No new feedback here

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Jack Oat
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Jack Oat » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:39 pm

I think there's too much Stupid that gets gotten away with because it doesn't technically fall in a boundary that directs for an MoD or otherwise adverse action, but should ABSOLUTELY get a character killed.

I also think that such an attitude would force people to talk to one another more OOCly instead of being blockheads under the guise of "iT's WhAt mY cHaRaCtEr WoUlD dO!" and then shirking any repercussions by mashing that Fugue portal out and refusing raises, which has happened so many times it drives me insane.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:13 pm
I'd only agree to this if subdual 'downed' states were more common, and the action of killing a PC in PvP is super deliberate rather than a "ooops" or a "waaah what happened." Especially when it comes to the cacophony of big team battles.
Subdual is now the defaul state of PvP as far as I recall, and my thing was specifically toward people who respawn.
magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:10 pm
Seconded, but no more corpsebashing. I am very serious.
Agreed. Corpsebashing has always seemed like a poor-taste or bad manners option to be reserved for when someone has been a turd OOCly. Even then, trashbins exist.
NMan7496 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:41 pm
What I think Jack was trying to say was that these people will be, constantly, getting themselves into stupid RP situations, where the only way out is PvP, which ends in their death. Rinse and repeat a few times and they are permadead.

I don't believe he was, at all, implying that we can (or even insinuating that anyone should be) purposefully killing characters with MoDs just to permakill them.
Yeah. I'm by no means condoning head-hunting MoD folks. I AM condoning stupid people who don't take accountability for their actions being smashed.



As an added bonus, this sort of MoD would make "Epic Heroes" even more Epic. You actually ARE risking life and limb by being a stalwart knight who stands up to evil no matter what, but you also have to acknowledge that you may not live as long as you'd quite like.

For reference, Fixed Level had this system and it seemed to work pretty well for making people accountable for their actions. But Fixed Level was also kinda... Weird. In other ways.



Also, for note, this is just my stance as a player and is not reflective of any upcoming changes (that I know of) or the team as a whole.
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NPC Logger Number 2
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by NPC Logger Number 2 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:11 pm

If you want a place where everyone has a MoD and everything is settled with PVP just go to Skal since that's essentially what it is now.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Drowboy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:13 pm

There's EFU and Ravenloft, too, on the more hardcore side.
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by DangerDolphin » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:24 pm

EFU is a great server to go to for a more hardcore and meaningful death experience, but I don't think Arelith will ever have serious death penalties like that as it appeals to the broader audience.

As for PvP specific deaths, I could see more consequences to encourage graceful defeat over an issue - such as a longer time before respawn, but forced permadeath? I'm not so sure.

We are an RP server with PvP as part of the story, not a PvP server, so I wouldn't want to weight RP conflicts even more than they are now in favor of people who are good at PvP. There are many who are great RPers but not strong mechanically this would hurt.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by -XXX- » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:58 pm

Characters trying to be a hero against all odds (and common sense) can be bad, but players OOC chickening out of an IC confrontation that has been properly set up and built toward by the storytelling can be just as bad.

More serious consequences of PvP encounters wouldn't really solve the former issue and would have made the latter issue even worse.

There's enough WWE kind of trash talking on IG message boards with zero follow up as is...

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:44 pm

I like Jack's idea. In fact, I'm positively surprised that someone has a more radical opinion about Death than me around here. Death too cheap.

However... I read this..
Jack Oat wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:39 pm
I'm by no means condoning head-hunting MoD folks. I AM condoning stupid people who don't take accountability for their actions being smashed.
You might not be but that's exactly what's gonna happen and it's an issue. Players arent supposed to police RP, DMs here for that. I dont want to see a bash'em to 3 (or 0 lives in this case) all over again, even though, I would still prefer that over the existing system.
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Gouge Away » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:02 pm

Give everyone 10 PVP deaths but also 20 non-subdual PVP kills. If you kill 20 times, the Gods or other powers-that-be have had enough and its time for you to move on.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by NauVaseline » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:11 pm

I think a temporary level drain would be more suitable

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Fargreze
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Fargreze » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:20 am

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:58 pm
Characters trying to be a hero against all odds (and common sense) can be bad, but players OOC chickening out of an IC confrontation that has been properly set up and built toward by the storytelling can be just as bad.

More serious consequences of PvP encounters wouldn't really solve the former issue and would have made the latter issue even worse.
This. As much as I agree with Jack's sentiment that heroes would be realer if they really did put their IC lives on the line (traditional heroes die!!), I assume a lot of people are not OOC "ready" (mechanically or emotionally, and I think these are connected) for PvP encounters as it is.

What we need are frequent, controlled PvP arena hours in populated areas so that everyone can get their feet wet without consequences; that way, they'll be more confident, and willing to give it a go when the spectre of real conflict arises. Learning to fight on your character with your gear is superior to PGCC for the vast majority of players (who would benefit most from mastering their own tools against intelligent opponents).

This will help the quality of the RP, too, because people who've had PvP practice and training aren't as likely to panic and lens. They're not going to feel like their peaceful social RPG with occasional grandstanding has been rocked by PvP, they'll know what to do. A mechanically trained server is also going to deter 'powergaming' one-lining PvP hounds. It would be better to learn to lose gracefully when emotional story stuff is not also on the line...

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:53 am

I love arenas and sparing in the arena and whenever I played a character in Cordor I went to the arena with people and tried my best to explain mechanical things while doing it ICly and as "through my character's eyes" as I can, which is a lotta fun on it's own, but...
There are already plenty of arenas and I find that people will often only go spar in the arena if there's some RP involved, which is fine, except it takes away from their ooc "practice time" on mechanics. If they really want to git gud, honestly they should just spend more time on the PGCC and Kalo's builder, but if they dont do that and dont spend much time in arena except for the RP either...
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Floral Shoppe » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:11 am

This is a game with a lot of over 30 and 40 peeps whose free time is ruined by jobs and kids and who have increasingly dulled reflexes. I think we tend to be less interesting in “git gud” and are more into straight PVE and RP and even having some kind of pseudo-social life as we don’t get invited to cool parties in the real world any more.

I think if I was really into competition where I had to practice practice practice I’d pick another game anyway. There are way better options for that out there.

I know this means my character will usually (or always if my track record is indication) lose PVP but I’m here to have weird conversations about magic in character and other fun things you can't do in league of legends. That's the game I am playing. If you're playing an epic PVP battle that's cool too. There is room for both.

I’m not begrudging anyone or complaining about PVP but I don’t think you'll ever make everyone good at it or even interested. In fact if someone seems really hardcore about it that is usually someone I steer clear of.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:09 am

But then there are situations where people who dont invest the time to learn and practice the game (for whatever reasons there might be, which are all totally valid) cry out for less pvp and it results in people not receiving consequences for their IC actions because they feel they should always deserve a "way out" and do as they please, and too many of us (including myself, I addmit) have grown tolerant of that and give them ways out. This, in the long run, effects the server's spirit and it starts from people who dont want to be good at the game and wish to see it less mechanically competitive - which is a part of the game, like it or not.
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Floral Shoppe » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 am

Arelith is hundreds of players with very different ages, backgrounds, wants and needs and there's always going to be someone unhappy specially when PVP stops whatever else youre doing in its tracks. Complaining is part of the game too.

Honestly I think things are OK now. I don't think making PVP more punishing is going to do much but discourage us dirty casuals from even logging in because the gap between good enough to get around and PVP master is super intense and time consuming and I don't think I'll ever have time to be that person. Making the game even more casual is going to make PVP masters throw up their hands at all these weaksauce crybaby noobs who should go back to Animal Crossing, which maybe I should I won't argue that. There's no magic middle where everyone is happy but there's a reasonable middle where stuff seems to work and I think we're there more or less.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by dallion43 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:19 am

There is no need to make death more punishing.
Lag, disconnects, bored pros, etc, etc can easily cause the average player a sense of unhappiness.
Average player probably just came home from work, evaded the spouse and kids with his maxed out sneak skill and just wants to forget himself for an hr/two. Or they aren't necessary a mechanically savvy person, one of those we always prefer to hang out with since their RP is superb(usually).

People that taking death easy stop being so easy about it after they repeatedly end in their favorite place, from what I would imagine? At least around you. (As long as it IC, by the rules to the dot, and supported by SSs just in case).

Arelith is a small community, and enforcing something like that mechanically will just make it smaller.
Imho.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Irongron » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:11 am

There are currently no plans to change death penalties.


There will never be perma-death on Arelith.

Problems with people's RP (which are very often subjective) are rarely solved by a change in mechanics.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Poolbrain » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:01 am

Irongron wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:11 am
There are currently no plans to change death penalties.


There will never be perma-death on Arelith.

Problems with people's RP (which are very often subjective) are rarely solved by a change in mechanics.
I think this is true for most cases but as for death: If the player is scared the character is also very likely to be scared.

The most immersive servers I've played on has had a very unforgiving death system. To get stuck in a dungeon because it's too dangerous and wait for someone to run and get help while you and your group camps it out can be an awesome role play experience that one is not likely to experience in Arelith.

What I think is a good death system: No big penalty if ressurected, huge penalty if respawning without resurection (Losing a lvl is not a big deal on Arelith). No penalty for PvP (that just makes people grumpy)

Changes that could make this system work even better is: A system to help other players find corpses? Perhaps the writ system could detect dead players and give rewards for retrieved bodies. Also being able to be raised offline, possibly only at altars where they will be remain an injured placeable until reconnecting.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Petrifictus » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:17 am

While I do think death should be taken seriously and people being able to take all responsibility for their actions, be they good or bad, I think death system is fine as it is now.

I dont want to see players getting power to decide who should get rolled, as it would be abused and used to get rid of characters/players more on OOC reasons than IC. I would not trust anyone with such power.

Plus if we made death permament, it would more encourage the idea of ”solve everything with PvP because I dont want to deal with this!” Which is too common.

Try instead find alternate paths that dont need to end in PvP, people seem to be too trigger happy for it sadly.
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:23 am

I'd be all for hardcore one life permadeath personally, but I understand that it's never going to happen.
Edited for grammar, probably

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Gouge Away » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:13 am

There are servers where permadeath works and works well such as EFU. But they have a completely different system with low level caps (like, most characters don't make it to 10) so you can get your next character into the mix right away.

I don't think permadeath works if it means you grind for months just to potentially get squashed and have to do it again. A few people might like that but it's too hardcore for me. Survival horror has its place but I think Arelith works better as a Marvel movie where a character's true, final death is a huge event that doesn't happen until it makes narrative sense.

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:39 am

Gouge Away wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:13 am
There are servers where permadeath works and works well such as EFU. But they have a completely different system with low level caps (like, most characters don't make it to 10) so you can get your next character into the mix right away.

I don't think permadeath works if it means you grind for months just to potentially get squashed and have to do it again. A few people might like that but it's too hardcore for me. Survival horror has its place but I think Arelith works better as a Marvel movie where a character's true, final death is a huge event that doesn't happen until it makes narrative sense.
Oh don't get me wrong I don't think it's a good idea for Arelith as a whole. I think most people would hate it. I'm just the type of person who enjoys grimdark more than high fantasy and plays diablo on hardcore.
Edited for grammar, probably

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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:35 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:00 pm
10 life MoD on all PvP deaths resulting in a respawn. Just to see people squirm about having to accept the consequences of their character's actions.

Otherwise remove all death penalties.
i mentioned a similar system years back ut its not an MOD persay, its more like back to the old pnp system shock roll against your initial con score., and this was used on another server for years that had record player counts as well before the teams wanted to go public with an mmo to make cash.

However the system was simple. Whenever you made a char you started with 10 soul strands similar to our MOD. This applied to any class. If you die and from PVE a d100 is rolled and as long as you beat your level ie level 5 you had to roll a 6 or higher there was no penalty. If you failed your roll in this example you rolled a 4 you would then see the Wail of the Banshee vfx and a soul strand would be lost. Now everyone in the party or immediate area would see and hear the VFX and in case of multiple deaths, you would always have tells flying around to see who had lost a strand. level 30 for example would have to roll 31 or higher and there is no roll modifier just a flat d100 roll at death before loading into the fugue.

The system also didnt go active until you hit level 6 so new chars had a chance to quirky start up deaths

You didnt have stat penalties after the fact because death did have that chance to matter. Once a char reached 10 lost strands they were perm dead.
Now there was a feat tossed into the mix once you hit 21 level you could take and add 5 strands, and most who reached 21 level there did take it simply because that server had adjusted xp tables and you were pushing millions of xp to reach level 21 ( they were xp charts set via 2nd ed style 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-etc up to level 40 with a barrier at level 20 creating a true passage to become epic of 5 million xp to go from 20 to 21.)

I only bring this up again since i see remove all penalties is being tossed about, but something like this would also make death a worry because you rely on that scripted roll when you die.

remaining soul strands could be listed on the date scroll with rest water food etc for each character.
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:45 pm

You should just make a kudos thread for everytime someone -delete_character's after meaningful conflict. Pile on the praise for people who treat it seriously. Create a cultural change where it's okay to lose, and it's even more badass to sometimes never respawn.

Some players have a reputation for playing characters like this, and treating death like this, and they're some of the server's most beloved - in part, for that very reason.

Meaningful death is a server culture. Just go out of your way to send nice tells to people who are treating death seriously. Encouraging roleplay in a positive manner, especially tenuous conflict roleplay, can really help everyone go :)

in a non-passive aggressive manner.
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Re: No new feedback here

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:33 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:45 pm
You should just make a kudos thread for everytime someone -delete_character's after meaningful conflict. Pile on the praise for people who treat it seriously. Create a cultural change where it's okay to lose, and it's even more badass to sometimes never respawn.

Some players have a reputation for playing characters like this, and treating death like this, and they're some of the server's most beloved - in part, for that very reason.

Meaningful death is a server culture. Just go out of your way to send nice tells to people who are treating death seriously. Encouraging roleplay in a positive manner, especially tenuous conflict roleplay, can really help everyone go :)

in a non-passive aggressive manner.
This only works if the Kudos forum is an integral institution. I know I don't read 99.9% of kudos threads for a variety of reasons, and I imagine there's more than a few players who do the same, not to mention the players who aren't hugely active on the forums at all.
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