens. It means relying on it being approved and this delays rolling up a new concept. Plus there's the added strain of waiting for a DM to be around and they are busy as it is with how big the player base is now.

Why not just have them open to all classes? Perhaps even have paths based on good alignments?

As it dtands they could do the suggested, then good alignment gets the original form as a -path Harper and the normal variants be tuned down.

Personally I really reject alignment based PrCs and as well I think its a misnomer to say evil PCs get more stuff.

Evil specific PRCs : 3

Good specific PrCs: 5

Good specific also gets access to paladin as a starting class.

As well theres only 2 evil PrC, if you count that most can be used by neutrals as well except one, that being blackguard.

And now 1 evil class, hexblade.


So far as evil: hexblade, blackguard, assassin and palemaster is neutral allowed so I wouldnt count this at all.


Good has: Paladin, and 5 seperate harper classes.

Now if you wish to take into account that a token is required for harper I'll point out that all of the evil class features, if exposed to literally anyone basically makes you an outcast from society. Meaning you must backtrack or hide your abilities.


Also Warlock doesnt count before anyone starts on that train.

If anything good/evil is fairly balanced with the exception that id say we need a better evil specific starting class for casters, and a good specific starting class for casters but thats for another thread I think

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Re: More PrCs should offer +Caster Level?

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat May 23, 2020 4:25 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:28 pm
R0GUE wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:41 pm
Shrouded Wanderer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:25 pm

IMO I think they should add PRCs like Archmage, or Arcane Scholar, Daggerspell etc... To vary up the meta.
Arcane Trickster please!!!!
Arcane Trickster is a trap, arg!

But most of the OP's suggestions don't even make sense. Heck, half of them don't even have a background in spellcasting. Wut.
Not necessarily, if you give them Sneak Attack on certain spells. Kaedrin did it on Neverwinter Nights 2, I'm sure it could be done here.
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