HIPS Nerf

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Could. SD get faster stealth speed like rogues to make corner sneaking more viable?

This is already the case and has been for a little bit. Just a few updates ago from Spyre.

Ah i missed that, then this HipS nerf is mostly appropriate as a shadow dancer can blinding spead fast stealth, invisibility potion, darkness, etc. in between HipS uses.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Andunor isn't a drow city.

Oh right I forgot that Anundor is just Cave-flavored Sencliff. My bad.

Not just Andunor specifically, I've seen it happen everywhere on the server, HiPS memeing with its extreme survivability. Hopefully, there'll be a little less of that going forward.

Hopefully. I feel like 30 seconds is still too short compared to the 4 minute G-Sanc countdown. But we'll see.

greater sanctuary can't fail, doesnt require investment on the caster side and also allows one to completely rebuff + heal oneself without breaking stealth. They both are very useful escape tools, not nearly the same thing.

[Ninjimmy]

Andunor isn't a drow city.

Oh right I forgot that Anundor is just Cave-flavored Sencliff. My bad.

Not just Andunor specifically, I've seen it happen everywhere on the server, HiPS memeing with its extreme survivability. Hopefully, there'll be a little less of that going forward.

Hopefully. I feel like 30 seconds is still too short compared to the 4 minute G-Sanc countdown. But we'll see.

greater sanctuary can't fail, doesnt require investment on the caster side and also allows one to completely rebuff + heal oneself without breaking stealth. They both are very useful escape tools, not nearly the same thing.

Point of order, I'm fairly sure concentration checks can still be failed for G Sanc if you get whacked, an 8th level slot is still an investment, arguably a greater one (15 levels of caster VS 5 of SD), to completely rebuff will depend on what buffs you have and how long you have to cast them.

Do still agree they're very both useful escape tools but I don't think in the comparison HIPS comes off as the underdog, especially with 1/8th of the cooldown.

[Archnon]

As a SD heavy player, I'm not exactly opposed to this change. I do believe it mostly hits the 5 level dips and I hope this is the beginning of a long string of nerfs to five level dips. (Really like the monk AC, D-shield dip, monk items, etc) SD heavy comes with some other benefits but they come with some significant drawbacks including:
-Stacking Rogue Speed (Needs Rogue Levels)
-Stacking Rogue Armor (Needs Rogue Levels)
-Shadow Evade (Please fix this so Fairie Fire no longer strips the AC, ala the monk change)
-Shadow Daze (Mid-30's DC is kind of low)

However, especially for high SD characters, remember that Hips is really an offensive as well as defensive move. We don't have grenades. When the shadow dies, we lose our protection but also all of our damage. Hips allows SD players to catch pve and pvp opponents flat footed. And because of the rules of engagement, you have to use it at the start of engagement. Even with it, high level SD's probably aren't going to have their shadow out in pvp and will lose most of their sneak damage. Hit and run is the name of the game when you are low damage with no grenades.

As with most of these nerfs to dip classes, I really think there needs to be some scaling going on and this is a prime candidate. High level SD is really in rough shape now for PVP. It was always not great and now it is bad. Something to consider.

[Chosen Son]

Greater Sanctuary can be countered if you have requisite spells prepared, and are set to counter when he starts casting. A gonne slug, well timed, will also disrupt it, as will likely an archer. Certainly if the arrows start flying before casting starts. With HIPS you just vanish, and most characters will lack the needed spot to see you until the detective roll happens and you can try with listen.

[MrHishprung]

As a HiPS user, i was suprised by the sudden nerf of - i do not hide my elf's only defencive menouver. But after a moment of thought through my experience in using it, is it in RP, PvP and PvE i felt that it did deserved the nerf. Maybe not to 30 (im aware some will agree some not, but its how Aniel decided so i have to deal with it)

As Archer (Ranger/AA/SD) not a type of first liner, more like supportive DPS "Hit&Run". Technically a glass cannon with +90 H/MS. This is heavy strike on my character's survivability technically making her unable to escape the fights, not mentioning fighting back. But that was the issue even with 12 sec CD.

Now, corner hiding and "new" HiPS. (in PvP)
All depends where you are. Places like Andunorian Hub are excellent place for that technically allowing you to forgot about the HiPS with so many obstacles. But not all places have such "boons".

In that case now, the initial HiPS (in scenario you're running away... which i had to do it many times ) will allow you to get distance till opponent will get True Seeing on. Then you have to pray you'll get to transition quick enough to lost them, else there is corner or obstacle to corner hide, which again will only buy you some time.

Now in scenario i'd be actually fight back, things getting a bit grimmer.
Similarly to first scenario initial HiPS will get me distance, then im all at my own that will probably result in trying to run to obstacle while holding "W" and attacking every 6 seconds. Shadow is not reliable enough to me to actually hold on to it. A slight boost of damage, but will not make opponent focus on shadow.

So, as an elf living in UD - or at least trying to (which some love, some hate), HiPS is a hit that will make surviving a bit harder. I made her in thought of counter stealther in stealth, which resulted in exellent hiding skills (>90) with decent spotting capabilities (>50). Of course i had to sacrifice a lot of thing that might help her live longer, but that was the idea.

So summing up. Mind im not really experienced player (~1,5 years), nor in building reliable class mixes. Even worse PvPer (which i try to avoid)

Did HiPS needed a nerf? Yes.
Am i happy about it? Well, not much. At least in current state.
What CD would be good to balance it out? (if it would be suited for my PC) 18-24 sec. Still a nerf for my most used ability (aside of Rapid Shot), but 30 sec and 60 sec would make it useless in fights. both PvP or PvE.

I will also say here i respect Aniel's judgement on how its dealth with, especially when said elf was under her command. Hope the tests will go in favor of reduced CD, but considering the amount of build mixes i doubt it will happen. For me personally Monk/SD are the most scary (or Monks in general )

Thats said. Hope it will contribute to discussion.

[Shiki]

As a HiPS user, i was suprised by the sudden nerf of - i do not hide my elf's only defencive menouver. But after a moment of thought through my experience in using it, is it in RP, PvP and PvE i felt that it did deserved the nerf. Maybe not to 30 (im aware some will agree some not, but its how Aniel decided so i have to deal with it)

As Archer (Ranger/AA/SD) not a type of first liner, more like supportive DPS "Hit&Run". Technically a glass cannon with +90 H/MS. This is heavy strike on my character's survivability technically making her unable to escape the fights, not mentioning fighting back. But that was the issue even with 12 sec CD.

Now, corner hiding and "new" HiPS. (in PvP)
All depends where you are. Places like Andunorian Hub are excellent place for that technically allowing you to forgot about the HiPS with so many obstacles. But not all places have such "boons".

In that case now, the initial HiPS (in scenario you're running away... which i had to do it many times ) will allow you to get distance till opponent will get True Seeing on. Then you have to pray you'll get to transition quick enough to lost them, else there is corner or obstacle to corner hide, which again will only buy you some time.

Now in scenario i'd be actually fight back, things getting a bit grimmer.
Similarly to first scenario initial HiPS will get me distance, then im all at my own that will probably result in trying to run to obstacle while holding "W" and attacking every 6 seconds. Shadow is not reliable enough to me to actually hold on to it. A slight boost of damage, but will not make opponent focus on shadow.

So, as an elf living in UD - or at least trying to (which some love, some hate), HiPS is a hit that will make surviving a bit harder. I made her in thought of counter stealther in stealth, which resulted in exellent hiding skills (>90) with decent spotting capabilities (>50). Of course i had to sacrifice a lot of thing that might help her live longer, but that was the idea.

So summing up. Mind im not really experienced player (~1,5 years), nor in building reliable class mixes. Even worse PvPer (which i try to avoid)

Did HiPS needed a nerf? Yes.
Am i happy about it? Well, not much. At least in current state.
What CD would be good to balance it out? (if it would be suited for my PC) 18-24 sec. Still a nerf for my most used ability (aside of Rapid Shot), but 30 sec and 60 sec would make it useless in fights. both PvP or PvE.

I will also say here i respect Aniel's judgement on how its dealth with, especially when said elf was under her command. Hope the tests will go in favor of reduced CD, but considering the amount of build mixes i doubt it will happen. For me personally Monk/SD are the most scary (or Monks in general )

Thats said. Hope it will contribute to discussion.

Well, I'm glad that despite how you think this hurts your character you agree with or at least understand the nerf.

As a ranger AA with this, I can agree, being able to poof on people is a big part of your survivability. It's also a major, exploitable weakness for other people to use on your ranged character, and archers are similarly incredibly powerful. There is a reason the answer to lore and UMD's split has become divine dips, full casters, archers, and HIPSers. Anything other than those is highly vulnerable to all of those, lacking many ways to counterplay or weather their assaults.

Archers currently are one of the most dangerous, because at least with melee HIPS, the HIPSer does actually have to come into your reach. Archers can use several techniques to limit how many attacks another character is able to make on them, on top of getting HIPS either some or all the time, and having all the tools to make it the best it can possibly be in the case of rangers.

In PVE you really need a guard or to be striking certain weaker enemies, because your AC is going to suffer. The tradeoff for this is, in your case, laser accurate, always reliable, heavy two-handed weapon strikes, five to 6 times per round. (or at least it is with Archer Rangers, where the accuracy is traded off for damage that makes 2h barbarians jealous.)

in PVE, enemies will jump you, in PVP, you can disappear, make your way almost off most people's screens, and if they don't catch the arrows hitting their player model, they might not even know you're killing them. In a group fight, they actually might never realize what's hurting them so much. But yes, if they do strike you, it's probably going to be over in moments because you're almost always flatfooted and there's a fantastic case to be made for archers to NOT take IEXP in pursuit of more utility or just less generalized feats.

You made the choice to lean on stealth for your survivability, and now it's still an effect you can lean on in exactly the same way, with some changes in how you engage, where you engage from, and with the use of corner stealth you're still powerful. In places where that's not something you can do, rather than lamenting the nerf, take into account that you are at greater risk in a protracted fight, and perhaps use stealth to simply not fight that battle, which is also a choice you can make. Running away is not less possible because of this, only overuse and overdependence on a powerful, counterless ability.

In the case you get truesighted and need to GO immediately, Breach wand them, then drink an invis potion. This results in the same effect as HIPS, but offers counterplay that a 12s cd on HIPS did not. Or corner stealth them before the CD is up, which also offers counterplay.

Since I didn't address this with perhaps as much clarity, Archers are a larger reason why HIPS needed this nerf than SDs or shadowmages. Shadowmages lack the ability to capitalize on the fact that HIPS automatically flatfoots other players. Melee SDs are able to use this for high burst but must actually reach melee range, and so the opportunity is there for them to fat finger and be killed, or just be stupid and stay engaged in a combat they're losing and be killed. Both of which a good player can also simply not do and never, ever be in danger of death, or at least have the option to leave if they are, which is much, much harder for most other builds.

If an archer with HIPS can see you, with the 12 second CD, they can force you to be flat-footed every third round or so. When you are flatfooted, your dodge and tumble AC are nothing. A deep ranger archer will be pushing 48 AB, which means that very likely now, 6 arrows dealing 60+ damage are incoming for your face, all of which have a very high probability to strike you. This is a low estimate, because these arrows could critical for significantly more. A significant portion of this damage can be mitigated by defensive essences(reducing it by potentially 20 or 25 damage per strike), but for at least one or two rounds, you will likely not be given the option to reply to the incoming damage.

With a crit, an archer can 1round pretty much anyone if all their arrows strike or they're using complex templated arrows. The ability to actually remove a player from the field of battle within four rounds is insanely powerful, and with HIPS, they are nearly un-engageable in reply if they don't screw up.

Add to that that an AA ignores all other forms of damage reduction, and that a ranger will simply not give a damn about your Premonition, because he's going to be hitting you for 30-40 per arrow and deplete it in two rounds anyway, and that damage shields like acid sheath are meaningless to archers...

HIPS is not a joke, you guys. It's crazy.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

The feats required for Shadowdancer are also required for Weaponmaster which makes it easy to pick up also for melee builds. A well built weaponmaster can already shred most PC's in one round without them being flat-footed. HiPS on a Barb/WM with 800 hp and 250 crits is insane. Even with a 30 second cooldown very, VERY few builds are going to beat that in a 1v1.

[Shiki]

The feats required for Shadowdancer are also required for Weaponmaster which makes it easy to pick up also for melee builds. A well built weaponmaster can already shred most PC's in one round without them being flat-footed. HiPS on a Barb/WM with 800 hp and 250 crits is insane. Even with a 30 second cooldown very, VERY few builds are going to beat that in a 1v1.

I don't disagree, but those builds sound like they'd be very feat-starved or very difficult to play in terms of gearing. With the caveat I haven't SEEN them, you're giving up a lot of AC being a 2h WM Barb, and giving up rage powers and also high barb level rage effects by going 18/7/5.

That doesn't change that it'd be able to 2hand crit for potentially 120s or 180s from a standing start with some 2h weapons, and the ability to force flatfooted would mean 1rounding something would not be even slightly rare.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I don't disagree, but those builds sound like they'd be very feat-starved or very difficult to play in terms of gearing. With the caveat I haven't SEEN them, you're giving up a lot of AC being a 2h WM Barb, and giving up rage powers and also high barb level rage effects by going 18/7/5.

That doesn't change that it'd be able to 2hand crit for potentially 120s or 180s from a standing start with some 2h weapons, and the ability to force flatfooted would mean 1rounding something would not be even slightly rare.

In general for any build you make sacrifices if you want to excel at something in particular. This kind of build has no AC but when you come from the shadows hitting them flat-footed they don't have AC either. It would have plenty of weaknesses of course that might make it suffer in PVE or group PVP, but in a 1v1 PVP no one is even going to survive the first round against it if the player initiates it with HiPS, except maybe an Epic Dodge Palemaster meme build.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

[snip]HiPS is fundamentally an unfair mechanic that arguably shouldn't exist. There's a good reason why it was disabled for the majority of Arelith's existence, and to my understanding why most PvP arena servers also have it disabled. It is at its core a toxic ability that offers no means of counterplay and is simply uninteresting to play against. Upon activation, the user becomes invisible to the other player and is free to attack against their flat-footed AC. This is because the game only periodically checks for stealth to roll detection skills. True seeing, in all of its 6-second glory, doesn't do much better and can also be bypassed by correct HiPS timings, albeit it is a little tighter than standard detection skills which are essentially a complete non-factor in HiPS's power level.[/snip]

Sorry, I had to highlight this. I've literally been saying this since the True Seeing nerf, so it's awesome to hear a Dev confirm the mechanics when I was getting so much flack for it.

Regarding caltrops a couple of pages ago- I did know they didn't go away unless you took all the damage, but I didn't know they even triggered on DM's. Also didn't know other people couldn't see them if they loaded in after. My example never intended to take advantage of the fact that they ping you in the other zone- the situation I mentioned very specifically called out using them outside the door to check for followers/spies. The intention would be that afterwards you could "clean up" your caltrops, making sure no one else was around.

DM ruling makes it a non-starter for conversation, though.

On topic, overall I think this was a smart change, even though my next character will utilize HiPS mechanics for combat. I really won't need to be able to do it every twelve seconds. It would've been nice- for me- but it definitely wouldn't have been fair to whatever was on the other side of it.

[Chosen Son]

I dont understand how True Sight at 6 seconds was ever seen as counter to HiPS. Even if their timing is -perfect- all you need to do to counter it is run directly away from them in a straight line until 6 seconds pass, hips, attack them while they read another true sight scroll adding more str drain, or lob a grenade fishing for a stun. They will run out of true sight scrolls, or fail a roll far sooner then you run out of the ability to run directly away, and reenter stealth.

[Shiki]

Mainly because it academically does counter the primary effect of HIPS or stealth. It reveals them to you. This is a lion's share of the point about the lore change making HIPS a real problem. What was once a painfully expensive, mostly inadequate counter, but nonetheless a counter, is now basically nonexistant. You either are a listen bot hoping to catch out non ranger stealthers, or good Snuggle a Bugbear luck.

[Chosen Son]

Before nerfs it did not matter that true sight revealed you to them. It lasts 6 seconds so much like countering true strike potions, you simply run for the duration. You can even start running the moment you see a scroll being used after you hips. Dont wait for the animaation to end and the spell to take effect, drop stealth and move away and it is not possible, even in theory for them to catch you without you running into a wall or something. You are both moving at same speed (hasted), but you have a head start. Like I said in post above, They will run out of true sight scrolls, or fail a grenade save and die before you run out of hips uses (you had a new one every 12 seconds so never running out)

Now they need to alternate between corner sneaking, vibe mine wands and their hips. The ability for 19/5/6 to be utterly toxic in pvp is still there, it just require s some basic level of effort. A pc without detect will still have no meaningful way to kill you in 1 vs 1 pvp, unless you chose to die as a sd.

[Arigard]

As a SD heavy player, I'm not exactly opposed to this change. I do believe it mostly hits the 5 level dips and I hope this is the beginning of a long string of nerfs to five level dips. (Really like the monk AC, D-shield dip, monk items, etc) SD heavy comes with some other benefits but they come with some significant drawbacks including:
-Stacking Rogue Speed (Needs Rogue Levels)
-Stacking Rogue Armor (Needs Rogue Levels)
-Shadow Evade (Please fix this so Fairie Fire no longer strips the AC, ala the monk change)
-Shadow Daze (Mid-30's DC is kind of low)

However, especially for high SD characters, remember that Hips is really an offensive as well as defensive move. We don't have grenades. When the shadow dies, we lose our protection but also all of our damage. Hips allows SD players to catch pve and pvp opponents flat footed. And because of the rules of engagement, you have to use it at the start of engagement. Even with it, high level SD's probably aren't going to have their shadow out in pvp and will lose most of their sneak damage. Hit and run is the name of the game when you are low damage with no grenades.

As with most of these nerfs to dip classes, I really think there needs to be some scaling going on and this is a prime candidate. High level SD is really in rough shape now for PVP. It was always not great and now it is bad. Something to consider.

This is really the main issue. Other classes get so many benefits as you progress into them heavily, but SD is so reliant upon rogue, that there's really not much you get back from being a heavy SD now over just taking the dip. It was annoying before, but at least you had the HIPS there to fall back on, but right now, heavy SD is pretty unappealing in comparison to heavy anything else + a dip. ironically, this has actually made the dip even more appealing than actually investing into the class that should have HIPS & stealth as it's main go to ability in the first place.

If you decide to do anything but a rogue/SD dip now you're going to lose out on a large chunk of the goodies, so your options are very limited for coming up with interesting heavy shadow-dancer outside of a rogue base.

In PvP you have an EDK in almost every party already fearing you for -10 on everything that you are unable to sneak away from, or even hit with sneak, crit/sneak immune chars & summons (PMs) are around in high numbers and there's a whole load of characters out there that can crit you for half your HP in one flurry with access to much higher base ab and saves than a heavy SD can get. There's a lot of very effective and powerful tools out there in the world. I get that HIPS was one of them, but so are weapon-master crit ranges and sneak/crit immunity and hellball and gsanc and having 50+ ab... the list goes on.

Without the ability to sneak consistently heavy SDers are pretty much SoL compared to pretty much every other class now. I understand that HIPS was strong & needed to be changed to an extent, but if as a mage, or a WM you had to run to a corner every-time you needed to cast a spell, or crit, there would be an uproar from people playing those characters. It might work in principle, but in practice the second most SDers no longer have HIPS available, they are highly vulnerable to pretty much everything and lack offense in a straight up toe to toe confrontation. This change would have been fine if SDers had more in their arsenal to draw on, but the fact is, they simply don't. Keep in mind any character with hide/ms skills can go away and make a 'corner sneaker', at this points it's the same as saying "Well your class has access to hide/ms". Great, so do like 9 other classes on top of everything else they get.

When you look at a few examples of other class progressions done to a higher level that either have HIPS or could be 'corner sneakers':

-Rangers have the ability to deal dmg that heavy SDers cannot on a regular basis due to FE, companions and spells
-Rogues have their grenades and permanent sneaks plus easier access to a variety of items due to UMD (and lets not forget rogue bonus feats like crippling strike)
-monks have immunities, self healing, higher base dmg and attacks per round, plus AC they cannot lose, even flatfooted.
-Bards have song/curse debuffs and a load of arcane spells to help them out.
-AA have ridiculous AB progression and extra DMG to supplement them.
-Palemasters? Immunity to sneak/crit + Vamps/Mummies/Dracolich and Lvl 9 spells that can pop most rogue/SD players (Unless they've spent millions on gold to get their god awful fort/will saves up) pretty easily with little effort.
-Assassin. Everyone wants a pocket assassin.
-Harper Scout - You get more from a 5 dip in HS than 15+ in SD.
-Shifter. Mm. At least they get some RP tools I guess?
-Shadowdancer - A summon that is average in effectiveness. Good against mid-high content, but fairly unless past that, the equivalent of a mid tier enchantment spell once every three minutes, a bit of extra AC (SS, Swash, PM all get as much & more in some cases btw) and then some concealment that can be cancelled out by a lvl 1 spell.

All of the above classes also have access to hide/ms and could corner sneak too. That's not an argument for them to have none of the other extra things they have. Pale-masters can corner sneak and instantly kill you with a flatfooted touch attack, if they wanted to, if the arguments are hypothetical situations. That one ability is better than anything Shadow-dancers get and it's just a small part of the class.

PvE effectiveness.

-Spellswords, well, let's not even begin to talk about how broken spell-swords are still even after their recent changes. It's still easy to hit mid 60 flat AC without touching expertise on certain builds, high 40 ab, with lvl 9 spells, un-dispellable EMA, massive dmg bonus and imbues. They can also, by the way, still summon using gate & certain innate abilities (Isn't their summoning restriction absolute?). It's an absolute myth that SDers are the best classes to do PvE on also, SS's win this hands down across the board, which is why I bring them up.

Tldr: I guess my overarching point is that heavy Shadowdancer doesn't really have much of an identity at present outside of HIPS. Maybe it never really did & the availability of HIPS & it's ease at lvling kept it worthwhile, I suppose and made it an easier class for solo players, but pretty much every other class out there has tools to provide them with a clear pathway to follow that aids with both their RP and day to day effectiveness. I agree that HIPS needed to be looked at, I'm not arguing that this shouldn't have happened, but more than ever it feels like a very obvious hole has now been left in the Shadow-dancer progression when you look at how fleshed out most of the other options are.

The tagline throughout this thread though of "It's cool, you can still corner-sneak" does not justify an entire class progression having next to nothing for the investment.

[Shiki]

Words.

Tradeoffs exist. A heavy Barbarian is trading away things to get the feats you describe. A heavy AA, a better comparison with SD, is trading away an extremely compelling amount of damage, and nature-only HIPS, and ranger versatility in general, for reliable damage and some interesting toys from AA spell arrows. Rogues do get fun toys. SDs synergize with most of them, so if you're dipping rogue.

Uncanny dodge for monks affects only, I believe, Wisdom and Dex AC, and I may be wrong and it may only be Dex AC, it does not change that flatfooting someone removes tumble and dodge bonuses. Uncanny dodge does not prevent this, despite the fact that it should do so.

I don't know why 80% concealment for free all the time while your shadow is out is not compelling, nor the extra attacks and personal guard on command offering the ability to sneak everything all the time wouldn't be a factor. Rogues have to use consumables and clever play to do this. SDs need to summon their pet and left click. That's why people say they're so great in PVE. edit: I wrote the dumb other letter :v They are even more brainless than playing a conjuror or necromancer cleric in almost every circumstance.

Regarding saves: If you are not a 4 attribute character, (IE, a monk, or a divine dip, or an assassin or swashbuckler) then you have no excuse not finding a mage and giving them twenty thousand or so gold and asking for a ring, or a pair of gloves, or spending some gold on a crafter for a nice piece of armor.

Enchanting is easy, it's not particularly expensive when you can go dungeon grind or do writs and come home with 20k for an evening of dungeoning (or much, much more). A full paperdoll of +1 str/dex +1 con gear will let you cap all three stats with buff wands, and enchantments of +2 for two skills skills and +1 to a specific save can add significant amounts to your saves, as well as understanding what Spellcraft is and does and what Protection from Alignments does.

If you are not looking at 30 in every save or better when fully buffed, it isn't the fault of the class you're playing, it is yours, and how good your saves are has nothing to do with the fact that HIPS is extremely powerful.

[Might-N-Magic]

Enchanting is easy, it's not particularly expensive when you can go dungeon grind or do writs and come home with 20k for an evening of dungeoning (or much, much more). A full paperdoll of +1 str/dex +1 con gear will let you cap all three stats with buff wands, and enchantments of +2 for two skills skills and +1 to a specific save can add significant amounts to your saves, as well as understanding what Spellcraft is and does and what Protection from Alignments does.

If you are not looking at 30 in every save or better when fully buffed, it isn't the fault of the class you're playing, it is yours, and how good your saves are has nothing to do with the fact that HIPS is extremely powerful.

I just had to laugh. This is the equivalent of someone giving you a map of Florida and telling you it's Narnia. Nonsense and fantasy.

I'm guessing you're like the 90% of everybody else who mains divine warriors, spellswords, and wizards. Of all the things to nerf in the game, the devs chose a z-tier class that isn't even remotely one of the top ten problems plaguing the server in terms of balance. It's becoming easier and easier to believe the devs do nothing but main paladins and wizard builds with more and more updates.

[Arigard]

Enchanting is easy, it's not particularly expensive when you can go dungeon grind or do writs and come home with 20k for an evening of dungeoning (or much, much more). A full paperdoll of +1 str/dex +1 con gear will let you cap all three stats with buff wands, and enchantments of +2 for two skills skills and +1 to a specific save can add significant amounts to your saves, as well as understanding what Spellcraft is and does and what Protection from Alignments does.

If you are not looking at 30 in every save or better when fully buffed, it isn't the fault of the class you're playing, it is yours, and how good your saves are has nothing to do with the fact that HIPS is extremely powerful.

I just had to laugh. This is the equivalent of someone giving you a map of Florida and telling you it's Narnia. Nonsense and fantasy.

I'm guessing you're like the 90% of everybody else who mains divine warriors, spellswords, and wizards. Of all the things to nerf in the game, the devs chose a z-tier class that isn't even remotely one of the top ten problems plaguing the server in terms of balance. It's becoming easier and easier to believe the devs do nothing but main paladins and wizard builds with more and more updates.

A rogue/ftr/SD 10/4/16 progression gets 9 base will and 12 base fort.

Shiki clearly plays a different game where something called 'class progression' doesn't exist. Enchantment clearly works very differently for him also. I wish I knew the secrets to putting 20+ into both will & fort saves on 11 items. You can boost fort by using rings. Your will is always going to suck.

The funny thing is 30 saves aren't even that good. It's still a 45% chance to fail the lvl 9 spell benchmark and over 50% to fail the worst offending spells in the 40+ bracket. So even if by some fluke, you have every scroll in the game up long enough to cover your back + uni saves on every item in your inventory and get your will close to 30, you still a) can easily be dispelled and b) still have bad saves compared to many other classes. Let's not even mention the fact that there are spells out there that ignore spellcraft.

A heavy AA, a better comparison with SD, is trading away an extremely compelling amount of damage, and nature-only HIPS, and ranger versatility in general, for reliable damage and some interesting toys from AA spell arrows.

You conveniently forgot to mention the obscene AB & DR piercing ability there. You also seem to have conveniently not read my actual post, because you seem to suggest I'm against the change....

As was previously stated: HIPS needed looking at, but now that it's no longer a crutch, the Shadowdancer class is looking very barebones with not much else to it's name when compared to heavy investment in other classes.

[Might-N-Magic]

Regardless of all this "THIS NERF GUD" nonsense, one thing cannot even be argued against: 30 seconds means this feat is now meaningless and useless in both PvP and PvE fights. You will never ever get to use it before the fight is over. You will die or the other guy will die long before you ever see "Hide in Plain Sight Available."

And where is our relevel for those who want to lose this trash class now? When you make a change this big, you should at least give us the ability to ditch what you've scuttled. I'm basically playing a max level 25 character now.

I just feel sorry for the people who wasted so much time on investing majority SD characters who are ill-suited for other builds. Sorry mang, you should have made a paladin or wizard.

[Shiki]

I just had to laugh. This is the equivalent of someone giving you a map of Florida and telling you it's Narnia. Nonsense and fantasy.

I'm guessing you're like the 90% of everybody else who mains divine warriors, spellswords, and wizards. Of all the things to nerf in the game, the devs chose a z-tier class that isn't even remotely one of the top ten problems plaguing the server in terms of balance. It's becoming easier and easier to believe the devs do nothing but main paladins and wizard builds with more and more updates.

A rogue/ftr/SD 10/4/16 progression gets 9 base will and 12 base fort.

Shiki clearly plays a different game where something called 'class progression' doesn't exist. Enchantment clearly works very differently for him also. I wish I knew the secrets to putting 20+ into both will & fort saves on 11 items. You can boost fort by using rings. Your will is always going to suck.

The funny thing is 30 saves aren't even that good. It's still a 45% chance to fail the lvl 9 spell benchmark and over 50% to fail the worst offending spells in the 40+ bracket. So even if by some fluke, you have every scroll in the game up long enough to cover your back + uni saves on every item in your inventory and get your will close to 30, you still a) can easily be dispelled and b) still have bad saves compared to many other classes. Let's not even mention the fact that there are spells out there that ignore spellcraft.

A heavy AA, a better comparison with SD, is trading away an extremely compelling amount of damage, and nature-only HIPS, and ranger versatility in general, for reliable damage and some interesting toys from AA spell arrows.

You conveniently forgot to mention the obscene AB & DR piercing ability there. You also seem to have conveniently not read my actual post, because you seem to suggest I'm against the change....

As was previously stated: HIPS needed looking at, but now that it's no longer a crutch, the Shadowdancer class is looking very barebones with not much else to it's name when compared to heavy investment in other classes.

Well, not having spellcraft is going to hurt, that's true. I haven't built a SD, I'll do the maths here, I'm assuming you aren't counting epic +5 saves in this, and were giving me the base saves at 20. If not, I dunno how they reach 20 without busting +4 will, that sounds horrible, but I remember laughing at how vulnerable a rogue I played was to will stuff prior to gearing, too.

12/whatever/9

+5 epic
17/whatever+5/14

+stats, assume 12 con base, 10 wis base. Reflex would of course be +13 or 14 easily.
24/whatever+19/16

+saves gear, lets say +2 unisaves on rings and will on... gloves, belt, helm and neck. +4 total You could likely squeeze another unisaves onto something and cap stats, but I'm not actually planning this all out in exacting detail.
26/whatever+21/22

+2/+2/+4 PFA
28/whatever+23/26

+3 spellcraft (assuming no SC on gear)
31/whatever+26/29

Most non spell effects available to players do not push past about 32 DC, maybe 35 on the high side. That means 28 is looking okay, though 26 is uncomfortable.

Now, no sc on gear means 28/fantastic i guess/26 saves is a thing. This is likely going to happen because stealther. You're death and nep immune from a penumbral vestments, probably. You need a source of mind immunity but you can probably cover that with mind blank scrolls (possibly not because that takes skills too, really depends what you want your gear to look like) but you can probably manage 5 SC on something, because 16 SD means +16 soft stealth.

16+4 gift is 20. +4 camouflage and +10 one with the land is 34 (obtained from items, trade for em, you can use wands, make friends with a ranger who makes wands), so you need 16 soft hide from gear to cap it. I'm not saying gearing a combat set won't potentially be very tight if done this way, or might even be impossible to get the full +50 soft hide while also getting these saves. I haven't done THAT math out. It's safe to assume at least one of the skills on every piece of gear will need to be Move Silently, regardless of how much Hide you need. I know with the right gear 27 Hide is obtainable. It may be a wrench and some shuffling might need to be done to actually manage that. MS is nearly impossible to hit the +50 soft cap with, but is also more important to try for.

What I'm saying here is that gearing can, in fact, reach 30 saves vs spells, which is by far what you really want the will save for. Anything that fears, drink clarity before engaging. You should be drinking clarity as one of your first choices when a fight breaks out anyway, to protect yourself from all manner of bad things that can happen. Even people with really good saves generally should drink clarity.

And yes, 30 isn't great. I didn't EVER say it was. I do think it's a good start and not a level anyone should, properly built, ever be below. But it's still a coinflip, and that's better than trash, if not very reliable. And it looks like that 9 base just became potentially anywhere from 29 to 31 depending on what you do with your wisdom score.

This also doesn't take into account the willpower and fortitude boons available to everyone who can get to certain places for... I believe the minimum it'd raise a 10 wis character would be +4 will total? For a whole month. So 26 becomes 30, and vs spells becomes 33. It's actually a guaranteed wisdom increase if lower than 12, with a 1/3 chance for +2 willpower. Guaranteed +1, 26 becomes 27, vs spells becomes 30. Fortitude likewise can be raised by a minimum of +3 by the other boon. Meaning 28 becomes 31, and vs spells becomes 34.

34/whatever+26/31 vs spells, for clarity.

I said low to mid 30s. I'm living in Narnia I guess, lol.

I also did in fact mention the difference with AA and Ranger in prior posts in this very thread, because it's a major part of the tradeoff involved with the AA vs the Ranger. I also mention it in the quoted text.

Arcane Archer, I say again, clearly, is trading away an extremely compelling amount of damage (from Bane, Favored enemies, and fighter feats) for reliable damage (from Arcane Archer magical +9 arrows, the reliability factor being that A: you don't miss, and B: they never don't hurt for 40 to 50 damage, as the only meaningful DR that affects them is defensive essences).

Edit: Regarding dispels. You're mundane. All your buffs are CL 30, and neither zoo buffs nor Protection from Alignment are part of the breach list. Nor is Clarity. Mind Blank, however, is. Your dispel DC is 42, Greater dispel from an epic abjurer is d20+26. In other words, you are dispelled on a 16+ roll. It's not perfect, but nobody's going to wipe you of buffs unless you get very unlucky.

Edit edit: Spellcraft would only need a single +2. You have +2 int bonus, because that's the trend nowadays, and 16 SC cross-class, so 18 total. A +2 on one piece of gear is a pretty nice trade for an extra +1 to saves. You need boots for +5 hide and MS, and for a hide set you'd want a displacer cloak for +4 more. You need a further +7 hide to cap your the soft bonus. 3 or 4 pieces of gear with hide would do it, and then the rest could be SC/MS or maybe even toss in some lore to break 35 and get level 5 scrolls. It FEELS doable.

For clarity, that means 25 SC is achievable with three pieces of spellcraft gear and an int wand. meaning 33 will vs spells and 36 fort, after boons. Even without boons, you'll break 30 vs spells.

Edit edit edit: Penumbral vestments is a +4 to hide, so actually you need +3 from other gear, or you could swap the displacer cloak for a sergeant's cloak and still need +7 from gear. That would give you a significant leg up on saves vs fear, particularly if you use the cloak's innate spell prior to a fight with a summoner of dragons or vs a PVE dragon. You'd still want to clarity.

[Kalopsia]

HiPS was (and still is, somewhat) a good counter to builds relying on Divine Shield for AC, as these characters generally lose around 21AC of their 60-70 when caught flat-footed. These builds are already quite popular, and I believe this change will further promote that.

Furthermore, I wanted to address the archer comments above. HiPS is just one tool in their box, but archery by itself is immensely powerful right now, and characters formerly relying on stealth and HiPS for defense are now easy targets for ranged attackers. The change made me wonder how a Shadowmage with 400HP and essentially no AC is going to survive longer than one or two rounds while attacked by an AA, let alone the 30 seconds it would take for HiPS to be available again.

Which brings me to the next point I wanted to talk about: Greater Sanctuary. It will indeed let mages disengage quite safely and is likely not as powerful as HiPS, but I believe the fact that an 8th level spell slot is less valuable than two feats, five class levels, a class slot and a lot of stealth gear should also be considered when comparing both abilities' cooldowns.

Gearing for stealth to the point of HiPS becoming fairly reliable (usually around 90 buffed Hide and ~75MS) often comes at a great sacrifice of saving throws. That's because you're using enchanted Rings of Hiding instead of the +2 unisave ones, for example, or going for many skill enchantments on dual stat gear and thus eliminating the option to add a masterwork rune for extra unisaves.

30 seconds of cooldown leave me with the impression that this sacrifice is no longer worth it, and that HiPS has changed from a primary defensive option to a situational tool that can prove useful but is not worth going all out with (stealth) gear for.
In my opinion, offering rebuilds would make sense in such a situation, as characters now unable to rely on their primary defense might have chosen a different build and gear approach with this cooldown in mind.

[AstralUniverse]

HiPS was (and still is, somewhat) a good counter to builds relying on Divine Shield for AC, as these characters generally lose around 21AC of their 60-70 when caught flat-footed. These builds are already quite popular, and I believe this change will further promote that.

These builds also have little to 0 counters against hips. We've covered that a use of true sight for 6 seconds is easy to play around for the hisper (also because of the scroll's casting time, which I dont think was noted yet) by running away for few sec, ultimately wasting time and resources on the paladin's end more than anything else. Maybe I'm missing something but I've been in similar situations several times on melee builds vs hipsers and omg it's so annoying even when you dont play your fight around divine might/shield timings.

There could be million reasons why these builds were popular in a realm where every second 5 sd dip build can destroy them, doesnt mean it's a bad thing they're popular or that they dont have clear weaknesses to other builds. So while, on paper, this change should promote these builds even more, but that's not necessarily going to change the landscape much, except that we'll see less SDs and SMs so we'll see more of everything else naturally.

Furthermore, I wanted to address the archer comments above. HiPS is just one tool in their box, but archery by itself is immensely powerful right now, and characters formerly relying on stealth and HiPS for defense are now easy targets for ranged attackers. The change made me wonder how a Shadowmage with 400HP and essentially no AC is going to survive longer than one or two rounds while attacked by an AA, let alone the 30 seconds it would take for HiPS to be available again.

This is tricky, because this change is a nerf to all hips users and when you simulate a fight between a shadowmage and an AA, you kinda dont take into account that many archers (which, as you said, archery in general is just very strong right now) also have hips and get hurt by this change too. So it's more complex than an aa vs shadowmage vacuum.

The rest of your post, I completely agree with and I kinda always hated the 5sd dip (played it once, but for epic dodge access, not hips). I hope the team is considering scaling down the CD for heavy sd builds which arent pvp focused anyway, nor they relay hard on their hips for pve because they can face tank everything with a shadow.

[Shiki]

Fair point about Shadowmage hide gearing, and other things too.

SDs have it easier with penumbral vestments and SD levels counting towards it.

But an SM will also have full +6 vs spells before gear, and can afford to pump that by another +3 at least from gear before thinking about anything with unisaves. 2 stats, 1 specific save, 4 skill gear is doable (if not fun, this is where you ARE starting to talk about some real money, but still achievable, and not yet in the millions) for other pieces than the hide rings, and depending on multiclass dip they have several opportunities to be able to also make a ranger friend for camouflage and one with the land wands. Their saves will be comfier, I think, than the shadowdancer's. Especially vs spells.

That said, before starting with skills on from-scratch enchanted gear, fine elven boots, displacer cloak, and hide rings bring an SM with Epic Skill focus and gift to 84 hide, and there's easily room for another 10 hide there on gear.

I think the point a lot of people are making who don't dislike the change is that HIPS is not what makes stealth and stealth builds good, or that if that's the way people feel about it, that that feeling should change, because it's just a bonus to the functionality of Stealth and isn't a particularly good thing for balance, regardless.

Stealth would still be powerful in the current environment with HIPS on a longer cooldown or even completely removed. Whether or not SDs should have something else to offer, because they are underwhelming, doesn't mean HIPS as it functions, or functioned, is at all an acceptable gimmick around which to build a character.

[Kalopsia]

Fair point about Shadowmage hide gearing, and other things too.

[snip!]

I think the point a lot of people are making who don't dislike the change is that HIPS is not what makes stealth and stealth builds good, or that if that's the way people feel about it, that that feeling should change, because it's just a bonus to the functionality of Stealth and isn't a particularly good thing for balance, regardless.

Stealth would still be powerful in the current environment with HIPS on a longer cooldown or even completely removed. Whether or not SDs should have something else to offer, because they are underwhelming, doesn't mean HIPS as it functions, or functioned, is at all an acceptable gimmick around which to build a character.

I'm not denying that stealth without HiPS is powerful, otherwise 24/6 Rogues wouldn't exist. All I was trying to say is that in the last few years, building around HiPS as a primary defense option was a viable approach. Not all fights are taking place in areas with places to cornersneak, though, so these characters are now left with no reliable defense.

There were definitely STR Shadowdancers who planned to survive with HiPS in PvP despite primarily being a PvE build, or Shadowmages who'd hoped to overcome most mages' vulnerability against (Arcane) Archers with those high stealth skills and the ability to disappear when targeted.

If rebuilds were offered, this change would be perfectly fine. Balance-wise it is. It just invalidates a number of builds and likely millions of gear investment.

[-XXX-]

How does it invalidate the gear?
I imagine that most stealth builds would have comparable gear setup regardless of HIPS