Pace of Updates

[Anomandaris]

Honesty it's not even about abuses, it's about encouraging character turnover.

Please don't get me wrong, I entirely understand them when we have one massive change (the UMD change) or lots of incremental small changes (the recent skills changes) which effect almost every character.

But having some changes leave older characters behind a bit honestly isn't so bad.

Older characters have a lot of benefits. Often they have the best property, best items, huge amounts of gold, excellent contacts and a vast array of IC memory/knowledge to draw on, and it's reasonable that, as a payoff for this, they may not be on the cutting edge curve of mechanics.

Making rebuilds too ready would remove this. So I'd really like to keep such for really huge changes.

Honestly I am genuinly shocked by the change of culture of late in reguards to this. Back before the UMD changes, pretty much NO ONE asked for a rebuild, because Rebuilds... basically didn't exist. But now it's relitivly often we have to tell people, 'Sorry no, we don't do rebuilds, just -delevels.'

So whilst I don't object to rebuilds for huge, grand sweeping changes I really want to limit them in general going forward.

While I'm responding to you with a quote Grumpy I think the heart of this message is also directed to Irongron as the head of the server. There is a shared sentiment that it's disheartening having your PC affected by multiple and continuous nerfs/mechanical changes. This creates a "why bother" kind of feeling that has kept me (and others) from logging in on many a day if I'm being honest. On the flip side there's a warranted appreciation for investment by the volunteer community working to keep the ecosystem fresh and thriving.

What Grumpycat said has been a sneaking suspicion of mine for some time. This is the first I've seen it overtly stated, that being the fact there is in a way deliberate value in this process because it encourages character turnover. I appreciate the honesty on this though it is a little frustrating to have this suspicion validated. For people that really invest into a character there is a natural arc to it and of course opportunities for graceful exits. Sometimes we overstay that line sometimes we don't. However the arbitrary timing of a release that changes how your PC is built does not necessarily even remotely coincide with the story arc/progression. There are plenty of people that find themselves in this position a month after creating a character when they are still making an impact and getting into their story building. Alternatively not everyone have the same playtime or ability to keep track of all this stuff.

The idea that one would incentivize rolling a PC and building a new one over "remaking" one seems to actually focus the OOC mechanical value of building a new PC to match the current meta rather than the value of developed IC narratives and plotlines. Not to mention I don't have the time/energy/inclination nor the trust that things are stable enough to follow this logic and invest in something new, as I feel it is likely to be nerfed/change at any moment. The focus on balance seems to emphasize (accidentally?) the importance of COMBAT & PVP balance over narrative. I find this to be a fairly overt, ironic cultural aspect for an RPG server but maybe (I'm sure) people disagree.

What we have now is a culture which is a little obsessed with mechanical balance, especially for what should be an RPG server. The grenades change is a perfect example. This is volunteer time and there is almost an infinite backlog. Did grenades really need to change? What did this accomplish? Was it negatively affecting server health, almost no one has said yes or presented a reasonable argument for it. Did it annoy a bunch of people and probably ruin a few niche grenadier builds? Yep! This is a perfect example though there are many.

Now let's look at a change like the ship functionality, which adds a whole new element of play and RP opportunity. This is fabulous. Disguise & cover changes, +1000. I'm sure there are dozens of other concepts like this that have zero impact on individual PC combat mechanics but add or expand upon new, rich ways to explore and interact with the ecosystem. These kinds of changes get added and implemented often, but I wonder why we so obsessively prioritize the constantly tweaking and nudging mechanical balance instead of more stuff like this.

I'm not saying ignore balance changes, but the cultural compulsion is a reaction to the regular griping of individuals/cohorts regarding builds/classes and it's pretty clear to follow the pattern. We could all just take a breathe and say, yah there's some wonky stuff out there but the server is amazingly well balanced for the game we're dealing with and the nature of people/gamers to power-build/optimize & find exploits. Make some changes to egregious things (probably the only one I could think of right now is monk AC on dips & maaaaybe insane save meta) but don't keep trying to hyper optimize balance ever week. Just accept that achieving actual "perfect balance" would SUCK as it would be equalized DPS per round and survivability per round, making the whole game very bland and boring. That's assuming it's even remotely possible. So do we even intrinsically understand that? Or are we just chasing our tail trying to approach this point of hypothetical "balance" with no end in sight.

There will always be a power gap & skill gap between build options and players. There will always be a "meta." Nothing you do will change that for about 100 reasons. If we see something that is so oppressively overpowered it bleeds over into the RP side and you have groups of (insert build) taking over settlements through mechanical power or destroying the joy of players across the server, then yah change it. Otherwise, please please please just leave it alone or change it more slowly/subtly so we can focus on stories and enjoy the characters we spent so much time investing in. Literally invert the logic used today. Be far more cautious and restrained towards making changes affecting the builds of PCs unless it is on the 1st standard deviation of extremes.

And lastly, yah offering relevels every week is insane. I agree that doing so for only things that substantively affect your PC makes sense. But often that is a grey area that people disagree on and then it leaves people feel screwed over. The fact that there are multiple updates which (at least) perceivably ~could~ warrant re-levels inside a given month represents a development strategy that is more akin to a game in beta phase, not that's been around for decades (not in the cadence of releases, this is awesome, but in the focus of releases as "fixing" balance issues etc rather than new content).

TLDR: Balance is impossible and in some ways maybe not even a worthy goal past a certain point. Make changes to balance only when something is so overtly broken it is negatively affecting RP in a empirically observable way (not just limiting build diversity or making one build slightly weaker than the other). Focus on narrative/content/RP tools. Avoid the trap of chasing perfect balance as it creates a culture of "PvP mechanical balance is the more important thing on the serer not RP!"

[Gouge Away]

I think your rose tinted goggles are coming on a bit there. Even back on the old forums the question of rebuilds popped up now and then, but it was always refused so it quickly died down again until someone unaware of the no-rebuild policy came to ask the question again. What changed was that rebuilds started being granted, which of course means that people started asking for them a lot more frequently because it wasn't a rock-solid guarantee of a "no" any longer.

Exactly, bringing the subject up was taboo and got a barrage of really negative replies on the forum, mostly from other players oddly. Then feylocks got free rebuilds after some update and suddenly it was on the table.

I'm not pushing for at-will relevels or free rebuilds with every update but it really does help a lot to know one is on the way when you see a lot of changes that undo your build (a build you made with the best possible info available at the time.) I hope for regular opportunities to rebuild characters every now and then, not too frequently but once a year if nothing else, just to be able to adjust to all the changes that happen in the meantime. If nothing else it makes the game more fun as a player to not feel like your character is left behind mechanically when they still have some story left and fun does need to be part of the equation here.

[Xerah]

The focus on balance seems to emphasize (accidentally?) the importance of COMBAT & PVP balance over narrative.

A player/character's narrative endeavours are not ruined because you have fewer stat points on your gear or grenades do a bit less damage or that your Divine might and Divine shield now take 12 seconds to cast rather than 6.

We have a team of people that discuss these (potential) changes/ideas and weigh if they are necessary or not and it was pretty universally agreed that the things that have been addressed were necessary. You've stated that people have an obsession with optimizing characters, so they do know when they are well above the curve and these things shouldn't come as a surprise.

It's unfortunate that these are necessary, but numerous things were overtweeked that resulted in us needing to take this approach.

[CorsicanDoge]

Honesty it's not even about abuses, it's about encouraging character turnover.

Please don't get me wrong, I entirely understand them when we have one massive change (the UMD change) or lots of incremental small changes (the recent skills changes) which effect almost every character.

But having some changes leave older characters behind a bit honestly isn't so bad.

Older characters have a lot of benefits. Often they have the best property, best items, huge amounts of gold, excellent contacts and a vast array of IC memory/knowledge to draw on, and it's reasonable that, as a payoff for this, they may not be on the cutting edge curve of mechanics.

Making rebuilds too ready would remove this. So I'd really like to keep such for really huge changes.

Honestly I am genuinly shocked by the change of culture of late in reguards to this. Back before the UMD changes, pretty much NO ONE asked for a rebuild, because Rebuilds... basically didn't exist. But now it's relitivly often we have to tell people, 'Sorry no, we don't do rebuilds, just -delevels.'

So whilst I don't object to rebuilds for huge, grand sweeping changes I really want to limit them in general going forward.

You're not wrong. If I had to choose old, solid connections on a character over, say, a +2 str I'd take the former any time given I wasn't imposing too much as an old character and those times you strike gold with the right group of people really overshadows any bleeding edge of mechanics you might find yourself in.

So rebuilds weren't even a thing back in the day? I'm guessing it became a thing after the UMD change and it's just snowballing from there?

[Anomandaris]

I don't mean this as combative or arguing with "you" I hope you understand it's all in good faith. I just think it's an interesting conversation and kind of think the essence of what I said is overlooked in the nature of the response. If you'll indulge me in good faith here's a few thoughts.

The focus on balance seems to emphasize (accidentally?) the importance of COMBAT & PVP balance over narrative.

A player/character's narrative endeavours are not ruined because you have fewer stat points on your gear or grenades do a bit less damage or that your Divine might and Divine shield now take 12 seconds to cast rather than 6.

You've kind of nailed it, this is 100% true. The thing is, so thus is the inverse true, being that it's not improved by said changes either. HOWEVER, the fact that this windup takes 2x as long can fundamentally change the way the character is played into combat and thus dictate someone might build it completely differently or not opt for those two feats. It can make it less "fun" to play. The issue is then that a meaningful change to how a PC is played is made and no appreciable benefit to RP quality is a result. So why bother unless it's a MAJOR problem (not just an objective balance problem)?

The focus on balance seems to emphasize (accidentally?) the importance of COMBAT & PVP balance over narrative.

We have a team of people that discuss these (potential) changes/ideas and weigh if they are necessary or not and it was pretty universally agreed that the things that have been addressed were necessary. You've stated that people have an obsession with optimizing characters, so they do know when they are well above the curve and these things shouldn't come as a surprise.

The takeaways I get from this are twofold:

1) Builder beware. If you build something powerful and optimized you should know better and not be surprised when it gets nerfed. This is a concerning disposition honestly. If it's valid it's valid. I don't think you mean it this way but to me this comes across as almost a kind of indifferent to the major bummer factor this has on players. I think it's kind of a dangerous mentality to have.

2) The team decides collectively what is necessary. But how far does that translate to implementation? I can see the process likely being a suggestion or idea comes up, team decides "great yah change it/adjust it," then a dev runs with it and decides the nature of the change from an implementation standpoint. Not to harp on you in particular, you do tons of amazing work for the server but just to use grenades as an example. Did the team decide on the numerical ratios for grenade changes, or trust you to run with it? What you did may have been perfect but this process would leave the door open for individuals to take an idea and implement it in a way which is imbalanced or over-nerfed because consensus and review is tricky with volunteer time and remote teams. As you yourself stated, this is part of the reason you think it's important to fix things, because this happens a lot on net-new functionality where someone runs with it and implements something kind of broken. The same thing happens on nerfs as well however in the other direction.

The focus on balance seems to emphasize (accidentally?) the importance of COMBAT & PVP balance over narrative.

It's unfortunate that these are necessary, but numerous things were overtweaked that resulted in us needing to take this approach.

Is it necessary though? Sure in some cases but in others we've kind of just run amok with this notion of necessity. This necessity is the very assumption/premise I'm calling into question. Why is it necessary? This kind of default thinking of "these changes are necessary to balance" is an interesting (and admittedly at least somewhat valid) stance, but I think we've taken it too far to our detriment. Balance is a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. So what is that ends and how can we measure when it's been achieved? The whole post I wrote really was exploring this. There is greater harm in over-tuning and adjusting than leaving some things which are just a little off alone. It's a different philosophy but one I think may have some value given what (pats of) the community has expressed.

I'm kind of wondering if it's not something we should reconsider a bit. And if something is actually "necessary," let people re-level. In a vacuum looking at a specific change I could agree and say oh just deal with it. But if that PC using Div Might & Shield next week(s) has the scaling benefits of said Div Might & Shield changed based on CL, it all starts to add up and have a pretty significant impact. But the team wouldn't see EACH change as a "major change" and thus no re-level might be offered. Myself as example I've had gear changes, grenades & very large HIPS change(s). Or the team may hold the two stated perceptions that have been shared thus far being:

1) You shouldn't have built that and known better, so tough cookie.
2) PC turnover is healthy so we don't want to over-do re-levels to allow these PCs to stay 'up-to-date.'

Anyways I don't want to go back and forth tooo much on this so (we all have other responsibilities) so I'll probably leave it here. I guess I'm just inviting people to consider this idea that this process of continual balance is presently overdone to the server's detriment as it causes player fatigue and only minimally (if at all in some cases) actually improves the quality of play or RP on the server. We probably agree that one can't improve the quality of RP with balance updates, that is up to the individual players. And if we're a RP server, that's really what we're all after. At the end of the day it's "your playground, we just play on it." That said, the smiles of the kids on the playground make the whole thing worthwhile. Thanks to you and the whole team again for all your hard work.

[The GrumpyCat]

The idea that one would incentivize rolling a PC and building a new one over "remaking" one seems to actually focus the OOC mechanical value of building a new PC to match the current meta rather than the value of developed IC narratives and plotlines.

This is slightly dissagree.

Dislaimer: I do agree that for MAJOR CHANGES, things like the UMD change, or the cululative change of the skills ect- there should be rebuilds offered. Fine.

However, as you just said, mechanics don't rule all.

You can (generally speaking) always delevel and/or remake if it means that much to you. And if you remake, then yeah, you loose some equipment and proeprty - but that is honestly very good for the server. It prevents any power creep, and it frees up property for other people to use.

And if you absolutly cannot deal with loosing the above - then you'll have to deal with being mechanicaly sub-par to people.

[Gouge Away]

I think character turnover is oversold as a good thing. I think it happens too much on Arelith, frankly. Long term stories and relationships are a good thing too. I think the vast majority of players know the time to delete story-wise and those who don't want to delete probably just won't for whatever reason (that's their play style, cool by me.)

The thing that positively encourages turnover is not making old characters feel less and less part of the new meta through nerfs and class reworks. That often just frustrates people into quitting the character, hopefully quickly wrapping things up but often just dropping out completely. Just give them rebuilds if they want them (not at will, but every now and then to catch up.) That's just not a good way to get people to end things, that's like a boss making your job more and more intolerable until you quit.

I think instead positive encouragement comes from the writ system that allows you to start fresh and have someone who can be part of the world again in a short and tolerable amount of time. That, the epic reward cash-in system and the introduction of new classes and races are really enough to encourage fresh starts.

[ImWithThisGuy]

I'm actually a bit astounded that so many people are upset by the cascading changes. Perhaps it's because I've never used meta-builds, but even when my characters were (And are) affected drastically by new changes, it's not something I ever take too personally. I'm disappointed, sure. But never to the extent I would ever ask people to stop doing something they enjoy! It's been said an endless number of times that D&D is a horribly balanced game, and that even with numerous changes, NwN being an extension of it only stands to highlight those flaws.


I've been a casual player on Arelith to my first day, and I can still recognize why the team makes a lot of their changes, even with them knowing the consequences, and subsequently the mighty backlash of upset players. They have announcements dating back even a whole year ago stating that many changes were in the works, and that with the addition of the new city, a lot would need to be done. We're seeing that now, because not only do we have the city change up and coming, but a known and roughly planned rebuild as well. It is in everyone's best interests that they be implemented as smoothly as possible, but simply by looking at it makes it clear it will be a bumpy ride.


It's not ideal to have gold thrown away and wasted, it's not fun feeling like you've lost hours of progress; And it's not at all rewarding knowing that your character has been severely weakened in some form or another. But it's a simple risk of participating in something that is 'too powerful'. I've always hated the term "meta-slave", but those who knowingly or unknowingly follow such a meta are doomed to fall when the tower eventually collapses. I'm mostly speaking of items here, admittedly, because millions can be dropped into a basin and easily be forgotten for the incredible power of a full set of 5% gear. Doing so represents a risk, in both the creation of those items, as well as whether or not that item is now 'too powerful'. It also states quite well on what our priorities are, because gold and time spent on in character events is permanent in memory, whereas 5%-ing closer resembles gambling.. It can go incredibly well, or terribly awful; Such is the price of true power, and that really should be expected.


But even in the topic of builds the meta is ever changing, with examples of the huge and nearly invincible 30 Monk meta a while ago, the current monk rangers and divine rogues, and even further in the past with the dominant ReflectBarbs, Sorc-adins, GruinCombo wizards, Divine Power PaleMasters, or timestop+truestrike Weaponmasters. Each of these had much worse consequences merely by existing at their peak than only a loss of gold and/or time. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm glad to see those gone or adjusted, or able to be combated at the very least. Stability is and always will be valued, which is exactly what the Devs are striving for, but it is the nature of both our world and Arelith's to Keep Changing.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I actually experience my unoptimized builds often getting nerfed. These are not just 'well this only effected the guys well above the curve'. In fact unoptomized builds often 'don't matter in builds discussion' (like if you are trying to do a strength based first monk).

In fact it sometimes feels like "people who can't complete a story arc within 3 to 6 months don't matter, git gud and level faster and, or player more if you want to be relevant."

That being said, I really am not upset about recent changes, but I can understand the sentiments of everyone. I personally think hard 5 % meta on equipment is what ruins the game for many people. These item changes would not have caused people to be sour if squeezing in hard 5 percents wasn't a thing. I myself feel like I can't even bother with end game because id probably sooner quit than I would make 10 masterly damask weapon.. i spend a long time just to get one lol

[a shrouded figure]

Personally- I look forward to updates. That’s typically the first thread I check and I’m disappointed when there’s nothing new! Keep it up team!

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Personally- I look forward to updates. That’s typically the first thread I check and I’m disappointed when there’s nothing new! Keep it up team!

Yeah, i think the thread would have better labelled as pace of meta change.

I too like the updates, but Arelith in general (before all the updates) has had a "keep up with times" mentality within the build scene for a while, to a certain extent, where nerfs having unintended consequences on already suboptimal builds sre just "dont matter memes".

[a shrouded figure]

I totally hear where you’re coming from- but in my brief stay so far on Arelith, dev focus has (in my eyes) has not been so much on “keeping down the meta” or “moving the target” as much as keeping players mortal. Epic or not, you will know fear.

Let’s be honest, it’s a 20 year old game with little to no score board and sketchy mechanics at best. Our characters don’t live in a highly ranked, hyper competitive, all or nothing arena. They live on a little island in a mystical land full of wonder and amazement. Most of the “hyper meta” folks that I run into quickly fade into nothingness on my adventures. In fact it’s the down right terrible builds that seem to make the most lasting impression and enjoyable experience for me.

I am a firm believe of “you do you” but honestly if you’ve been here for over a few months, it’s quickly obvious that this really isn’t a “power gamer” server. It will happily entertain them and keep them busy- but it’s a world of constant flux thanks to an incredibly dedicated /volunteer/ team.

Best couple bucks I’ve spent on a video game in YEARS.

Again thank-you staff for the constant awesomeness