Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:23 am

We should move away from ECL altogether. It's for PnP. Not a multiplayer roleplaying game.

I don't know what negatives you could use to counter-balance, but yeah, something else.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:26 am

Honestly, I'd argue the gift system already does the job that ECL was originally intended to do - It provides an incentive not to just grab the race with the most inflated base statline. Certainly, I very much doubt that anyone's choice of character concepts (outside of rollock goblins, which have thankfully gone to the great -delete_character in the sky) has really been seriously influenced by 'Oh no, I'll have +2 ECL.' If the level penalty were removed and the gift restriction retained, I expect it would still work just as well in that regard (not that levelling speed is really an issue at the moment, anyway!).
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Itikar » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:36 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:23 am
We should move away from ECL altogether. It's for PnP. Not a multiplayer roleplaying game.

I don't know what negatives you could use to counter-balance, but yeah, something else.
We have already moved away from it in practice, thanks to gifts. ECL is largely irrelevant in the current game economy, due to writs but also rpr ticks.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by NauVaseline » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:03 am

Dr. B wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:06 am
Thank you to Irongron for listening to the feedback here and reverting the update to humans.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Ebonstar » Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:33 am

i think anyone who picks outcast slave path should lose one major gift since they were removed from reward lock. This helped readjust the surface race dominance in the UD and those that chose those paths at creation should have some kind of penalty beyond not being able to own property on the surface
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:02 am

Now that the storm is over and the dusts settles down...
Great update over all. I have a few points to address.

-Wild Elf still too strong for walking around without award or any ecl.

- Please leave Warlocks and dont take away Iron Horn because it's their only counter against high touch ac dexers they really cant dps reliably in any other way. The spell can be made to respect KD immunity if it doesnt already and it would really make it fair.

-The change to blinding speed was really on point. Really targets the problem without changing a lot outside of the problem (aka, wands/scrolls/potions/item take either full round or half round to use, regardless if you're hasted) so I like that change and it's not even a huge nerf. It effectively adds 3 seconds of wrap up drinking a haste potion when the character wants to refresh their divine might/shield. Quick slot potions of speed next to your divine might/shield. You're probably already doing that unless you're a pure rogue. It's a good nerf.

The rest I really have no opinion about. Its a lot to take in. We'll see how badly dexers need discipline now and str gear vs Balagrn's.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Kuma » Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:02 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:33 am
i think anyone who picks outcast slave path should lose one major gift since they were removed from reward lock. This helped readjust the surface race dominance in the UD and those that chose those paths at creation should have some kind of penalty beyond not being able to own property on the surface
and being identifiable by basically everyone and not being able to use NPCs and services in settlements

Anyway no it didn't "readjust" it, it emptied Andunor of humans until it was realised surfacers of ANY race can just wander down, learn Undercommon, and not have to waste a normal. Now you want to make Outcasts mechanically inferior to them? This doesn't solve the problems you think are problems, and in fact makes them worse.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Fargreze » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:03 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:02 am
Please leave Warlocks and dont take away Iron Horn because it's their only counter against high touch ac dexers they really cant dps reliably in any other way. The spell can be made to respect KD immunity if it doesnt already and it would really make it fair. We'll see how badly dexers need discipline now and str gear vs Balagrn's.
This. Warlocks need to be able to KD things with high Dex (and often Wis) AC, or a consistent way of dispelling that doesn't involve rolling ranged touch to hit. Balagarn's is the way of trying to balance this without buffing Locks versus things they can already fight. (Besides that, they definitely do want what blast damage they get on G. Dispel for every other matchup. If this fails you could also always give Locks a class-locked staff that adds a high amount of AB, but deals no physical damage - but it sounds like a risky thing to put in the module).

This change brings in some much-needed counterplay. We will see if the excesses of Dex are balanced out with dexers possibly going for ESF: Disc again, swinging the epic feat count in favor of strength builds (who nonetheless can't access the incredible B.speed or E.dodge), unless the KD cooldown change makes even strength builds get that ESF again. But if Called Shot: Leg didn't inspire it, what will?

Great update. I'm glad the upheaval is over. We almost had a server where every race was Wild Elf: played reluctantly for mechanical reasons by people who would rather just RP a human.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Nurel » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:28 am

Just dropping by to say thank you for restoring the ECL0 races, and thank you for preserving humans as the base race of the game.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Baseili » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:47 am

Fargreze wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:03 am
[Great update. I'm glad the upheaval is over. We almost had a server where every race was Wild Elf: played reluctantly for mechanical reasons by people who would rather just RP a human.
Upheaval? It was a single day that demonstrated once again that people will choose Power over RP. Every. Single. Time.
Hell, your own quote proves the mentality behind the "upheaval" that a race is only as good as its stats and any defence for its "RP" is merely a thin veil protecting its mechanical optimisation.

If the gift system was to allow for greater variety of characters, why not implement a negative to each positive? Or perhaps make having negative stats is impactful rather than dismissable? Make taking gifts a choice with consequence rather than outright power boosts.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 am

Baseili wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:47 am
It was a single day that demonstrated once again that people will choose Power over RP. Every. Single. Time.
Explain.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:04 am

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 am
Baseili wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:47 am
It was a single day that demonstrated once again that people will choose Power over RP. Every. Single. Time.
Explain.
Several people have said they would not touch Humans again until this was reverted. For the great majority of builds this equated to the loss of 30 HP and 1 Fortitude. Maybe the less of 1 AC/Damage/Save if you were going for divine feats.

If that is the sole reason why a player wouldn't touch Human again, it seems wrong. I can sympathise with people arguing that certain builds became literally impossible to do on Human, such as human monks not being able to get epic dodge and ki strike, or human barbarians not being able to reach 22 str and 22 con for mighty rage. But everything else? If Human was your concept play a human, just play a human with less 30 HP, the situations where you will die in PvP or PvE due to that are so so slim.

I would like for the changes to have remained, but understand why they were reverted and it doesn't bother me too much. But much of the reasoning in this thread to justify it seems to be made for the wrong reasons.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Tarkus the dog » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:07 am

- Please leave Warlocks and dont take away Iron Horn because it's their only counter against high touch ac dexers they really cant dps reliably in any other way. The spell can be made to respect KD immunity if it doesnt already and it would really make it fair.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Gouge Away » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:10 am

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:00 am
It's an odd world when we thank people for correcting their own mistakes.
I am not calling it a mistake or not.. But thanking someone for correcting a mistake is not odd, it's what you do when you have a bit of human decency.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:37 am

Gouge Away wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:10 am
But thanking someone for correcting a mistake is not odd
Correcting a change that was made without proper consideration for its ramifications isn't really something to be celebrated in and of itself, particularly when it looks like a rather reluctant climbdown. Keep in mind this is not the only major alteration to core mechanics which has not been properly considered in recent history.

Perhaps the thanks could be reframed as "thank you for listening", as that is something to be celebrated.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:39 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:04 am
Several people have said they would not touch Humans again until this was reverted. For the great majority of builds this equated to the loss of 30 HP and 1 Fortitude. Maybe the less of 1 AC/Damage/Save if you were going for divine feats.

If that is the sole reason why a player wouldn't touch Human again, it seems wrong. I can sympathise with people arguing that certain builds became literally impossible to do on Human, such as human monks not being able to get epic dodge and ki strike, or human barbarians not being able to reach 22 str and 22 con for mighty rage. But everything else? If Human was your concept play a human, just play a human with less 30 HP, the situations where you will die in PvP or PvE due to that are so so slim.

I would like for the changes to have remained, but understand why they were reverted and it doesn't bother me too much. But much of the reasoning in this thread to justify it seems to be made for the wrong reasons.
You are, again, understating the effects that keeping the change would have had. Playing a character with less potential power (and still far less than you're willing to admit) is not fun, and doesn't encourage RP. Being able to keep up with your friends and participate in all levels of play is fun, and encourages RP.

Humans are already at a deficit in many cases, for being unable to stack up +4 to a stat or benefit from racial skill bonuses, and their strength is in wearing many hats and being able to pull off class combinations that simply aren't viable on other races, but they've never been as good as their non-Human counterparts at those particular and many builds that synergize with racial abilities. If we want everyone to be able to run any class on any race without worrying about balance, the answer is to wipe the slate clean and remove all racial abilities from everyone, not to kick Humans in the teeth, and leave them in the dust.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Baseili » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:06 am

Having one less ability modifier should not be the defining aspect of a character, a Human with 17 strength is not lesser of a character than a 19 strength. Only less optimal.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Kuma » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:36 am

Baseili wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:06 am
Having one less ability modifier should not be the defining aspect of a character, a Human with 17 strength is not lesser of a character than a 19 strength. Only less optimal.
These stats, particularly things like Dex and Wis, can make or break an entire build. So technically, yeah, you're right when you say "Having one less ability modifier should not be the defining aspect of a character", because a Monk should be viable otherwise. But it isn't since you need those modifiers to get Ki Strike feats AND Epic Dodge, which Monk is balanced around.

This is just one of many such examples. It's not about the difference between 17 and 19, it's about whole build viability and the innate flexibility humans should have, but didn't under the changes.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Nurel » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:01 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:37 am
Perhaps the thanks could be reframed as "thank you for listening", as that is something to be celebrated.
That would be valid too! Though I have to say being listened to, even though it feels great and speaks tons about the dev team of Arelith, wasn't the point I was trying to make. I am one of those players who would never create an ECL0 race ever again if the update wasn't reverted, so I am exceedingly happy to be able to play my favorite races without suffering for it. Now I can create the kobold I always wanted, instead of being forced to make Gnoll or Orog due to the update.
DMs are not liable to make choices based on any kind of democratic procedure, hence "making a mistake and setting it right" is not a right approach, imo.
Baseili wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:06 am
Having one less ability modifier should not be the defining aspect of a character, a Human with 17 strength is not lesser of a character than a 19 strength. Only less optimal.
Arelith is RP, but is also hack&slash. "Less optimal" is bad, it is not a minor thing. I understand the people who wish to embrace the RP aspect of Arelith only and eschew all planning and mechanics and character building, but what about everyone else who enjoys leveling an awesome character? Would you rather have them farm awards for a Deep Imashkari character instead of playing a normal man? That would suck.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Baseili » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 pm

I played a Human monk, a 21 wisdom version which was probably the furthest one could go from optimal yet I reached 30 and even documented the experience, so you will forgive me if I take the "broken build" destroying a character as hyperbole.

We may have to disagree on what makes a character awesome at this point as to me its the player that makes things fun who qualifies as such, maximized numbers and carefully crafted plugging of weaknesses is nothing more than a spreadsheet given form in my eyes. Are the two exclusive? Not at all, however those who chase numbers often follow the power trends and spend most of their time trying to complete their goals rather than creating an interesting narative.

If you are asking what I would prefer for the longevity of the server? I would pick RP every single time. Why? Because an enviroment with mechanically weak characters can still be fascinating and fun. An enviroment with nothing but powerbuilds is a glorified arena.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Drowboy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:32 pm

Archnon wrote: I like the idea of slaves and slavery.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm

Pro-RP role/rollplayers are often some of the worst for "rollplaying their stats." Let's not go off that deep end.

Arelith's changed a ton of classes to require HARD ability scores at a certain threshold. You can make the Gift change, but you'd have to go back and look at all these classes at the same time - because they were designed with 2 gifts in mind.
Baseili wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 pm
Not at all, however those who chase numbers often follow the power trends and spend most of their time trying to complete their goals rather than creating an interesting narative.
This is such a sweeping generalization. Why are you so concerned with other peoples' fun

but if we want to wade into the waters of critiquing roleplaying, offering feedback, and fostering discussion on what makes good writing, let's go. I'm ready. You can't just toss out "creating an interesting narrative" with nothing to back it up.
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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Baseili » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:03 pm

I should clarify, I'm talking purely mechanical power not RPing those stats. I agree that literal 20 gallon drum of worms is not worth opening for the nth time.

If classes are designed in such a way then it suggests a more widespread issue, and possibly why the stat locked races required the gift change in the first place or is it a case of people being unwilling to take hits to more useful stats in order to reach those thresholds?

Edit: That is a fair comment, my reply would be that no character can be taken in a vacuum. We all have an effect on those we interact with and depend upon each to keep the server fun. A character who is purely for themselves giving nothing for others to work with, not even speaking, and only seeks to perfect their chosen build is a non entity in the enviroment. Those who follow the most powerful builds at the present time and discard it once the power is reduced or something better comes along: The monks made during the first update and deleted after the nerfs or the sudden explosion of Drow created with this one purely to "lockdown" the huge bonus to stats.

It is a minor issue in truth but it exists. A character can be both mechanically powerful and naratively fun, it can be mechanically weak and naratively fun but it cannot be powerful and unfun.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by Dr. B » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:41 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:37 am
Gouge Away wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:10 am
But thanking someone for correcting a mistake is not odd
Correcting a change that was made without proper consideration for its ramifications isn't really something to be celebrated in and of itself, particularly when it looks like a rather reluctant climbdown. Keep in mind this is not the only major alteration to core mechanics which has not been properly considered in recent history.
I... disagree? Thanking someone for taking responsibility for a mistake strikes me as quite normal, pro-social behavior, especially since the benefit of expressing gratitude is to encourage future instances of the behavior for which the subject is being thanked.
Perhaps the thanks could be reframed as "thank you for listening", as that is something to be celebrated.
That can't be right, because hypothetically, IG could have listened to us but not reverted the changes. Would you still advocate for thanking him if that were the case? Clearly we're thanking him for something more than just listening.

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Re: Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

Post by DM Titania » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:41 pm

It's perfectly fine to say thank you to any reversion. I think questioning why someone is saying thank you to that in turn, is probably not good forum decorum.

Dr. B, who may or may not actually be a Dr., has the wisdom to follow here. It helps keep a good bond between players and staff, and promote continued healthy feedback.
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