Double Weapons

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a shrouded figure
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Double Weapons

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:32 pm

I totally understand if the primary goal of this change was to reign in QStaffs and hopefully encourage dual wielding again- but I didn’t see double axe, dire mace, or two-bladed swords as a big “problem” to receive the +2 AB, they do cost an exotic feat. Just my $.10

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Xerah » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:37 pm

Consistency. You don't get +2 ab for equipping two daggers either. The goal of the +2AB is for 2handed weapon users.
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a shrouded figure
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:49 pm

But you don’t need to spend an extra feat to equip two daggers... lol. Fair enough I guess. I can finally justify making a dual wield character that doesn’t use a Double weapon!

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Xerah » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:03 pm

They are exotic since the base damage 1d8 instead to get -2/-2 AB instead of all the other options that can't get that high without going to -4/-4. You also only need a single 1 (vs 2) and 1 spell buffs up both sides.
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a shrouded figure
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:23 pm

Not at all trying to being combative, but 1d6 vs 1d8 is statistically irrelevant when you add all of aerlith’s damage modifiers and 7 attacks per round...

two buffs vs one... QoL vs Extra Feat, in my eyes this goes extra feat every time

Two weapons to buy vs one... I don’t find gold usage arguments very compelling- one could just as well argue that you lose a slot to enchant Unisaves ? Maybe?

Like I said I’m excited to try some new things now- but this change feels like it hurt the exotic doubles more than it hurt Qstaves and I guess I never notice the exotic doubles as being a big problem that needed nerfing.

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:27 pm

maybe I'm missing something but with this change, it really brings kukri back to the top tier dual wield weapon for none-monk. You already need the exotic feat for double sword, dire mace, etc... so why not take the crit range over the... 3(?) base damage difference? I must be missing something. Not needing to cast blade thirst twice is alright but it's not really that big.
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a shrouded figure
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by a shrouded figure » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:32 pm

I would agree with this sentiment. Kukri is looking really nice.

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Kenji » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:54 pm

Another thing to keep in mind is the weapon sizes. Some may choose knockdown over disarm due to their overall utility, but with this change, builds can now consider Disarm to gain an upper hand in dealing with all of the tiny weapon users. It's not just diversity among the weapon choices, but feat choices, too, now.
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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:57 pm

This seems like something the grim yeeter was talking about -

Quarterstaves were busted, but the other double weapons were not.

So let's nerf Quarterstaves by going after the 2handed bonus (seems fair), but ALSO target the other double weapons (which was unnecessary).

It's not like half-orc double-axe builds were ubiquotous (unlike QS builds).
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:15 pm

I feel like removing monk progression from QS's is the better solution here, since now a bunch of weapons no one uses already got nerfed even harder.

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by NauVaseline » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:38 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:57 pm
This seems like something the grim yeeter was talking about -

Quarterstaves were busted, but the other double weapons were not.

So let's nerf Quarterstaves by going after the 2handed bonus (seems fair), but ALSO target the other double weapons (which was unnecessary).
+1

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:11 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:15 pm
I feel like removing monk progression from QS's is the better solution here, since now a bunch of weapons no one uses already got nerfed even harder.
Please no. Quarterstaff is such an iconic weapon for monks and I love the aesthetic. Plus that just shifts the onus onto kamas, which is really just a minor QoL nerf since spell monks and ranger monks would have to buff two weapons.

I'm cool with the double weapon nerf, but I would like to see some more powerful exotic double weapons added to crafting to make up for it - preferably with high crafting reqs rather than race/class gates.
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Dreams
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Dreams » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:18 am

I don't see why all double-sided weapons needed to be nerfed to account for what should have been nerfed, which was specifically Monk dips using Quarterstaff. Instead, we could have:

- Removed the AB bonus only from QS.
- Removed Monk UBAB from QS.

This is similar to nerfing blackguards because warlocks are too strong. :)

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:21 am

Also a needless nerf to STR rangers, the weakest of all ranger archetypes and arguably one of the weaker melee archetypes in general at the moment.

the grim yeeter
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by the grim yeeter » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:21 am

Indeed, only quarterstaff should have been affected by this change, obviously. The other weapons in this category should have kept the +2 AB bonus. The "consistency"/"uniformity" argument is flawed, lazy and makes absolutely no sense at all (and it has never been used as an argument on Arelith before, as far as I know? Look at how severely convoluted Arelith's mechanics already are. Why is consistency suddenly a thing now? Especially if it's at the expense of proper balance. Boy, if consistency is suddenly something we strive for in Arelith's mechanics, myriad (other) things need to change).

This is another one of those changes that, unexpectedly, hits a good portion of players hard, and I can only imagine it has a strong demotivating effect on players currently playing a non-quarterstaff double weapon build. The change came out of nowhere (really, if changes keep being as drastic as they have been in the past years, this should change. Significant modifications to mechanics ought to be announced well up front, so that players finally no longer need to feel disappointed over and over) and is absolutely unnecessary (and before anyone starts wondering: no, I am not currently playing a character affected by this).

Quarterstaff specifically is the problem. Double weapon builds (aside from quarterstaff) haven't been on the problem radar since Cortex' first kensai/barb rework (the, I suppose somewhat related, shotgun/burst meta is a toxic issue. However, that didn't even nearly as much arise from double weapon AB bonus as it did from (among other things) the main cause: the lore update from Oct 14th 2019).

Double weapons were once given this AB bonus because going this route meant sacrificing significantly in terms of defense. The reason why this AB bonus was a problem on quarterstaff in particular was because defense wasn't lost despite using this double-sided weapon (owing to monk AC bonus and finessability meaning it could be used on a DEX-based character) while also keeping substantial DPS (owing, to a considerable extent, to the monk UBAB progression).

Yet another nerf for STR-based characters, while it is the DEX-based builds that are clearly superior these days. This change causes more problems that it aims to solve, as explained well by Hexgoblin in the thread that he started on this change: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=30728
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Wethrinea » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:47 am

I wish to second that notion that while a nerf of the QS dex monk is all fine and dandy, removing the large weapon AB bonus from all double weapons is really only bringing the nerf hammer to str dual-wielders who, as far as i know, there were not really many of in the first place.

Without the AB bonus there is no reason to use a non-monk double weapon. Unless you are a half-orc, maybe. The increase from d6 to d8 is neglible, and there are no craftable special double weapons (aside half-orc spesific), and none of them have a crit range or multiplier that you can not get from any one-handed weapon.

That you can get by with only buffing one weapon is also quite moot, as you always need a back-up weapon to sword'n board when you pitiful AC is getting crushed. Since you are not a dexer.

By all means, nerf the QS. But not the non-monk str spesific ones.
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Brandon Steel
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Brandon Steel » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:01 pm

Yeah I gotta say I don’t really understand the nerf for all the double weapons, I hardly ever see them. Quarterstaff on the other hand is very understandable.

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Wrips » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:21 pm

I think it can be just rephrased as "Finesseable weapons don't receive +2 AB bonus from dual wielding/two-handing in any circunstance." It's still consistent (even intuitively so) but doesn't affect the other dual wielding weapons aside quarterstaff.

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Gouge Away » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:15 pm

Yeah. +lots, double sided maces and axes aren't a problem.

I also think there's a tendency in recent times to mildly nerf outlandish problems (like this and divine dip shenanigans) in a way that causes more collateral damage to people who don't build optimized characters using whatever the most trendy uberbuild of the moment might be.

I think this really encourages players to play those optimized builds because they are much more nerf-proof. I am sure this isn't universally the case but it can feel like the most optimized and popular builds are all that seems to be taken into account when tweaks come down and your experimental "RP" build could easily get stung a lot harder than than the meme monk/paladin/ranger. I don't like to complain, honestly I don't, but I wish these changes were more surgical.

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TroubledWaters
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by TroubledWaters » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:57 am

This change really hurts half-orcs, which are already hamstrung by -INT.

Double weapons can also only take one set of enchantments, which I thought was the rationale for adding the +2 AB in the first place.

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:49 am

a shrouded figure wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:32 pm
I would agree with this sentiment. Kukri is looking really nice.
Oh gee, it's almost like there's always something on top that's "The Best" to bitch about, isn't it?

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Re: Double Weapons

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am

We just look for reasoning behind this change. We all pretty much agree it could easily be targeted directly at quarterstaff only, so we're looking for logic and reason (and I got my answer from Kenji. Kukri is tiny, thus has serious disadvantage against anyone with a larger weapon by 2+ sizes, which is medium and larger, and Disarm).
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Skibbles » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:22 pm

I'm probably in the minority here but double weapons are one of the goofiest things I've ever heard of and would rather them just removed honestly.

However for the sake of discussion I can get on board with letting them keep the bonus. I've never seen the insane output and universal application from a dire sword as we saw with the quarterstaff.

Though deep down I think it's mostly just because dire weapons are just... Silly.
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Nitro
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by Nitro » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:28 pm

Not any more or less silly than using a regular scythe as a weapon to be honest.

a shrouded figure
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Re: Double Weapons

Post by a shrouded figure » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:18 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:49 am
a shrouded figure wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:32 pm
I would agree with this sentiment. Kukri is looking really nice.
Oh gee, it's almost like there's always something on top that's "The Best" to bitch about, isn't it?
Whoa there, I wasn’t at all pointing to Kukri as a problem- and I’m thinking you’re the only one who read that as bitching. I was pointing out that they’re looking like a good choice over double weapons with the loss of 2 ab... turn down the sass mate.

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