Save the Nave (y)

[LichBait]

Back in the day the Merchant Navy faction that ran the Guldorand Flagship had probably 20+ sail builds to pull from across the Time Zone spectrum. It was a highly inclusive faction that even sailed with other navies and took near all walks of life. Despite this, getting just 6 people with a good enough sail score to do end game content and have a fighting chance against adversaries was a headache, especially with how swiftly ships tend to decay. (You need a minimum sail score of 80 on a ship, IMO to even have a fighting chance at most interesting/engaging content. You can have 20 people on board that ship, but if the sail score isn't 80 you're getting easily sunk by PvE w/o having to invest TONS of repair resources. This doesn't even touch the PvP aspect).

Think about scheduling a meeting with a large faction. This is that headache on steroids especially considering the constant stream of supplies you need to ensure are on board before heading out. (Repair, ammo, weapons, bombs, ect.) It was a thing that my character personally checked daily on the ship. We let other people bring the ship out too even w/o the leadership, but at times you come in from a really long voyage and just need to log off. So you then have to coordinate gathering all the items you need for a voyage to even do the sail PvE that's not the land dungeons b/c it was all used in the last voyage. This is especially true for ships that don't have hefty storage like the Guldorand Galleon does.

I don't think many ship owners have an issue with a lack of inclusivity, especially settlement ships. Not being inclusive is pretty much a death knell to your sailing of a larger vessel. It's just not feasible to run a sailing faction for an extended period of time without burnout due to:

A) Excessive Character Turnover
B) Managing Faction Time Zones
C) Lots of supplies logistics that are required for competency
D) Having to do this, at minimum, 3 times a week to keep the ship from going into a disrepair mode.

That's just my two cents. I do think settlements could do with a 3 man ship rental that's settlement citizen locked to help out and not pull from the non-settlement rentals when you just can't man the flagship. Additionally I think the decay timer needs slightly extended. Ultimately leading any faction is work and rewarding, but the pacing at which you need to run a large ship paired with the prerequisites to do it efficiently are a little odds with each other. I think to have a competent ship you need to put in the effort to RP and network, but ultimately I do think the bar for sailing competently is a little too high.

[Xarge VI]

I believe those that lead should definitely be involved in the combat, especially if they're navy.

Stuff.

Well it depends on what kind of admiral you are portraying. I was portraying a snotty-know-it-all-better-than-everyone-nerd-who-eventually-got-caught-putting-brain-chips-in-people-and-embezzling-money-from-the-city-to-fund-an-underwater-science-lair-in-the-underdark type of admiral.

Lol If I remember correctly it was your character who strongarmed or was involved in strongarming my snotty admiral into arranging a ball or some kind of fancy celebration aboard Leviathan.

I am not really criticizing anyone. Rather I had a pretty nice navy going on with quite a few mariners in it. And since the title was "Save the navy" I am just trying to convey what I think I did right back then I don't have much idea what is going on with navies these days It's more about what feelings I get from majority of factions these days.

Of course the ship system was not quite what it is now, but in my opinion mechanical side is not as important as the story.

If the story has enough gravity everything else falls into place. But the story requires boundaries to feel alive- everyone shouldn't be everything.

[-XXX-]

Crew comes first.
They then generally use whichever ship's available.

The navy process is all backwards because it proposes building a crew around a single ship.
...and that's before we take into account 4 navies and 5 privateer ships competing over a rather limited pool of sailors, all while each introducing their own brand of political baggage into the mix.

There's simply too many ships for that to work - too many alternatives to choose from for "follow mah rules, obey my command, abide my law" to be met with anything but "OK, enjoy scrubbing barnackles off your flagship in the local waters while we take this 3-man galley to roflstomp the entirety of edgewaters in the meantime"

On the other hand the Dreadnought sails ...alot. This is the only instance I can think of where the navy model actually seems to work, but only because there's a shortage of UD ships to choose from, forcing players to figure things out instead.

[Cnaym]

I'd honestly not describe this as a complicated issue at all seeing how Guldorand has run its navy for a while and how well it worked compared to the other settlements.

They set up a recruitment poster with people who can recruit and sail the ship, bonus points if those are from different timezones. They had like 4 captains on the poster at the same time, Tempest went out daily like that.

In a quick summary of my current interaction with the Cordor navy: I saw the advert, I spoke to the people next to the poster, I got a time at which they sailed so I was online around that and put me name on the bord -> Then got nothing when the flagship went out. Which is funny because I shippered around with randos at the time and went "Welp, they probably got enough sailors then."

[Shadowy Reality]

I have been one of the people actively avoiding sailing ever since its inception and I can try to explain why.

Making a pirate is a bit daunting, because you are tackling a new system (sailing) and you also have a more limited group of people to interact with, outside of Sencliffe you will always be seen as downright enemy or at very best barely tolerated.

On top of that it always felt weird to me to dedicate a character to a mechanic that isn't always available.
What I mean by this is that if I am in the Cordor Navy, I login and... I have to wait. Either for someone with authority to actually sail the ship, or for enough people so I can properly man the ship. This is very discouraging as sometimes I finish work and have only 1-2 hours to spend before I have to do something else, I don't want to spend 1h waiting for people to gather to maybe go sail, I want to sail now. Which would leave me with the rentals, which probably can't tackle most sea encounters and could also already be rented.

I think the only way to make it more accessible for everyone is:

1. to reduce the sailing skill requirements, make it like many other skills where the DC is based on your level. If I am investing full skills into Sail, and have a few bonus from gear or stats that should be enough;
2. Reduce the people number requirements, allow me to just login and go if there is no one else available, or just another newbie sailor;

[-XXX-]

On top of that it always felt weird to me to dedicate a character to a mechanic that isn't always available.
What I mean by this is that if I am in the Cordor Navy, I login and... I have to wait. Either for someone with authority to actually sail the ship, or for enough people so I can properly man the ship. This is very discouraging as sometimes I finish work and have only 1-2 hours to spend before I have to do something else, I don't want to spend 1h waiting for people to gather to maybe go sail, I want to sail now. Which would leave me with the rentals, which probably can't tackle most sea encounters and could also already be rented.

That sounds more like an IC problem. One does not need a perfect crew sail score to set sail unless they aim to engage in ship PvP or edgewater PvE.

Saying that one can't sail unless the ship is fully crewed at 100 sail is like never leaving town without a retinue of maxed out characters - same way the actual gameplay experience often revolves around risk taking under less than ideal circumstances, the average sailing experience revolves around running a skeleton crew.

Now, that being said and since we're talking Cordor navy here - the Leviathan is a flagship and as such can easily be taken into local waters by a single person for casual PvE, loot and ammo gathering - the NPC ships cannot pierce the flagship's DR and there's 0(!) risk of PvP, so the crew sail score doesn't really matter there.
Furthermore, last time I checked the Leviathan had a unique perk that allowed people to board it from the crew house in Cordor.
So why not allow members of the navy to take the ship into local waters whenever they want to? I guarantee you that these casual outings would snowball into full-fledged sails on regular basis and the ship would almost never deteriorate.

[D4wN]

Furthermore, last time I checked the Leviathan had a unique perk that allowed people to board it from the crew house in Cordor.
So why not allow members of the navy to take the ship into local waters whenever they want to? I guarantee you that these casual outings would snowball into full-fledged sails on regular basis and the ship would almost never deteriorate.

We have always done this. As soon as you pass recruit status you get given full access to board the ship from the custom's house. I'm not sure if that is being done rn as I'm not heavily involved in sailing atm. But if not, that's absolutely something we can change.

[TheDoctor]

I just want to also put this out there that I don't think Dawn is talking about me. I just wanted to be safe since its right after a really long post that most people won't read in full (or at all) and I don't want people getting the wrong idea!

Hmmm. I don't know. These comments lean heavily towards 'owner of the Leviathan isn't doing enough to own the ship' - or give that impression to me.

First thought: The owner of the Leviathan should present more opportunities for potential sailors.

Second thought Well, I will just bide my time until someone else takes over the leviathan,

This aside, as the current owner of the Sea Leopard (4 man brigantine, probably only one of the few true privateer ships), I'll admit that recruiting and running a crew is a ton of work and at times really frustrating. I have 3 repeating scheduled sails in the week, I've advertised a ton (even made signs all around the island to advertise who the other ships and crews are, which quickly got outdated), and I still struggle for people to show up for sails, despite having a huge pool of people who are aware and part of the faction in one way or another.

I'm going to put that down to RL/summer starting, but I'll admit I'm also a bit disheartened at the impression I'm getting from other sail crews who don't seem willing or even interested in RP with us. As an example: I even saw a Captain of another ship on the docks of Guldorand and greeted them to be told 'I'll speak to you when I have something to say' - or be outright ignored/dismissed, which is OOCly a bit sad, but - maybe reflects more on them than me.

I see people asking for more ships all the time, everyone wants to be a Captain of their own ship, but I don't think anyone actually realises how hard that is, or even the possibilities that are out there presently that aren't even being taken advantage of. (Frankly, I'd kill to have someone else to Captain the ship for me when I'm not around, given enough RP to lead up to that.)

I dont know . To me it sounds like you are looking at the reasons for this being ooc when in fact its probally 99% IC. To say that its sad and its reflects on them more than you shows that disconnect. Seems to me that IC actions have had IC consequences.

[LivelyParticle]

I dont know . To me it sounds like you are looking at the reasons for this being ooc when in fact its probally 99% IC. To say that its sad and its reflects on them more than you shows that disconnect. Seems to me that IC actions have had IC consequences.

Shows how much you know I guess, considering I've had minimal IC experience with the person I was talking about, but maybe move this to PMs if you wanna continue the speculations as it's increasingly going off topic.

[RibsAndBrisket]

I see people asking for more ships all the time, everyone wants to be a Captain of their own ship, but I don't think anyone actually realises how hard that is, or even the possibilities that are out there presently that aren't even being taken advantage of. (Frankly, I'd kill to have someone else to Captain the ship for me when I'm not around, given enough RP to lead up to that.)

I often see ship captains complaining of how hard it is to assemble a dedicated crew and to keep them engaged. Everyone seems to assume from the get go that the problem is 'somewhere else'. Have you considered that the stories you are trying to build around your ship might not be as engaging for other players as you think they are? If its so difficult, why do ship captains hold on to their ships for months, if not years instead of moving on ? The fact that someone can imply they would still hold on to the ship but 'kill to have someone else to Captain' it is mind boggling to me and, in my opinion, one of the reason why its so difficult to find dedicated sailors.

Dedicated sailors want a ship and its virtually impossible to own one.

[LivelyParticle]

I often see ship captains complaining of how hard it is to assemble a dedicated crew and to keep them engaged. Everyone seems to assume from the get go that the problem is 'somewhere else'. Have you considered that the stories you are trying to build around your ship might not be as engaging for other players as you think they are?

That's an interesting take - I was pretty clear from the get-go what my own objective is/was and attracted a lot of folks. It just happens that people flake out or quit/disappear/cause drama I can't resolve ICly. Sailing IS hard. Sharing the responisbilities of owning the ship would be great, as it just turns out feeling like it's a second job most of the time.

If its so difficult, why do ship captains hold on to their ships for months, if not years instead of moving on ?

Speaking for myself: Because I'm not a quitter at the early toothing issues and I want to make a good go of it, while having other goals to pursue while still owning a ship? If dedicated sailors want to sail with me, I'm open to it, and look forward to the RP involved in such!

[Rubricae]

I often see ship captains complaining of how hard it is to assemble a dedicated crew and to keep them engaged. Everyone seems to assume from the get go that the problem is 'somewhere else'. Have you considered that the stories you are trying to build around your ship might not be as engaging for other players as you think they are?

That's an interesting take - I was pretty clear from the get-go what my own objective is/was and attracted a lot of folks. It just happens that people flake out or quit/disappear/cause drama I can't resolve ICly. Sailing IS hard. Sharing the responisbilities of owning the ship would be great, as it just turns out feeling like it's a second job most of the time.

If its so difficult, why do ship captains hold on to their ships for months, if not years instead of moving on ?

Speaking for myself: Because I'm not a quitter at the early toothing issues and I want to make a good go of it, while having other goals to pursue while still owning a ship? If dedicated sailors want to sail with me, I'm open to it, and look forward to the RP involved in such!

to piggyback off of the highlighted point, the entry into sailing is a very steep investment and requires a ludicrous amount of time. i think it's that investment that turns most people off or burns them out so fast. if anything, that is what should change alongside any additions to the amount of boats on server.

as for people holding onto leases forever - it's difficult to get ahold of a ship in the first place, so it's understandable people would rather be buried in them than let them go. which is another issues that stems from the very finite amount of them.

[RibsAndBrisket]

I often see ship captains complaining of how hard it is to assemble a dedicated crew and to keep them engaged. Everyone seems to assume from the get go that the problem is 'somewhere else'. Have you considered that the stories you are trying to build around your ship might not be as engaging for other players as you think they are?

That's an interesting take - I was pretty clear from the get-go what my own objective is/was and attracted a lot of folks. It just happens that people flake out or quit/disappear/cause drama I can't resolve ICly. Sailing IS hard. Sharing the responisbilities of owning the ship would be great, as it just turns out feeling like it's a second job most of the time.

If its so difficult, why do ship captains hold on to their ships for months, if not years instead of moving on ?

Speaking for myself: Because I'm not a quitter at the early toothing issues and I want to make a good go of it, while having other goals to pursue while still owning a ship? If dedicated sailors want to sail with me, I'm open to it, and look forward to the RP involved in such!

I think you have it backwards and I also think it explains your situation. 'If dedicated sailors want to sail with me, I'm open to it.' should be 'I'm actively working on a sailing-centric story that is inclusive and interesting to other players'.

I do not know what ship you sail or who you play. If the shoe fits and all that but my experience with most non-settlement captains is that they want to be inclusive, they feel they are being inclusive but they are not. Hence the 'I can't seem to crew my ship reliably.' If the story was amazing for everyone involved, why would people have trouble showing up?

If you make the story all about your toon and your ship, people will get bored of that real fast and that is what I have seen with so many ship's captain.

[Eyeliner]

I'd say two six-hour sail sessions a week should be adequate to be considered "active". Have you ever tried to plan two events a week and get people to show? If it's not a DM plot there's going to be a tremendous amount of flaking out no matter how awesome your story is. You have to be fair, the reality is this is a video game and players have real lives and short attention spans. (Speaking for myself if I had a sailor right now I could only commit to maybe one six-hour block every other week at best, sailing is just such a time consuming endeavor I prefer to do things where I can wrap up in two or three hours instead)

That's also 12 hours a week of activity, which means the ship would be dormant for another 156... Which is a good reason for the idea above that all ships should be tied to a faction or guildhouse or something and rented short term by members instead of having only one owner.

[Subtext]

I often see ship captains complaining of how hard it is to assemble a dedicated crew and to keep them engaged. Everyone seems to assume from the get go that the problem is 'somewhere else'. Have you considered that the stories you are trying to build around your ship might not be as engaging for other players as you think they are?

That's an interesting take - I was pretty clear from the get-go what my own objective is/was and attracted a lot of folks. It just happens that people flake out or quit/disappear/cause drama I can't resolve ICly. Sailing IS hard. Sharing the responisbilities of owning the ship would be great, as it just turns out feeling like it's a second job most of the time.

If its so difficult, why do ship captains hold on to their ships for months, if not years instead of moving on ?

Speaking for myself: Because I'm not a quitter at the early toothing issues and I want to make a good go of it, while having other goals to pursue while still owning a ship? If dedicated sailors want to sail with me, I'm open to it, and look forward to the RP involved in such!

I think you have it backwards and I also think it explains your situation. 'If dedicated sailors want to sail with me, I'm open to it.' should be 'I'm actively working on a sailing-centric story that is inclusive and interesting to other players'.

I do not know what ship you sail or who you play. If the shoe fits and all that but my experience with most non-settlement captains is that they want to be inclusive, they feel they are being inclusive but they are not. Hence the 'I can't seem to crew my ship reliably.' If the story was amazing for everyone involved, why would people have trouble showing up?

If you make the story all about your toon and your ship, people will get bored of that real fast and that is what I have seen with so many ship's captain.

It's a two-way road. Recruiting is one thing, actively working with a captain is another. If you want to sail with your dedicated crew, what's stopping you from reaching out? Or are you waiting to get plucked up by a captain in search for crew members?

I cannot speak for every non settlement ship owner but I haven't made the experience you describe however at all. Nor do I consider this to be the case for my own ship either. That is however, unless you view submitting to the rules and conditions a ship owner sets as unreasonable, I don't see what the problem is with following another captain.

Unless it is actually about owning a ship yourself and the potential "prestige" that comes with it? If you can't find any captain to your liking, maybe they aren't the problem after all...or maybe you should attempt to work with a settlement and run their navy if you do have a group of dedicated sailors.

In any case, one of the best things that can happen is a captain that even if they can't sail much in person for whatever reason, is actively allowing others to use their ship...at least rather than relying on the randomness of the bidding system. There were plenty of instances with ships barely being used at all while the captain held on to it for years. And that might be the worst possible outcome.

[RibsAndBrisket]

I cannot speak for every non settlement ship owner but I haven't made the experience you describe however at all. Nor do I consider this to be the case for my own ship either. That is however, unless you view submitting to the rules and conditions a ship owner sets as unreasonable, I don't see what the problem is with following another captain.

Unless it is actually about owning a ship yourself and the potential "prestige" that comes with it? If you can't find any captain to your liking, maybe they aren't the problem after all...or maybe you should attempt to work with a settlement and run their navy if you do have a group of dedicated sailors.

In any case, one of the best things that can happen is a captain that even if they can't sail much in person for whatever reason, is actively allowing others to use their ship...at least rather than relying on the randomness of the bidding system. There were plenty of instances with ships barely being used at all while the captain held on to it for years. And that might be the worst possible outcome.

I've been part of many crews and have absolutely no issue following another Captain. Its even ideal for me as I do not have the spare time to manage a faction.

What I am saying is the way the player orients their storytelling as a Captain has a direct impact on player enjoyment and player enjoyment is directly responsible for people sticking around.

I've seen people kicked off of 'private' crews for the most inane reasons. Usually coupled with OOC drama.

The bottom line is 'If you can't find anyone to play with you, the problem might be the way you execute your storytelling and if other players enjoy what you are trying to create or not'

[Ruzuke]

I have said this plenty of times. Finding people who want to sail is easy. People who want to play will if they don't have to pledge their loyalty and time to another PC they don't really care about.

There is a ton of gate keeping and push to sail with the right people, but having played both a pirate, UD, and non-pirate surface person finding people who wanted fun and RP has been great. Burnout on a video game is due to people not having fun and not wanting to log in. If a video game crew is burnt out it is because the game just is not fun anymore.

For me personally I would love if there were settlement specific ships, however as Crow's nest is a sailing community provide more ships there and the other non-settlement locations. The dicing bell an edge water is a great place for pirate maps, and resources. It is more fun to be able to obtain those without chasing for the one rental in Guldorand.

[Subtext]

I'd say two six-hour sail sessions a week should be adequate to be considered "active". Have you ever tried to plan two events a week and get people to show? If it's not a DM plot there's going to be a tremendous amount of flaking out no matter how awesome your story is. You have to be fair, the reality is this is a video game and players have real lives and short attention spans. (Speaking for myself if I had a sailor right now I could only commit to maybe one six-hour block every other week at best, sailing is just such a time consuming endeavor I prefer to do things where I can wrap up in two or three hours instead)

That's also 12 hours a week of activity, which means the ship would be dormant for another 156... Which is a good reason for the idea above that all ships should be tied to a faction or guildhouse or something and rented short term by members instead of having only one owner.

Six hour sail sessions twice a week? Goodness gracious. Six hours in one sitting is a lot and not exactly something you can do during the week.

But I do agree on the guildhouse notion and that's something I've been thinking about today for a bit. I think that would benefit independent ships especially but also settlement ships should see a big benefit of that. And let's be real, if a sailing crew doesn't meet the criteria for a damn guildhouse, I am not sure who does!

Though I think they should be structured a bit differently and employ different rules than regular guildhouses. Because - ship owners are expected to run a crew. Actively. Unless you have a big ooc friend group, that means reaching out to people ingame and actually building a faction from scratch. And not just a faction that does its own thing, one that is actively out there and doing stuff. You also have to worry about logistics, materials and storage on a regular basis. Unlike other factions you actually have a substantial storage requirement.
Even with a good crew, it is a big time sink and I am not sure anyone else in the community is under the same scrutiny. Except for settlement leaders but they have to worry more about getting reelected than yeeted off their place by a DM. Which - for the record - I think is a good thing. Captains should be under scrutiny and be...encouraged to retire if they cannot bring their ship out on the water.

Likewise, allowing other groups to sail one's ship takes a lot of trust. And all it takes is one person messing it up, stealing stuff or being otherwise toxic to really sour any arrangement and cause a crew to disintegrate. I do understand every captain who is hesitant on just handing anyone the keys who asks without properly vetting them. Which sometimes may fail on something as little as timezones.

While we cannot (and certainly shouldn't) take the IC effort of faction building off a ship captain, perhaps the logistics aspect can be made easier and ingame mechanics can encourage opening ships up to other crews.

So. Here's the suggestion. Fully understand that it would benefit myself as well (though that's not the reason why. I am actually doing well without but I don't consider my crew situation to be regular).

1) Add proper crew houses for every long term lease. The lease sign for the ship gets moved inside those crew houses and can be evicted by the owner of the guild house.

2) The crew house should contain the following:

• Small communal storage - 20 slot chest as well as space to store fixtures, aka artillery
• Regular storage with a separate quarter sign. Nothing huge, just enough that that the core crew can stash some valuables.
• De facto "Lockers" for the crew. Six to eight tiny locker rooms with their own quarter sign and a 10 slot box.
• Personal quarters for the guildhouse owner - again, separate quarter sign
• Definitely a pool to hang out in after a voyage. Or well. Something for visuals.

3) The quarter rules should be amended when it comes to crewhouses:

• Ownership of the ship placard, crew storage or locker rooms does not count against regular ownership of a quarter. You can have a regular quarter despite being on the lease for the ship or having a locker.
• It is not required to fill every "locker room". They are meant to be an amenity for sailors to not be forced to sacrifice too much inventory space.
• The guildhouse itself is of course subject to the same rules as other guildhouses.

I understand those are a lot of amenities and even more new quarter signs. But there is a good reason for it.
If I can grant access to a ship without having to grant access to my entire ammo stockpile too - or having to keep it in my inventory - I might find there to be less reasons to not let another crew have fun with my ship. Having different quarter signs allows for different layers of permissions and I think those would do an active sailing crew well.
And the locker rooms? People might feel more compelled to pick up sailing if they have a place to stash their stuff. Consider it an inventory space refund for active sailors. Hence it should be allowed to have such a room on top of regular quarters as well.
And if they aren't used? It shouldn't be a big deal, because...

...DMs should absolutely breathe down the neck of anyone just sitting on their ship. It shouldn't be the requirement to do several six hour sailing sessions per week in person. That's downright prohibitive for people with a job and family. But it should be a requirement to organize the use of the ship and if someone does that well, I don't see particularly much issue. The goal should be to allow as many people as possible to experience the content after all.

[-XXX-]

Ships just work better as short term lease rentals - when a crew assembles, they can take a readily available ship and then release it once they're done sailing, making it available for the next crew that wants to sail - super straightforward, less logistical issues, no trust drama, no envy gripe, no game turning into a second job just because somebody owns a ship nonsense.

Ideally all ships would function as rentals, but we do have enough of those, so technically there's no reason for not keeping privately owned ships too.
That being said, most long lease ships seem to languish, because they depend on clearly defined "joiners" which a lot of players refuse to be out of principle (yes, I do believe that player ego is a factor here)

[Rowlind Salem]

owing a long lease ship is simply a logistical pain in the Snuggybear. no need to list the specific pains, it all sucks. So does the sail skill in general, make it go away. drop crew requirements altogether. You either have people to man the lines and shooters or you don't.

Rigging should be a dex/str check (linehandling requires muscle)

Shooting should be an int/wis check (calculating projectile trajectories requires brains)

PC ship to ship pvp ought bring both parties involved through a loading screen and into a new zone where they can actually /see/ each other's ships and crew. As soon as that warning shot connects, both teams load in.

that brings into play:
actual player to player communication.
ship weapon calibration.
ranged weapons/spells.
-ward teleport

sail skill was a good idea but it's played out and it is holding back the overall experience because everyone has gotten the hang of it and decided it's too much work to be worth it.

lastly, the big ships need to all be rentable. Maybe you have to be in the right settlement specific faction in order to get the lease, but these things get hoarded and go unused and frankly it's just turned people off.

and yes player ego is definitely a thing because we don't all get down the same way and I don't want to be in a crew with people I don't really vibe with rp-wise. neither does anyone else.

private ownership of ships is just an enforced division between haves and have nots. Whoever got the lease is the boss for the day and if they're good at it people will just go along. If they're not, they won't.

winning the lottery doesn't exactly mean one commands respect, an essential part of being the "Captain".

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

More off topic stuff, but the topic probably ran its course as I think the main point is popular even if some people didn't like me using specific examples. A quick note on that, the point of me bringing up specifics was to illustrate how even when everyone is doing everything right, things can fall through the cracks. I thought that was obvious, but after a long talk with Dawn on discord this morning I realize that people get unnaturally twitchy when you mention them specifically, even if the context of what you are saying is the furthest thing from being judgmental at all.

1) I think people have some unreasonable expectations of ship owners. I blame Fallen Dabus and the person who ran the Merchant navy in their heyday who's name escapes me as I write this. They both did enough sail content to reach their weekly quota on Monday before lunch and kept on going like the energizer bunny throughout the week. Great for those of us who were involved with those crews, not so much for every other captain since who are often compared to that standard.

Now, I'm certainly not an arbiter of what people should and shouldn't be doing when they own a property, but if I had to make a call on that I would say once a week is the speed limit. What I mean by that is, if you miss a week here and there, no one should be batting an eye, but if the boat starts to sit consistently then it's Popo time. Boats are a finite resource after all, and there is a long line of future failed captains that want their shot too .

I also think that the onus of recruitment is really only on the large settlement ships, because as it stands now that's the only way into settlement specific navies, which is actually what this thread was trying to fix. The smaller ships, not so much. What I mean by that is, if you own the leopard, and have 3-6 friends that get the ship out at least once a week, you're good. It's always nice to try and involve others, but since the rentals can reproduce the experience those ships can give you aren't unwittingly gatekeeping anything by keeping it small and tight. Again, that's very different than not using it at all, which is bad because there is once again a long line.

2) On the subject of loyalty, because it's just a game and no one is actually anyone's subordinate, it goes both ways. I've done a lot of smurfing over the years, either with a character that was in between characters and even sometimes with a character that was just in disguise, and I have seen a lot of new crews forming as a result. I've said this before, but the biggest mistake I see would be captains make is they treat their crew like a sail number.

This is especially prominent if the would-be captain has a lot going on landside too, because it often feels like "thanks for helping me get the loot that I control and divvy out to you as I see fit (they always keep the map pieces), see you later I'm off to do some fun things, be here tomorrow to boost my sail score again". There's just no way you are going to inspire loyalty that way, and eventually the pool of would-be sailors dwindles for you when you develop that reputation. And while it's true, every team only has one starting QB, there is a reason why that QB lavishes the offensive line in gifts come christmas time, often spending up to a half a million dollars or more. They know that line is the key to their success. So maybe take your sailors along with you to be involved with your land stuff too every now and again? I bet you will see massive dividends pay off as a result.

[Rowlind Salem]

More off topic stuff, but the topic probably ran its course as I think the main point is popular even if some people didn't like me using specific examples. A quick note on that, the point of me bringing up specifics was to illustrate how even when everyone is doing everything right, things can fall through the cracks. I thought that was obvious, but after a long talk with Dawn on discord this morning I realize that people get unnaturally twitchy when you mention them specifically, even if the context of what you are saying is the furthest thing from being judgmental at all.

1) I think people have some unreasonable expectations of ship owners. I blame Fallen Dabus and the person who ran the Merchant navy in their heyday who's name escapes me as I write this. They both did enough sail content to reach their weekly quota on Monday before lunch and kept on going like the energizer bunny throughout the week. Great for those of us who were involved with those crews, not so much for every other captain since who are often compared to that standard.

Now, I'm certainly not an arbiter of what people should and shouldn't be doing when they own a property, but if I had to make a call on that I would say once a week is the speed limit. What I mean by that is, if you miss a week here and there, no one should be batting an eye, but if the boat starts to sit consistently then it's Popo time. Boats are a finite resource after all, and there is a long line of future failed captains that want their shot too .

I also think that the onus of recruitment is really only on the large settlement ships, because as it stands now that's the only way into settlement specific navies, which is actually what this thread was trying to fix. The smaller ships, not so much. What I mean by that is, if you own the leopard, and have 3-6 friends that get the ship out at least once a week, you're good. It's always nice to try and involve others, but since the rentals can reproduce the experience those ships can give you aren't unwittingly gatekeeping anything by keeping it small and tight. Again, that's very different than not using it at all, which is bad because there is once again a long line.

2) On the subject of loyalty, because it's just a game and no one is actually anyone's subordinate, it goes both ways. I've done a lot of smurfing over the years, either with a character that was in between characters and even sometimes with a character that was just in disguise, and I have seen a lot of new crews forming as a result. I've said this before, but the biggest mistake I see would be captains make is they treat their crew like a sail number.

This is especially prominent if the would-be captain has a lot going on landside too, because it often feels like "thanks for helping me get the loot that I control and divvy out to you as I see fit (they always keep the map pieces), see you later I'm off to do some fun things, be here tomorrow to boost my sail score again". There's just no way you are going to inspire loyalty that way, and eventually the pool of would-be sailors dwindles for you when you develop that reputation. And while it's true, every team only has one starting QB, there is a reason why that QB lavishes the offensive line in gifts come christmas time, often spending up to a half a million dollars or more. They know that line is the key to their success. So maybe take your sailors along with you to be involved with your land stuff too every now and again? I bet you will see massive dividends pay off as a result.

I was in an actual Navy for 15 years, the Captain always has an outsized level of responsibility. It's the nature of the job, one person has to be in charge and set the tone. Which I why I advocate for removal of private ownership.
Doing it for a day is work enough.
Running the logistics and dealing with people for months on end is burnout material.
Problem is when people burn out they just farm the ship out to people and call it good, when it's definitely not good.
That's how you get people holding onto these things for years and you never see em, and when the ship /does/ sail its cause they farmed it out to someone's crew and call it being inclusive.
Put simply, when I smoke it's puff, puff, PASS.
We're missing the pass part.

[Kythana]

Remove sail skill, make it like darts/languages.

Everyone can train to be a master sailor given time.

[FallenDabus]

Its pretty easy to provide a better foundation for sailing factions to thrive. So setting aside the myriad of improvements that could be done for sailing, I want to just focus on the core issue that gets in the way of having more engaging, active crews overall.

Charters:
The first thing you do is look at the charter ships. Andunor, Crow's Nest, Cordor, Guldorand and Sencliff should all have:

• two Crew-2 Ships (Akin to Iron Scout)
  two Crew-3 Ships (Akin to Iron Couriers)
  two Crew-4 Ships (Akin to Sencliff Liberator)

Its just silly that if you want to do a quick sail with a buddy at Sencliff you have to take out a crew 4 ship charter. Its just silly if you are non-Sencliff there is not even a crew 4 charter ship available.

I really fail to see why this is even a thing. There should be enough charter ships so you have options for one that fits the crew size and playstyle of a given crew. It makes everything needlessly complicated and opague for players who want to get into sailing.

Charters also need a small balancing pass. Right now the charters tend to be both slower and weaker than any of the quarter-owned ships. All things being equal, charters are just worse versions of owned/settlement ships. The design simply punishes players trying to run crews on charters for no good reason.

Charters should also have consistent balancing. It is needlessly complicated that the Liberator and Warship (the Sencliff charters) have very different specs. Unless you are a very experienced sailor, its really hard to have a sense of how ships match up when there is so little consistency.

Ships can be instanced areas anyway, so there is no good reason to enforce such scarcity. You design one type of crew 4 ship, one type of crew 3 ship, one type of crew 2 ship, then instance them across the settlements. Ships were quite standardized and mass produced anyway, so having similar looking ships is not much of an immersion problem.

Ownable Ships:
The second thing you do is add more ownable ships:

• one ownable crew 4 ship for Cordor
  one ownable crew 3 ship for Cordor

  one ownable crew 4 ship for Andunor
  one ownable crew 3 ship for Andunor

  one ownable crew 4 ship for Crow's Nest
  three ownable crew 3 ships for Crow's Nest

Will this mean there are more unusued ships that lapse more frequently? Yeah. That is what is desperately needed. You want the owned ships to continue to turn over until they find themselves in the hands of a sailing faction that can manage them.

If you ever run into the issue the majority of owned ships are mantained by active crews and turn-over slows at that point, its a good problem to have. It means sailors have the choice to throw in with one of many fun, engaging factions.

But the simple truth is that winning a ship does not mean you are well suited to run a sailing faction. Yet those who struggle with it have no incentive to release the ship.

Its even worse than this though. There are players who would do really well running a faction on a crew 3 or 4 ship, but they win a crew 5 ship that requires you to mantain a really big faction. Yet the chance they can get a ship of a size more suitable to them is so low, they try to make a crew 5 ship work.

So the current scarcity on owned ship means you usually end up with ships being in the hands of players who do not excell running a faction, or who do not excell at running a faction of the size their ship requires.

The end result is you have a very small number of ownable ships, which also have a very slow turn-over rate, and when they turn over they rarely find themselves in the hands of a player who actually manages to run a sailing faction.

Settlement Navies:
Flagships are great, but each navy should also have access to a regular crew 4 ship. It is not strictly necessary if there are more charters, but it would be a nice rp-flavor touch because then it still is a named "navy ship".

Not only does it mean a navy can be build more easily, as they do not have to build their faction around a crew 6 flagship right away, but active navies can far more easily just put together an impromto voyage between their flagship voyages.

Also, flagships should no longer require upgrades or have the barnacle system. Its fine for owned ships, its dumb to force that on navy ships. Forcing players to regularly take out their flagships to avoid barnacles is dumb. I am sure Cordor can pay a few dockworkers to keep their ship in a proper state even if it is not on active duty.

Spread Too Thin Problem:
The usual arguement I hear is that it would spread players too thin across ships. I do not believe it would be much of an issue.

You will still have a few larger crews because they are just fun to be a part of, and you will have smaller crews that just want to do a bit of sailing with their buddies. What you will reduce is the artifical funneling to crews based on ship access.

Instead of factions competing primarily based if they got reliable access to a ship, you will have more competition based on if a sailing faction is fun to sail with. Which is a great "problem" to have.

[TheDoctor]

I was in an actual Navy for 15 years, the Captain always has an outsized level of responsibility. It's the nature of the job, one person has to be in charge and set the tone. Which I why I advocate for removal of private ownership.

Yeah? So was I. You are trying to compare apples and oranges and yer not even describing the apple right, shippy. In the USN the Old Man (Thas sailor talk for captain, shipmates) has PLENTY of help with the responsibility of running the ship. They literally have whats called a crew. Oh and lets not forget the XO that gets to help out the captain at all times. Oh and lets not forget the MOST IMPORTANT PART! Its the Chiefs who really run things and keep things smooth.

Dunno what Navy you was in but the two things are not similar at all. There is zero comparison here.