Fixture Spam

[Dreams]

Fixture spam isn't a great thing. We have these amazing areas that have been put together through hundreds of hours of design and hard work, building this atmosphere of wild adventure. Then someone comes along and thinks, 'Hey, you know what would be cool? Putting pot plants on every transition and covering the area with extra random junk.'

I'd suggest we think about restricting fixtures in wild areas in the same way we restrict planting fixture bushes. Have some specified areas where they can be placed.

Alternatively, maybe people could cool it with the spam?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

That particular zone you are referring to has a quarter in it and a garden, I think the fixture limit is fine. People should just more diligently remove bad fixtures. And if they keep popping back into place, report the person doing it for not being nice. Because things are a shared space, seeing 5/60 and deciding to fill everything else is not being nice to other players.


I personally like wilderness fixtures because it allows for weird stuff to happen. I've stumbled onto occult sites a few times while I explore. One of them in the Lost Desert had a message board even, with occult writings. So I hope they won't be removed entirely.

[MalKalz]

A lot of wilderness areas - like trade roads - already have lower fixture limits to reduce the clutter.

We will continue to review areas as always and make adjustments as needed. Albeit, this is a general statement and not related to the specific instance being discussed above.

The best thing people can do is think about what they are putting, where it is being put and what purpose it serves. Try to keep it tasteful for everyone, but also be true to your vision.

[Irongron]

A lot of wilderness areas - like trade roads - already have lower fixture limits to reduce the clutter.

We will continue to review areas as always and make adjustments as needed. Albeit, this is a general statement and not related to the specific instance being discussed above.

The best thing people can do is think about what they are putting, where it is being put and what purpose it serves. Try to keep it tasteful for everyone, but also be true to your vision.

Pretty much sums it up. Another good question to ask yourself is what the local spawn group would do with your fixture nest? If you think they would burn/eat/sell or otherwise demolish it then it's generally a good idea not to bother.

[the grim yeeter]

The best thing people can do is think about what they are putting, where it is being put and what purpose it serves. Try to keep it tasteful for everyone, but also be true to your vision.

Pretty much sums it up. Another good question to ask yourself is what the local spawn group would do with your fixture nest? If you think they would burn/eat/sell or otherwise demolish it then it's generally a good idea not to bother.

You both put way too much faith in players.

I fully agree with OP's sentiment. When I walk through, really, the majority of Arelith's areas, I see it's been submitted to pointless, bland, polluting and obstructing fixture spam, which almost always makes me ask myself: "Why?", "What is wrong with the original area?" and/or "What did you really think this would add?". As a player who frequently presses Tab, there are areas where a significant portion of my screen is just constantly a light blue colour. And more often than not, it is because of excessive amounts of very out-of-place (e.g., indoor-themed fixtures placed in wilderness areas and vice versa) fixtures with poor, dull descriptions, or even no description at all.

We are being given absolutely phenomenally beautiful areas, many of which are a result of hours and hours of work, only for them to be ruined, truly. I would be all for quite severely limiting the amount of allowed fixtures in a good number of areas. That, or fixture placement should be monitored more closely, but that'd just be another task added for the DMs, which isn't ideal.

[Irongron]

You both put way too much faith in players.

I fully agree with OP's sentiment. When I walk through, really, the majority of Arelith's areas, I see it's been submitted to useless, bland, polluting and obstructing fixture spam, which almost always makes me ask myself: "Why?", "What is wrong with the original area?" and/or "What did you really think this would add?". As a player who frequently presses Tab, there are areas where a significant portion of my screen is just constantly a light blue colour. And more often than not, it is because of excessive amounts of very out-of-place (e.g., indoor fixtures placed in wilderness areas and vice versa) fixtures with poor, dull descriptions, or even no description at all.

We are being given absolutely phenomenally beautiful areas, many of which are a result of hours and hours of work, only for them to be ruined, truly. I would be all for quite severely limiting the amount of allowed fixtures in a good number of areas. That, or fixture placement should be monitored more closely, but that'd just be another task added for the DMs, which isn't ideal.

You know, I make these areas and in fact fully agree with you. I've been lowering fixture limits across many areas this last year or two, and will do more. It can be absolutely depressing to work hard, often for weeks or months on an area to see it built over in that way.

I recall doing a tour with the journalist for the vice article and I had to keep saying 'wait, that wasn't me!' Every time we hit some really ugly out of place, poorly spelt, addition, to which he generally relied 'Yeah, I figured...'

I still worry, today, that new players won't know the difference at first glance, and many fixtures can make our professionalism go through the toilet.

Some years ago player goblins plastered Andunor and the UD in 'oboogoboo' flags, which I eventually had to ask DMs to remove, as they were actively driving new players away from what was supposed to be content for everyone.

Everyone one staff knows I have this attitude to fixtures, with one even joking that the OP must be me on an alt account, but...whatever my own views I come back to the same dilemma I'm often being faced with, and one that I've put at the heart of my overall philosophy...

To what extent do we want players to play 'our way'. I already create the world, drive the overall direction of system changes, do I also want to get involved in how players express themselves or roleplay? I know a lot of servers do.

Sure we have light touch systems like RpR but overall we generally look at what players enjoy, and do not interfere too heavily. Players really love the fixtures, and the creative expression that comes with it.

Many of us will take a subjective look and decide some are great, and others ghastly eyesores, but to the players that make them I suspect even the latter are works of beauty.

So yes, we have new guidelines for exterior fixture limits which are gradually being introduced, but however much a large part of me wants my vision to remain pristine and unpollutted the fixtures themselves are here to stay.

[Thalion]

So, i found this thread very interesting to read. i recently decided to make a little 'wild home' for one of my characters, somewhere well out of the way and rarely do i encounter other players there (something that matches well with the character who chose to live in this rarely traveled place) and i am very thankful that i have the ability to do this. That being said i also understand that as its a 'wild area' things might happen to this little living space i made out of fixtures, even just simple griefing.

My intent is in equal parts to be a place to allow my characters own story to develop, as they show others this place, and share its use, as is it intended to be something for others to stumble across, and maybe take the time to read all the descriptions and effort i put into the fixtures, and maybe generate some interesting RP for them.

Now i will also say that i really, really dislike territory markers, flags and such that claim wild regions as belonging to a settlement. I also dislike player factions placing territory markers in a mob controlled zone. would the local Gnoll or Orc tribe take kindly to some tribe they never heard of claiming their turf? but in this scenario, i do think player agency is important, as it allows story arcs to develop. Though i do think it would be entertaining for the local NPC monster tribe to put up their own fixtures in response to outsiders claiming their territory.

Personally i find the agency of leaving a mark on the player world to be more beneficial than detrimental. the only suggestion i would really have is about placing fixtures too closely together in 'mob zones' for two reasons, one, i have more than once accidentally blown up multiple fixtures t once on accident while fighting mobs, and two, the 24 hr rule on fixture vandalism is makes any kind IC pushback on territory claims irrelevant when someone puts up a pillar, two statues, and two flags at every transition.

[Ebonstar]

I understand border markers, but the crazy I95 billboard and plant fixtures have gotten like the ones for the firework mecca South of the Border. every ten feet is a potted plant or a sign pointing to this shop or hey there is a shop way out on this cliff etc

its gotten crazy, and worse is in places with limits already like 60 and people remove useful things like chairs to put more plants

[-XXX-]

I wonder how viable changing the fixture limit to only a handful of fixtures per area per player would be, rather than having the general fixture cap that we have right now.

As for the 24hrs rule, I believe that is for stealing fixtures only. Blowing fixtures up leaves remains that can be repaired.
Btw. I am curious about how long do these persist when left unattended - I am of the mind that they should be made to disappear after 7 days if that's not the case already.

[Might-N-Magic]

Honestly, what should happen is simple.
In wilderness areas, fixtures should be limited. Like single-digit limited.
But everywhere that isn't a private residence should have "fixture decay" in that after something like 30 RL days of non-interaction the fixture just poofs and eats itself, gone to oblivion.
So many signs or whatnot on the server are defunct, out of date or just stupid, but orphaned and sitting there. If people care about them, then let the owner come and pick them up and put them down again once a month, week, or whatever. Otherwise, they take care of themselves and get yeeted off the server.

[mirvv]

Its a great idea, the degradation and erode of fixtures.. with a small addition. If you touch the fixture, it should reset the timer, as those are cared of to remain in good condition. the rest of that no ones care could destroyed eventually! i like it! also it will give the way to tell which area, fixtures, markers...etc is still belongs to some active group / rp.

[AstralUniverse]

But everywhere that isn't a private residence should have "fixture decay" in that after something like 30 RL days of non-interaction the fixture just poofs and eats itself, gone to oblivion.

This makes tons of sense. Why hasnt it been a thing for the last decade. A fixture could even have a warning in it's description when the timer ticks 20 days and then a description in red will appear at the bottom that the fixture needs tending.

[Eira]

But everywhere that isn't a private residence should have "fixture decay" in that after something like 30 RL days of non-interaction the fixture just poofs and eats itself, gone to oblivion.

This makes tons of sense. Why hasnt it been a thing for the last decade. A fixture could even have a warning in it's description when the timer ticks 20 days and then a description in red will appear at the bottom that the fixture needs tending.

I would agree on this for some things, like flowers and whatnot, but for others? There are some really awesome old fixtures, statues, altars, etc, that are from years and years ago. And sometimes maybe it goes a bit before someone can interact with them. It would be a shame if they were lost just because someone didn't tinker around and make sure to poke them every month.

Maybe only in particularly dangerous areas.

[mirvv]

Well the eradication counter could be higher, tho all who like/ respect very old fixtures (like myself) than why not give some love to them and touch on a visit. tho maybe an auto-cleaner for server wi(l)de would be efficent way to clear out the mess.

it can be a reason to go here and there as goal to save those fixtures as well, as pilgrimage

[Irongron]

I won't put a destruction timer on wilderness fixtures.

Much I find excessive clutter annoying there is just too much player history there. I'd never be comfortable destroying that.

[Itikar]

I would agree on this for some things, like flowers and whatnot, but for others? There are some really awesome old fixtures, statues, altars, etc, that are from years and years ago. And sometimes maybe it goes a bit before someone can interact with them. It would be a shame if they were lost just because someone didn't tinker around and make sure to poke them every month.

Maybe only in particularly dangerous areas.

It is not a bad idea in principle, but I agree with Eira above, there are many awesome old fixtures that with such a change would be irremediably lost. And this would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, really.

If some new low efforts fixtures have been added to a handful areas, the solution is to remove those. Touching the old ones that are not offensive in any way and actually enrich the server would result in a net loss for everybody, and would not, in my view, balance the benefit of removing the trash.

[Drogo Gyslain]

I won't put a destruction timer on wilderness fixtures.

Much I find excessive clutter annoying there is just too much player history there. I'd never be comfortable destroying that.

I'm going to call this statement out to genuinely Thank You.

On behalf of the players who... sometimes they aren't the most epic of writers, sometimes it's a bit sloppy sure, but it's the heart and soul sometimes of our abilities.

Arelith offers something that very much is never possible elsewhere. The sense of persistence, the sense of being able to make things that live on and create a living, breathing world that doesn't just get washed away at the end of the day.

Those 'crappy fixtures' that people seem to now complain about may be something small to you, but I can't count the number of times I've gone into somewhere like Darrowdeep and seen [Buppi] on a couch and thought 'oh, that's really cool that that's survived this long, or the headstones along the Bramble watch path just south of the ranger station... The Nerelith Headstone in the Abyss and even things like the garden of Wharf town that was planted 3 IC years ago.

These things give the world a living, breathing touch that the DMs and Admins, as hard as you work, could never do on your own. Sure they may not be up to the cannonicity we would want from a DM placed fixture with all the special writing touches, but it has the heart and soul left in it from people of a decade ago that left their mark, and to me, a piece of them still remains.

The Elven Coronal Statues, The Golden Halls memorials, The Standing stones of the forest, The Paintings and Gallery in Cordor, The salt lick in the underdark...

I could name item after item that IC, are fixtures that have endured and it would hurt the entire culture if they just became obsolete because you wanted an arbitrary limit placed on how long they should exist.

You want to deal with it? Find a way IC to deal with it.

But don't force those of who who love and enjoy a persistent environment with love, history and culture to just toss that away because of your short sighted desire to 'control the spam'.

Because where you see spam, I see the beauty of the creativity of the people who are not on the DM staff being expressed.

Thank you Irongron, for not line-wide punishing Arelith because of the comments of a few people who feel that item-spam is a bigger problem than what it really is.

[Kuma]

the rules specify you can only steal one thing per day per player

this is roughly translated to one item from a fixture pile at a time

bashing without destruction of the remains is not theft; the remains can be repaired

so one could theoretically bash a lot of really terrible fixtures at once and if the remains are unattended for long enough the whole thing dissolves into meme dust

enjoy

[Party in the forest at midnight]

But mind you if you keep bashing someone's fixtures every day and they keep getting repaired, you're breaking the be nice rule. It's better to report repeated fixture spam to the DMs so they can handle it.

[Drogo Gyslain]

But mind you if you keep bashing someone's fixtures every day and they keep getting repaired, you're breaking the be nice rule. It's better to report repeated fixture spam to the DMs so they can handle it.

I was thinking the same thing. It would classify as Griefing pretty quick and would fall under the Be nice rule.

[Skibbles]

Don't forget that fixtures, even some 'spam', can also enhance some areas that never ever see traffic into places people might visit.

A good example is the colloquial "Undergarden" that someone put together about two years ago in the UD portal chamber. It's flush with plants and furniture and bookshelves but people actually go there as a result.

It's a completely dead area without transitions otherwise, and the only way to attune is to get yoinked by someone else.

[Floral Shoppe]

I will share something I've noticed and in retrospect negatively contributed to. Someone or some group will try to claim an area by spamming a ton of fixtures making it "theirs" like they are planting a flag on the moon. The only way for others who may not agree with this is to remove the fixtures, bash them or spam their own in a fixture war. I think there is an attitude that if I plant more signs and statues here than you I get to say what goes on in this area. This leads to significant and ugly clutter and I do not know how you fix it.

Also on a similar note I have seen players try to change the look and feel of an area which they may not realize or care is to the detriment of others' RP. For example an area is designed to be shady and evil and they go in and set up tons of beautiful statues and plants to say they've cleaned it up. For one I don't think the NPCs would let that stand and for another any evil or shady PC there now sees an area designed for their aesthetic changed by the will of a probably absent other player and usually not in a way that leads to good RP. Basically if you're trying to permanently beautify or defile an area that was designed for the opposite you should consider whether you're going against the spirit of the area and if it will really do anything but annoy others who want to use the space too and whose RP may have a more natural claim to it by module design. Not that such things should ever be taboo but it should be done with care and to give anyone who might have an objection a chance to.

[Drogo Gyslain]

I will share something I've noticed and in retrospect negatively contributed to. Someone or some group will try to claim an area by spamming a ton of fixtures making it "theirs" like they are planting a flag on the moon. The only way for others who may not agree with this is to remove the fixtures, bash them or spam their own in a fixture war. I think there is an attitude that if I plant more signs and statues here than you I get to say what goes on in this area. This leads to significant and ugly clutter and I do not know how you fix it.

Well, considering that there was just a solution for a similar situation that was just handled, I would again find RP ways to address said issues. If you are willing to roleplay, there is -always- a solution. You just have to be willing to find it without resorting to fixture bashing on a grand scale or larceny.

[Gouge Away]

Well, considering that there was just a solution for a similar situation that was just handled, I would again find RP ways to address said issues. If you are willing to roleplay, there is -always- a solution. You just have to be willing to find it without resorting to fixture bashing on a grand scale or larceny.

There's "I'm having a problem" and there's "we're having a problem." You can solve "I'm having a problem" through in-game RP but "we're having a problem", which is what I would call excessive fixture spam, is a community discussion.

I'm for deterioration and limits to how many fixtures one character can create and place, whether actual amount or a cooldown. One determined player can make a huge mess by generating dozens or even hundreds of fixtures.

[Royal Blood]

When I was a new player I found forges every 10 paces. Sticking out of walls, trees, houses. I thought it was the dev design because I didn't know fixtures were a thing. My initial thought was like wow the devs are so tasteless this is so meta.

So, I think fixtures can be a problem especially for new players who may not understand what they are!