Save the Nave (y)

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Everything I am going to write in this post will be based on the premise "Sailing could be improved by a stronger Cordorian naval presence", so if you disagree with that I would love to hear why. It's always possible I am missing something. But essentially the main thing I think that is holding the navy back is that its reliant on one ship that's player owned to be represented. It's just not reasonable to expect one person to play enough to be bad at running something that should be much bigger than it is, let alone the impossible feat of actually being good at it.

Now, I could probably stop there, and have most people that engage in sailing nodding along in agreement. But they would all have their own reasons for the why and solutions to fix it, which is the goal of this thread, to try and narrow those two things down. And I think for the why, we can examine what works with the easiest place to get into sailing, and Sencliff. Specifically, the pirate only rentals.

These two boats are generally always available due to restriction, and even if they aren't its usually easy to figure out who's out on them and send a speedy (often thanks to an ic note left on the dock) and hope for a summoner on board. So even if I am part of the crew who's captain owns the pirate "flagship" I can always get out sailing with both potential recruits and with randoms who just want to get out and sail, which is what keeps sailing steady on the cliff.

Now, of course I have an idea for an easy fix. I don't believe you can call something a problem if you don't have a potential solution. But again, this thread is about getting feedback to try and get us to the best idea.

Thoughts?

[Xarge VI]

Some weaker ships would be good I think because it can be a chore to get the crew together for a flagship when you want to sail. You could take a civilian ship but if you want to roleplay as navy it's not an ideal option. It would allow navy only operations more easily where you don't need draft aid from random citizens or put city leaders in combat.

Back when I played a Cordor navy admiral I did figure out a neat way to get around being navy admiral with only one ship.

Essentially all the other ships were open ended roleplay. Mentions in roleplay, memorials for fallen mariners and pensions for their families, paperwork etc. But they played an important part in roleplay- in diplomacy and political plotting.

Also. My character was the Admiral, not a captain. She was not combat oriented and viewed herself above taking part in the actual combat below her and an unnecessary risk. (Rather she just conducted experiments in the brig on captive pirates)

Instead once she had enough mariners in the navy she started appointing captains. I tried to get them from as varied timezone range as possible. Also I think its worth mention, that during her reign there were very little people outside the navy invited aboard (unless the city leaders arm wrestled her to allow them along)

It was because I think faction should be inclusive but also exclusive. Inclusive in roleplay and in recruitment opportunities, but if the faction (especially nation military faction) is too inclusive out of convenience it eats away at the integrity of what is being portrayed.

= What are the archetype ideas of a navy: Uniforms, discipline, strictness, authority etc.

If you have a ship with a couple of people from the navy and rest are random adventurers chatting about love affairs, jokes, etc. It no longer feels like a navy ship. There is of course space for those in Navy roleplay as well but it is more secretive.

Contrast creates a thing. And if there is no contrast between a navy and private ship it makes both archetypes fade.

So I end in contradiction: Exclusivity can create inclusive roleplay. And that's how the navy is saved.

[Chaoshawk]

If any settlement should get ships it would be Guldorand since it won the conflict and has been framed as the more notable naval power.

If more ships were added why lock it behind new mechanics instead of by citizenship like the new updates for shops? More ships can be added that are tagged to not let pirates use it as well to alleviate the imbalance at sea.

[Svrtr]

I hold no chip in this thread really as I am not an area design person, but that said...

I feel the framing of this is wrong. The emphasis on Cordor poisons the chalice, when the same argument could be made for any settlement and many non settlement locales. Especially Andunor given it has "3 settlements" with its districts but one main boat (I do not play an underdarker for reference) or even Bendir dale who is a settlement that doesn't even have a boat.

More boats is a topic that rears its ugly head semi-frequently, but given the context I will say this as a fellow player, I think you'll be better availed to not frame it in the context of "Cordor deserves more ships" and instead "Should settlements have more than just a flag ship to help facilitate naval RP", especially given that one could already have a guard own the ship and then said guard selectively gives out keys to whomever they trust.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I hold no chip in this thread really as I am not an area design person, but that said...

I feel the framing of this is wrong. The emphasis on Cordor poisons the chalice, when the same argument could be made for any settlement and many non settlement locales. Especially Andunor given it has "3 settlements" with its districts but one main boat (I do not play an underdarker for reference) or even Bendir dale who is a settlement that doesn't even have a boat.

More boats is a topic that rears its ugly head semi-frequently, but given the context I will say this as a fellow player, I think you'll be better availed to not frame it in the context of "Cordor deserves more ships" and instead "Should settlements have more than just a flag ship to help facilitate naval RP", especially given that one could already have a guard own the ship and then said guard selectively gives out keys to whomever they trust.

This all may be correct, and maybe I'm out of touch some on what's been going on, but I was thinking asking for every settlement would be too much to start. Since "cordor rules the seas" is an arelith meme, I thought that was the best place to start. I didn't even know there was a war that Guldorand won and therefore became the dominate navy in arelith lore though, that must have happened while i wasn't playing.

[Aeryeris]

Having dealt with settlement flagship sailing both as the person running the navy, and later as the settlement leader appointing people to run the navy my two cents are:

Settlement / Government owned ships are frustrating to deal with, and everything would be better if the lease was moved to a public spot, but kept on instant buy (no bidding system).

Add to that the mechanical and rule requirement to regularly sail ships, and the fact that there are more large ships than the pool of sailors can reasonably support, you end up with the same core group of sailors rotating between 2-3 ships to keep them active. I have seen so many Captains of the bigger ships go "why bother" and consolidate with other navies or quit outright.

I believe the way sailing score works for ships is fundamentally flawed and makes running sailing factions for bigger ships needlessly involved and stressful. I have outlined my thoughts on this in previous threads and won't be repeating them in detail here. But as someone who used to love sailing: Dealing with the faction leading aspect of big ships has outright killed my desire to deal with the sailing system entirely.

[Aellowyn]

I believe those that lead should definitely be involved in the combat, especially if they're navy.

Another small ship at Crow's would be nice for those that want to avoid going to cities for ships, but I think additional smaller ships in Cordor would leave the flagship and the Navy in the same state.

Being a leader of a faction or group is work. Some of the issues I've run into with the flagship is, RP culture. The person owning the ship should be encouraged to enlist more individuals and delegate sailing, so they themselves don't have to micromanage a crew and be on every day. When someone owns the flagship, they are owning a flagship for the City, not only friends and personal use.

My own recommendations:

Let the Guard onto the ship!

Be inclusive and if exclusivity is needed, then Cordorian citizen's only. Even then, I'd argue against that.

Encourage more recruitment of Navy personnel, including non-sail skilled. Advertise. Grant access to people and let them bring people they trust aboard.

And as serious as a Navy is, we are recruiting from a pool of people playing a game, playing at Navy; the pool for your supply might be choked too much if you're looking for only those that do serious RP, seriously, or fit a too rigid mold.

I have seen it repeatedly when a player starts RPing with a group they've never hung out with before, realize they really enjoy the RP they ran into, but it's just not the right fit for their character for one reason or another; only to later adjust their concept or even make a new character and come back. Repeat customers~

I know for a fact there are plenty of Cordorian citizens who would love to sail, but are forced to take rentals in Guldorand or Crow's Nest, because the flagship is closed to them. Groups of over ten that would happily get on the flagship and defend a noodle armed Captain or Admiral that only sings sailing songs and never gets their hands dirty. All potential Navy recruits.

Especially, host events! This goes back to my comment about repeat customers and advertise.

While some could argue "Events on a Navy ship, oh my_!" This draws attention and allows people who would otherwise not be interested in the Navy, or otherwise get a chance to be involved, to experience RP with different individuals, see what you have to offer and perhaps realize they want to be a part of something they didn't know they wanted to be a part of.

Even something as frivolous a ball, or recruitment events with the ship docked in port. Recruit, advertise. Once people see that a group/faction is welcoming and inclusive, people show up. Don't forget to advertise!

All of this can increase the pool of people to pull from when needing to find people to sail the flagship.

[chris a gogo]

I personally don't like the system and I'm really unclear where it fits into the PvP rules, as I aided killing a group one day only to be sunk by the same group the next with the only RP being a character that I helped kill shouting surrender and sinking the ship, so is sailing a work around of the 48 hour rule?

Also it was the dullest PvP encounter I've ever had and I've been killed with zero role play before now, but I got the impression from those that owned the ship I was on, that if you don't have the best ship it's pointless trying to fight.
Which would make adding more weak ships kind of pointless.

Or is that not the case?

[Kythana]

I believe the way sailing score works for ships is fundamentally flawed and makes running sailing factions for bigger ships needlessly involved and stressful. I have outlined my thoughts on this in previous threads and won't be repeating them in detail here. But as someone who used to love sailing: Dealing with the faction leading aspect of big ships has outright killed my desire to deal with the sailing system entirely.

100% agreed. The turnover from the sail system is comical. Going from joining a crew, and then slowly having people quit over time, and having to constantly recruit sail viable builds completely killed the captain's interest in my case. Nothing feels worse than just being unable to do the content because you can't even crew a ship.

Personally, I think the sail system needs to be fixed. Gating such a huge amount of content around one specific skill, with certain builds being needed to achieve it at the most optimal level is rather silly. Everyone should be able to be a good sailor in time, given that they sail.

[Rei_Jin]

Step 1: Make all "Flagships" Temporary Lease, and only leaseable from within the appropriate Settlement Building, therefore only accessible to those who are supposed to have access (or who can sneak/break in), so that they do not have to be "owned" nor do they decay if not used, nor do they need to be re-upgraded every time there is a change in settlement leadership or in oversight of the flagship. For Sencliff, this means that the "Lost Ark" Flagship would no longer be a long lease ship, and would only be hireable by Dread Pirates from within the Sencliff Cove. For Andunor, the Dreadnought would only be leaseable from within the Dreadnought Bunkhouse, which would only be accessible by those with quarter access internally, or those within the District Leadership Faction that has control of the relevant district.

Step 2: Reduce the crewing requirements for all ships by 1, to a minimum of 1 (Penny Rose, you still need at least one person with Sail ranks to sail well!)

Step 3: Reduce all non-Flagships to being only at most 3 crew required, and therefore unable to use Bombards, as well as having easier crewing requirements

Step 4: When using a Ship Lens, said ship that is moved by a Ship Lens cannot leave the quadrant/port it has arrived in for 15 RL minutes (I include Quadrant because if one uses a Ship Lens to go to Rayne's Landing, but the Lighthouse is not lit, then they arrive in the Quadrant but cannot dock)

Step 5: When using the Shipwright to repair, said ship that is repaired cannot leave the port it was repaired in for 15 RL minutes.

---

These changes would mean that (a) all ships with weaponry would be easier to crew, (b) Flagships would be far less of a burden, (c) Flagships would be more of a threat to those who oppose that settlement unless on their own Flagship, (d) Flagships could not just be used as trophy pieces by any individuals who want to unreasonably exclude others from using them or keep them for just themselves and their buddies, (e) Ship Lenses would be for escaping combat, not just repairing in port to come out firing again, (f) Folks cannot just fight off Sencliff, then duck into port to repair and come out again.

[Dreams]

The skill investments required to do anything are too large. This usually cuts out any non-dedicated sailor.

Also, ship PvP is anti-RP in the way the mechanics and rules have been developed. Players are incentivised not to roleplay. There’s nothing at all interactive about it and you could be sunk by the time you come back from a toilet break.

It also sucks that this entire system has a 100% exclusive tier of loot that is entirely unavailable to characters that don’t sail or priced at ridiculous amounts to fill stores with junk that will never sell because it’s only interesting to the people who would use it at sea anyway.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Well, there are plenty of threads that discuss the rest of this stuff you guys are bringing up that you could easily necro...But since it was brought up here, I will give my two cents on the three big ones again.

1) The number of people needed to crew ships is probably too low by one, not too big. The easier you make it for sailing groups to become insular, the more its guaranteed that they will. Since ships are a finite resource, that means that anyone left out of the musical chairs is done for as a sailing concept. As it stands now, it's already happening with the smaller ships. By requiring people to not only recruit but keep recruiting you guarantee that anyone who wants to become part of a sailing crew will have a shot.

2) I'm once again on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to the skill investment being too high, just because I would rather its higher to the point of being nigh impossible to max it out. The idea that you can't engage with sail content without a perfect score is so ridiculously false, its actually humorous. I was out on a ship that was a 3 manner with about six people the other night, but only two of us were actual sailors with a level 30 bard that wasn't a sailor at all, just had some gear. Our sail score was at best 61 I think as a result, and the only thing we avoided was attacking a 4 mast ghost ship. It essentially amounted to not doing castle mourne because you don't have a good party for it.

3) While there can certainly be a conversation about the rules of engagement, to try and make it the same as regular pvp rules is not going to work. And you know what? It doesn't need to. You get into pvp on land as a weaker group, you are dead or captured. You get into pvp at sea against a more powerful ship, and you can easily lens out. The Arelith pvp rules make everyone face off like two samurais in the night for the sake of fairness, but ships don't need that level of fair.

---

[D4wN]

I’ll just put it out there for a hot moment that this has nothing to do with: “Ship leaders need to be more inclusive!”

There’s a ton of assumptions being made throughout this thread that are blatantly wrong. There has been a lot of effort put into publicly advertising sails, getting the guard involved and even trying to host events.

People forget timezones are a thing and that people do have real lives. Just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

This is more just a general request, but can we please be kinder to faction/settlement/district leaders and stop always assuming they’re not “doing their job”?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I just want to also put this out there that I don't think Dawn is talking about me. I just wanted to be safe since its right after a really long post that most people won't read in full (or at all) and I don't want people getting the wrong idea!

[Wethrinea]

I think settlements would benefit from having a mid-tier class ship in addition to their flagship. Getting enough crew for the flagships is difficult, while having a brigantine or similar would make it easier to maintain official presence on the seas. After all, in real life navies, you do not use Carrier groups for shore or near-water patrol.

Also, a dream of mine would be to see settlements issue letters of marque to private groups of sailors. Proxy wars between the major powers should be a thing, and the Waterdeep/Amn war was brilliant in that regard.

[LivelyParticle]

I just want to also put this out there that I don't think Dawn is talking about me. I just wanted to be safe since its right after a really long post that most people won't read in full (or at all) and I don't want people getting the wrong idea!

Hmmm. I don't know. These comments lean heavily towards 'owner of the Leviathan isn't doing enough to own the ship' - or give that impression to me.

First thought: The owner of the Leviathan should present more opportunities for potential sailors.

Second thought Well, I will just bide my time until someone else takes over the leviathan,

This aside, as the current owner of the Sea Leopard (4 man brigantine, probably only one of the few true privateer ships), I'll admit that recruiting and running a crew is a ton of work and at times really frustrating. I have 3 repeating scheduled sails in the week, I've advertised a ton (even made signs all around the island to advertise who the other ships and crews are, which quickly got outdated), and I still struggle for people to show up for sails, despite having a huge pool of people who are aware and part of the faction in one way or another.

I'm going to put that down to RL/summer starting, but I'll admit I'm also a bit disheartened at the impression I'm getting from other sail crews who don't seem willing or even interested in RP with us. As an example: I even saw a Captain of another ship on the docks of Guldorand and greeted them to be told 'I'll speak to you when I have something to say' - or be outright ignored/dismissed, which is OOCly a bit sad, but - maybe reflects more on them than me.

I see people asking for more ships all the time, everyone wants to be a Captain of their own ship, but I don't think anyone actually realises how hard that is, or even the possibilities that are out there presently that aren't even being taken advantage of. (Frankly, I'd kill to have someone else to Captain the ship for me when I'm not around, given enough RP to lead up to that.)

[-XXX-]

Step 1: Make all "Flagships" Temporary Lease, and only leaseable from within the appropriate Settlement Building, therefore only accessible to those who are supposed to have access (or who can sneak/break in), so that they do not have to be "owned" nor do they decay if not used, nor do they need to be re-upgraded every time there is a change in settlement leadership or in oversight of the flagship.

This cannot be emphasized enough IMO.

Sailing is by nature a very organic and snowbally affair. As a rule of the thumb, nobody wants to just go out sailing, but the moment somebody does (even on their own at ridiculously low crew sail score), ppl show up and it doesn't take long before a dozen people are loitering on the deck.

This all tends to happen very organically, so asking a single ship owner to make that happen by design just doesn't work because all of sudden they are put in a spot where they have an OBLIGATION to create a faction and recruit people, but at the same time not many people can avoid the pitfalls of making such faction all about their character and/or thematically exclusive, making the entire affair somewhat unappealing to all but a select few.

[Algol]

It feels like there is too much of a hurdle/ investment needed if you want to sail "competitively"?

1) You need a good boat
2) You need several people invested in a skill deeply
3) You need a carpenter
4) You need your ship stocked with ammunition and logs

Just thinking about it is exhausting, to be honest just getting together a good crew can take hours, most people don't have that kind of time so I doubt you'll be sailing with a decent crew for too long untill someone needs to log off.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I just want to also put this out there that I don't think Dawn is talking about me. I just wanted to be safe since its right after a really long post that most people won't read in full (or at all) and I don't want people getting the wrong idea!

Hmmm. I don't know. These comments lean heavily towards 'owner of the Leviathan isn't doing enough to own the ship' - or give that impression to me.

First thought: The owner of the Leviathan should present more opportunities for potential sailors.

Second thought Well, I will just bide my time until someone else takes over the leviathan,

This aside, as the current owner of the Sea Leopard (4 man brigantine, probably only one of the few true privateer ships), I'll admit that recruiting and running a crew is a ton of work and at times really frustrating. I have 3 repeating scheduled sails in the week, I've advertised a ton (even made signs all around the island to advertise who the other ships and crews are, which quickly got outdated), and I still struggle for people to show up for sails, despite having a huge pool of people who are aware and part of the faction in one way or another.

I'm going to put that down to RL/summer starting, but I'll admit I'm also a bit disheartened at the impression I'm getting from other sail crews who don't seem willing or even interested in RP with us. As an example: I even saw a Captain of another ship on the docks of Guldorand and greeted them to be told 'I'll speak to you when I have something to say' - or be outright ignored/dismissed, which is OOCly a bit sad, but - maybe reflects more on them than me.

I see people asking for more ships all the time, everyone wants to be a Captain of their own ship, but I don't think anyone actually realises how hard that is, or even the possibilities that are out there presently that aren't even being taken advantage of. (Frankly, I'd kill to have someone else to Captain the ship for me when I'm not around, given enough RP to lead up to that.)

You should really read the entire paragraph instead of cherry picking. This is the actual quote:

First thought: The owner of the Leviathan should present more opportunities for potential sailors. This is a trap a lot of us fall into, and I was no different with my initial reaction. And while there is certainly room for debate on players who own ships but never use them, I think someone who gets out every week at the same time is a perfectly reasonable level of play. It's just a game after all. But that epiphany doesn't solve my issue.

As far as biding my time, what else would you have me do if the time they sail doesn't work for me lol? This is why, as much as I respect you as a player @Dawn, your post was very poorly timed and absolutely unnecessary. It created the illusion of insults being tossed around willy nilly when in fact this was a decent discussion that was relatively fair to everyone involved before you decided to virtue post.

[D4wN]

I said throughout the thread and it wasn’t only a point of feedback to your post. Yours wasn’t the only one. I recommend if you do wish to provide generic feedback that you don’t call out individuals or specific settlements and keep it generic. I feel sometimes these forums and particular threads devolve into specifically aimed criticism to a player or group of players. This isn’t the only thread that seems to do that.

Complaints about players or player groups should go to DMs. Where I think public posts on the forums should try and remain generic and unbiased.

Just my two cents.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I said throughout the thread and it wasn’t only a point of feedback to your post. Yours wasn’t the only one. I recommend if you do wish to provide generic feedback that you don’t call out individuals or specific settlements and keep it generic. I feel sometimes these forums and particular threads devolve into specifically aimed criticism to a player or group of players. This isn’t the only thread that seems to do that.

Complaints about players or player groups should go to DMs. Where I think public posts on the forums should try and remain generic and unbiased.

Just my two cents.

But here's the thing. I wasn't calling anyone out. I was laying out my thought process on how I got to my initial post which included my experience as a would-be sailor in Cordor. I didn't name anyone, and I even made a point of saying in multiple locations they were both willing to take me out and go out every week since it wasn't hard to figure out who I meant.

I really didn't want to make it personal toward anyone and took painstaking efforts to make sure it read that way (assuming you actually read it). So much so that I feel like the only way you can read it as me saying anyone is doing a bad job is if deep down inside you have questions yourself and can't see my words in any other way.

Ultimately, my plan or a similar one will make life easier for someone who runs a settlement navy, since it will essentially run itself. And they will never have to worry about if they are leaving anyone out, or not getting out enough. It just wouldn't be an issue. How that's not a giant win for everyone is beyond me, but if you have reasons why you think it isn't I'm excited to hear them. But if you just want to say poor this person or that, and defend them from imaginary attacks, the cycle will just continue until someone more convincing comes along with the same logic and finally gets it right.

[D4wN]

You misunderstand. I didn’t say I disagree that things need to be fixed. I know they do and I do like some of the ideas posted in this thread. I absolutely agree things need to be made easier and less obstructive to RP. I love the sailing system, but I definitely think there can be improvements to it.

I have no doubt you didn’t mean it to be personal, it’s just how it read. Which is why I suggested to keep specific players or player groups out of generic system feedback. But happy to chat about it more over Discord. Miscommunications happen easily through things like this.

[Aeryeris]

I said throughout the thread and it wasn’t only a point of feedback to your post. Yours wasn’t the only one. I recommend if you do wish to provide generic feedback that you don’t call out individuals or specific settlements and keep it generic. I feel sometimes these forums and particular threads devolve into specifically aimed criticism to a player or group of players. This isn’t the only thread that seems to do that.

Complaints about players or player groups should go to DMs. Where I think public posts on the forums should try and remain generic and unbiased.

Just my two cents.

But here's the thing. I wasn't calling anyone out. I was laying out my thought process on how I got to my initial post which included my experience as a would-be sailor in Cordor. I didn't name anyone, and I even made a point of saying in multiple locations they were both willing to take me out and go out every week since it wasn't hard to figure out who I meant.

I really didn't want to make it personal toward anyone and took painstaking efforts to make sure it read that way (assuming you actually read it). So much so that I feel like the only way you can read it as me saying anyone is doing a bad job is if deep down inside you have questions yourself and can't see my words in any other way.

Ultimately, my plan or a similar one will make life easier for someone who runs a settlement navy, since it will essentially run itself. And they will never have to worry about if they are leaving anyone out, or not getting out enough. It just wouldn't be an issue. How that's not a giant win for everyone is beyond me, but if you have reasons why you think it isn't I'm excited to hear them. But if you just want to say poor this person or that, and defend them from imaginary attacks, the cycle will just continue until someone more convincing comes along with the same logic and finally gets it right.

You specify a problem, while narrowing down where you encountered this problem to the point people know the characters involved. Then in a post a little further down you state you see lack of inclusivity as the primary problem, saying you feel that the sailing requirements are currently too low and increasing them would prevent factions from excluding people. It is obviously perceived as an attack on the people running these factions, and narrowed down to one person in particular.

You can say it's "not meant that way" to infinity, but it doesn't change what is written and what logical conclusions people will make based on it.

It also does not help that this very topic has been debated in previous threads plenty of times, and the only difference this thread brings is that it specifically mentions the Cordor flagship and its current owner, rather than keeping the discussion on a more generic and higher level.

Yes, sailing has issues in the area of faction management and accessibility. These issues are systemic to the current design as has been brought up by several people who have a lot of experience dealing with said design. Proposed solutions are plentiful and have been for years, but sailing development is currently paused I believe so it's not likely to see much change in the near term.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I said throughout the thread and it wasn’t only a point of feedback to your post. Yours wasn’t the only one. I recommend if you do wish to provide generic feedback that you don’t call out individuals or specific settlements and keep it generic. I feel sometimes these forums and particular threads devolve into specifically aimed criticism to a player or group of players. This isn’t the only thread that seems to do that.

Complaints about players or player groups should go to DMs. Where I think public posts on the forums should try and remain generic and unbiased.

Just my two cents.

But here's the thing. I wasn't calling anyone out. I was laying out my thought process on how I got to my initial post which included my experience as a would-be sailor in Cordor. I didn't name anyone, and I even made a point of saying in multiple locations they were both willing to take me out and go out every week since it wasn't hard to figure out who I meant.

I really didn't want to make it personal toward anyone and took painstaking efforts to make sure it read that way (assuming you actually read it). So much so that I feel like the only way you can read it as me saying anyone is doing a bad job is if deep down inside you have questions yourself and can't see my words in any other way.

Ultimately, my plan or a similar one will make life easier for someone who runs a settlement navy, since it will essentially run itself. And they will never have to worry about if they are leaving anyone out, or not getting out enough. It just wouldn't be an issue. How that's not a giant win for everyone is beyond me, but if you have reasons why you think it isn't I'm excited to hear them. But if you just want to say poor this person or that, and defend them from imaginary attacks, the cycle will just continue until someone more convincing comes along with the same logic and finally gets it right.

You specify a problem, while narrowing down where you encountered this problem to the point people know the characters involved. Then in a post a little further down you state you see lack of inclusivity as the primary problem, saying you feel that the sailing requirements are currently too low and increasing them would prevent factions from excluding people. It is obviously perceived as an attack on the people running these factions, and narrowed down to one person in particular.

You can say it's "not meant that way" to infinity, but it doesn't change what is written and what logical conclusions people will make based on it.

It also does not help that this very topic has been debated in previous threads plenty of times, and the only difference this thread brings is that it specifically mentions the Cordor flagship and its current owner, rather than keeping the discussion on a more generic and higher level.

Yes, sailing has issues in the area of faction management and accessibility. These issues are systemic to the current design as has been brought up by several people who have a lot of experience dealing with said design. Proposed solutions are plentiful and have been for years, but sailing development is currently paused I believe so it's not likely to see much change in the near term.

Actually, I kept it plenty generic, but folks just started getting into their sail gripe stance. I then made a post that involved my experience with the intention of trying to get it back on track. I still don't believe that anyone can logically find insults unless they are already under the assumption that they are insults, and if saying things like "They were willing to take me sailing" and "The amount of time they get out is perfectly fine since its consistent" isn't enough to convince you of that, maybe there is something wrong with how you perceive the logical way to read it is. All that being said, obviously my attempt to get the thread back on track was a failure though, which is a big fat thwpt.

And I don't think anyone has ever brought up sail in the context of expanding the navy to look more like sencliff in its own way, and I read the sail threads even when I'm not playing, but feel free to link one if I missed it. I do agree sail in general is a topic that's been beaten to death though, which is again why I tried to shift the conversation back away from the usual stuff.

So, I'm just going to finish with an official proclamation:

I, Babylon/Bruno/Asshat, do solemnly swear on everything that is unholy about Arelith that I have no ill will toward the current owner of the Leviathan. I honestly don't know them well enough to have a real opinion on them one way or another, but they seemed nice to me with the little interaction I had with them. They did everything one can reasonably expect one to do as the owner of a ship, presenting a time to go sailing and going out regularly on that day and time. It just didn't work because of timezones, which got me thinking about the issues with sailing, which in turn lead to this thread.

There we are. Ten bucks says there's still people who won't believe me because of the way I said timezones or something, but it's really important to me that at least the reasonable folk know that this is about what's best for the server, not some petty grudge. Arelith has enough of that, it doesn't need me adding more lol.

[Aellowyn]

Having been part of a flagship crew, private ship, observing people who were very active with sailing and factions, it's a lot of work resting on the shoulder of the owner/leader and not everyone wants to lead or has what it takes for that amount of effort. It can be like herding cats while handling a high turnover rate.

Though every ship leader is different depending on what they want, actively including people by publicly advertising recruitment, getting the guard involved, hosting events, is a near constant effort. Even, delegating work to others in different timezones to help with events and recruitment.

Step 1: Make all "Flagships" Temporary Lease, and only leaseable from within the appropriate Settlement Building, therefore only accessible to those who are supposed to have access (or who can sneak/break in), so that they do not have to be "owned" nor do they decay if not used, nor do they need to be re-upgraded every time there is a change in settlement leadership or in oversight of the flagship.

I could see the benefit of this for the flagship, removing the heavy RP weight the mechanics sets on the shoulders of the leader. Maybe even turning the Navy recruitment into something similar to the city Guard.