Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

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Archon
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Archon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:57 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:16 am
Even the good changes are now bad ones, because they are, necessarily, so drastic that people's characters are suddenly becoming much weaker, very different or even invalid overnight.
I have had this experience now with two dex characters played 1-2 years apart in two connected implementations. First one was a deep assassin, and KD change that happened (when cooldown triggered even against the mobs) made my assassin so handicapped that I had to relevel it to SD to make it functional for adventuring. Now as I play a dexer again after a good chunk of time, everything changes 360 to the other direction once more and I am in the same spot again but in reverse.


KD becomes useful once more, which means discipline is mandatory again and the feat itself becomes a nifty addition to the kit - while it was not picked up by most melees between then and now. After going through a dramatic KD overhaul once, I did not assume that it would happen for the second time in a way a part of character's functionality depends on it.

I'd not be surprised if a bunch of other rogues would be in the same place now.

Someone might say I was stupid not to take discipline, but it simply wasn't necessary take after the first changes on the feat and how it behaved; most targeted discipline checks came from people who figured out to spam Called Shot:Leg, which was relatively rare to see.
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:32 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:00 am
Grandfathering is one of the absolute worst things that can happen.
Well, this made me super happy to read. I wish it were applied to all of the grandfathering that came before as well, but...at least the acknowledgement going forward is something.

As for the changes, I really don't know enough about how broken the bombs were to speak on them. If the Acid bombs essentially mimic the effect of acid fog, then yeah...that's probably way to good. As for the rest of it, well, like most everyone else I see it as an attempt to lower the power of Monk dip dex builds which is a good thing. The problem is that while they somewhat address that issue there are a gazillion other casualties that got hit way harder as a result, and it still doesn't address what makes the monk dips so good. Having your AB and AC on the same stat is already a good thing, especially with all the extra damage you can achieve on arelith. Adding an AC bonus to wisdom on top not only inflates said AC, it also increases ones will, traditionally the weak point of fighter class types. And that's on top of the most attacks per round one can achieve in the game. So yes, weaker gear will definitely temper these builds, but they won't stop them. They will however cripple everything else, which is tragic because while it may have gone overboard the viability of a dex fighter type is one of the appealing aspects of the server.

I can't really make a suggestion here on what's the best way to go because while I don't know all of the discussions among the devs the obvious answers to me (removing QS from monk ab progression, tiering wisdom AC based on monk levels) were almost certainly discussed and dismissed. They are just too in your face clean and simple to have been missed in the conversations you guys had. But while I'm not as omnipotent as some on these forums think they are, I feel very confident saying this solution will weaken any dex based build that doesn't have a monk dip, making them the only way to go going forward.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:36 pm

JubJub wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:46 pm
Something like the monk's robes weren't really all that powerful to start with, especially when you look at something like the second skin and honestly
Damage Immunity: Slashing 5%
Enhancement Bonus: Constitution +3
Enhancement Bonus: Strength +3
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +3
With just a 40 umd requirement.

I always felt Disciplne wasn't needed as much once you couldn't spam KD someone to death. The server always seems too occupied with trying to tinker and what happens is now people will all move to something else then more tinkering because now this weapon or this build or stat is too common or powerful now. Then this change was too much and now have to fix this and that. It gets where you don't want to do anything since you just know another tinkering will happen.
There's a reason second skin gets those stats.

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AstralUniverse
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 pm

Ork wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm
Regular rogues are still great. I'm sitting here scratching my head when regular rogues get: near-infinite haste, high AC, +2 ENCHANT, +2 AB out of stealth, +50% movement speed in stealth, trap improvement, grenades, epic dodge, and stealth. What are we griping about?
Pretty much this. I'm playing a rogue bg atm with venom immunity and it's been a real blast. I dont mind the nerfs and I still think my character is more than just functional. 76 ac with epic dodge, +5 mod vs DR, powders for the masses... And also the fighter version 24/6 with two weapon feats, specialization and crippling strike, still very good.
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by the grim yeeter » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:46 pm

JubJub wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:46 pm
Something like the monk's robes weren't really all that powerful to start with, especially when you look at something like the second skin and honestly
Damage Immunity: Slashing 5%
Enhancement Bonus: Constitution +3
Enhancement Bonus: Strength +3
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +3
With just a 40 umd requirement.
This armor gives 0 bonus AC. It's really not good for anything other than a druid/shifter, or I suppose a rogue with a lvl 15+ cleric friend (or a rogue making good use of the pit gnoll).
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jordenk
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Jordenk » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:49 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 pm
Ork wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm
Regular rogues are still great. I'm sitting here scratching my head when regular rogues get: near-infinite haste, high AC, +2 ENCHANT, +2 AB out of stealth, +50% movement speed in stealth, trap improvement, grenades, epic dodge, and stealth. What are we griping about?
Pretty much this. I'm playing a rogue bg atm with venom immunity and it's been a real blast. I dont mind the nerfs and I still think my character is more than just functional. 76 ac with epic dodge, +5 mod vs DR, powders for the masses... And also the fighter version 24/6 with two weapon feats, specialization and crippling strike, still very good.
Skipping past the fact that blinding speed isn't actually haste, rogue ms is 30% at lvl 24 and grenades just got nerfed into oblivion... here's the point.

The issue is not that it is impossible to build a great rogue now or theorycraft an op one. Nor is it that mine is completely useless. It's that many people who built Rogues or other classes in the past (not in maybe the exact way you're describing) are getting hit by this stuff because of the nature of the nerfs when they are in fact NOT the actual problem. When my PC has AC in the mid 50's, AB in the low 40's and no BG for divine saves, hearing you two say "well yah it's fine, look what I have (76 AC, div saves etc) doesn't do me any good.

Now, if I could re-level to adapt to the systematic changes that have nerfed the way I (and clearly OTHERS) have built their Rogues, then absolutely I would agree and say "what are we griping about, just fix it and no issues." That is at least 25% of my point here in the original post. If you're not hugely affected, great! I'm very happy for you in earnest. Just because your rogue is still great doesn't mean others' haven't been whittled away on in a frustrating way (excluding monks which definitely need it).

EVEN THEN, if you are playing a monk/rogue dip or ranger/monk and a nerf comes across (I'm sure there's more coming) that changes the way your build works or its viability, the team should over relevels. There are tools to do it now after the lore/UMD change (as I understand it) and it does no damage to server health, in fact it makes players feel that those making decisions and these changes actually care about how it may affect people playing these PC's rather than taking the stance of... "yah it's an evolving server, things change I'm sorry you don't like it."

For me grenades were a tool in my kit, for some it was a cornerstone of their build and they were playing "Grenadiers." This wasn't just a mechanical gimmick but a core part of the RP and character identity. Can their character still be played? Yah, is it as effective or viable? No. Did grenades really need to get nerfed? Nope, still haven't heard a single reasonable argument in this regard. And even further there are about 5+ different ways to "adjust" grenade gameplay without just nerfing their damage significantly making them objectively an "ineffective by comparison" action in combat compared to most alternative present to well built epic PCs.
Last edited by Jordenk on Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gouge Away
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Gouge Away » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:51 pm

The complaint is *not* that rogues are now useless, it is that a tool in their arsenal was significantly weakened and there's a question as to why. Fire and acid bombs are a sometimes-used tool that's fun to have up your sleeve and satisfying to use when you pull off a good throw but I don't get the sense they were abused or significantly OP.

The question in my mind is just "who was this change for." It obviously doesn't benefit rogues and I don't think anyone else would isolate fire bomb tossing rogues as one of the servers most egregious pvp menaces that needed to be squashed. So it may speak to over-tweaking the game for the sake of tweaking which I think is in itself something to be mindful of.

Halibutthead
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Halibutthead » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:58 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:37 pm
Ork wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm
Regular rogues are still great.
Pretty much this. I'm playing a rogue bg
yes, we know divine rogues that were capable of getting 70+ac weren't hit by this nerf at all. the balance team here shook the nerf bat at them menacingly, but hit the non-70+ac rogues over the head with it.

that's not to say that they're not playable, but there really isn't a reason to not play a cheese build, when we consistently hit everything but the cheese. regular rogues are fine, still. they just have to get more wands, their grenades aren't as useful, and they still can't push those insane numbers for the luls

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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Nevrus » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:31 pm

Just wanted to pop in here to say that the improvements to Disciple's Wraps for unarmed monks are appreciated.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:07 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:55 am
Aspect beads are going to have the -1AC removed, as a note.

So, a 3 stat item that can take a greater rune is already a successful 5%. If you wanted to hard 5% then masterwork rune it, that's still a very powerful item that saves you a few steps.
the beads got the -1 ac added in this latest update

i know alot of people dont care about 2 AC but when your not playing a powerbuild and more middle of the road character 2 AC is a big drop. Fine Elven Boots losing a dex point and those beads getting a -1ac is a -2 AC drop, and no im not playing a dip Monk, which is why I even suggested the Monk abilities to not go into effect until level 5 like what we did to SD with HiPS. Then you dont have to keep adjusting gear one item that has been around for years at +2dex and that everyone can wear.

I see that Power creep is an issue, but making major class skills like monk rogue and bard skills not activate until level 5 will cancel the dip culture and make your balancing much easier
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:55 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:31 pm
Just wanted to pop in here to say that the improvements to Disciple's Wraps for unarmed monks are appreciated.
If you're referring to the item's value in regards to runic enchantments then how can you tell the value has changed? I understand these 'special' items have pre-set, custom gold values so the value isnt necessarily different now?
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Nevrus » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:02 am

...They are planning to add +1 AB and +1 Unisaves to Disicple's Wraps to compensate unarmed monks for the loss of the +1 wisdom. That's what I'm grateful for.
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Re: Recent Update (Items & Grenades)

Post by Seekeepeek » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:37 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:02 am
...They are planning to add +1 AB and +1 Unisaves to Disicple's Wraps to compensate unarmed monks for the loss of the +1 wisdom. That's what I'm grateful for.
i'd go with +1 AB in the start.. would hate to have uni saves on the gloves already.. and then if they decide to remove it.. loss said unisave you spend a lot of money adding on your gloves.

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