Mount/Cavalier Feedback

[AstralUniverse]

To me personally it also makes a lot of sense on a thematic level that a character with deep investment into tumble has less "time" to be also masterful at riding horses, unless they practice acrobatics while *on* a horse. So... yeah.. It's just a good change over all. If anything, I would argue that thematically speaking, casters should not have 100% chance to succeed spells on a horse without cavalier levels, but that would probably just entirely remove caster riders altogether, so it's just fine as is really.

[Scurvy Cur]

This sounds very much like you are discussing the use of charge against npcs.

The root applies only when hitting pvp targets.

[BurntGnome]

My experiences so far:

Whirlwind on horse could be great if the hitbox didnt push anything large away from you. I really dont see a need for it the share timers with charge either, considering charge doesnt do a whole lot now.
Spirited Charge in PvE still works, I guess. Its free damage, but unless you roll a devastating charge, its not really any higher than your average crit is. In PvP, its basically pointless unless youre hitting a mage or something that doesnt trigger the root.
The ride AC change dropped me several AC, so when you pair it with the charge root, you're dead. There is no hit and run, you just have to hope you can manhandle whoever you're attacking then and there or you're dead.

Im running 10/10/10 fighter/cav/knight. Its almost better for me to not be on the horse, which I think defeats the purpose.

[Dreams]

This sounds very much like you are discussing the use of charge against npcs.

The root applies only when hitting pvp targets.

You’re right, I mistook this for a vs NPC thing.

[Edens_Fall]

Wasn't an oversight, everything is as intended.

For clarification. . . . If a PC has 10 levels of Cavalier, how many hard ride skill points do they need to invest for the max AC now?

[Kenji]

For clarification. . . . If a PC has 10 levels of Cavalier, how many hard ride skill points do they need to invest for the max AC now?

18 hard ranks of Ride for a PC w/ 10 levels of Cavalier will achieve 28 hard ranks of Ride for bonus AC calculation. 28 divided by 7 is then 4.

The max AC bonus is automatically set to 4. If any character intends to take Cavalier levels, to optimize Ride AC they just need to put (28 - X Cav Level) amount of Ride.

[Edens_Fall]

Thank you!

[Kenji]

Next set of changes coming to cavalier:

Cavalier
========
Self-root changes:
* Root applies if the target is the same size as the cavalier and 2Handing a weapon that isn't Magic Staff
* Root applies if the target is larger than the cavalier and wielding a melee weapon that isn't Magic Staff
* Root duration is 3 seconds

Spirited Charge adjustment:
* Damage increased from a minimum of 20% to 30% and a maximum of 50% to 60%

[Edens_Fall]

Thank you Kenji!

[BurntGnome]

I really dont like the size requirements for the root, it just makes cav all the more annoying for most earthkin cavs, and then theres another extra second tacked on just to add on top of things.

[Kenji]

Please provide something more constructive than personal preference. Can you present any numbers, builds, comparisons, or mechanics of any kind as to why creature sizes shouldn't come into play for cavaliers other than "you don't like it"?

[xanrael]

I think the root being a discipline check with bonuses based on relative PC size and weapon choice would be more consistent with other special attack mechanics like disarm and knockdown.

As to what it is opposed by; whether attack, discipline, or something else I could see a few options for.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Please provide something more constructive than personal preference. Can you present any numbers, builds, comparisons, or mechanics of any kind as to why creature sizes shouldn't come into play for cavaliers other than "you don't like it"?

I think the player is clearly stating they think it is unfair that a small cavalier gets rooted again more things than a larger cavalier. If they have interpreted the mechanics wrong, then that's something to be discussed, not spreadsheets.


Thank-you for your contributions

[Kenji]

Please provide something more constructive than personal preference. Can you present any numbers, builds, comparisons, or mechanics of any kind as to why creature sizes shouldn't come into play for cavaliers other than "you don't like it"?

I think the player is clearly stating they think it is unfair that a small cavalier gets rooted again more things than a larger cavalier. If they have interpreted the mechanics wrong, then that's something to be discussed, not spreadsheets.


Thank-you for your contributions

Define unfair. I'm not trying to be contentious, but it is helpful for us all to have a very clearly defined language when it comes to mechanical discussions.

I think the root being a discipline check with bonuses based on relative PC size and weapon choice would be more consistent with other special attack mechanics like disarm and knockdown.

As to what it is opposed by; whether attack, discipline, or something else I could see a few options for.

It's worth considering making it as nuanced as the disarm and knockdown mechanics, where both the character and weapon sizes come into play. Given how the charge damage isn't as overt as it once was, we can also consider the discipline check for the root.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I been trying to confirm what the mechanics even are as wiki isn't up to date, but was unable to do so at this time as I run around on my phone.

It did sound condescending/dense on purpose, but I consider you to be a good natured person and appreciate all you do.

Sorry I can't provide something more constructive

[Shadowy Reality]

Small races do not seem optimal for Cavalier from the get go. The 1ab/ac they get for being Small is offset by the lack of Strength (for most small races) and the penalty they get to Discipline checks. They also have less base damage because they wield smaller weapons.

As it stands now, same Cavalier build in a small and medium race, the small race cavalier is getting rooted a lot more than the medium race cavalier, which is a pretty big difference. Being open to attacks for 3 seconds is a lot.

[xf1313]

If the idea is to discourage small races from taking the class, then the new root system works just fine.
Another hint is that you do not want to see player charge into things bigger than them.

More fireblog or Ogre cavalier is encouraged. A big no to hin and gnomes saying you are not made for this class.

That is what this change sounds like to me. Just to clarify, I do not think there is a particular problem with it..(just like no Ogre wizard is around, or is there?)

However if the class is intended for all races, then small riders should not suffer more than others.

Lastly, is it going to be for pvp only or root for pvp as well?

[Ork]

Firbolgs and ogres can't mount horses.

I'll add that after practicing with the root, the 3 seconds means that the cavalier will prefer to dismount to fight. A 3 second root means that your opponent can easily disengage and heal any of the charge damage inflicted or a general pause in combat that allows your opponent to reposition.

The 2handed stipulation is odd in that characters can change weapons at whim instantly and if they see the charge animation, experienced players may quickly equip a greatsword or some other 2hand weapon to trigger the root and give them an advantage. The root's intention might to be to provide a counterplay to the charge mechanic, but it inevitable dissuades the cavalier from using its core mechanic. I can't think of another class that does that.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

After having better chance to review information and think

I think a good trade off for small cavalier would be allowing them to mount in smaller/all spaces since their more easily rooted mount is medium sized and can fit and fight in 5 foot hallways. Yes wild animals factor. Hence a boon to small cavaliers and not just small riders.

[Kenji]

Hitboxes

With the update to ride, it's possible to ride vs a much larger range of PvE enemies than it was before. However, against some of the larger bosses, this is proving problematic. First, against enemies with a large hitbox, you will frequently find yourself being told that you are out of melee range with large targets, such as dragons, even when you are as close as it is possible to be. Second, on dismounting, you will retain your horse sized hitbox. This means that if you enter a boss room and get auto dismounted, you will probably be unable to fight if the boss is large (this last problem has been around for a while, it's just that you mostly never took horses to dungeons).

I'm unsure if this is something that can be resolved by increasing melee range while on a horse, and then properly resizing people to clear their horse hitbox when they dismount, but both things would be welcome.

A fix for this specific behavior is in the pipeline. Cavalier players, keep an eye out for your hitbox, attack distances, and melee interactions. Let me know if anything looks quirky or is still not functioning as intended in a few days.

[AstralUniverse]

A fix for this specific behavior is in the pipeline. Cavalier players, keep an eye out for your hitbox, attack distances, and melee interactions. Let me know if anything looks quirky or is still not functioning as intended in a few days.

Hallelujah that's awesome. and this is personally the biggest turn-off about horses in nwn for me right now so I'm so glad it's being addressed.

[Kenji]

Can any riders confirm if riding hitboxes have been fixed?

[A1RMAN]

Hey there. After many years playing Arelith, I've decided to try Ride and here are my impressions.

The first impression was very good, you get a cool-looking horse (Dreadsteed) and a speed boost, which is always welcome. I was enjoying the theme of a rider and was wondering why more people aren't using it. You get the speed, you get the theme, you get some small AC/AB bonuses.

But after getting more experience with it, I was starting to realize that there is a number of negative sides to it, that spoil all the impression.

Here are the main things:

• Forced dismounts in "small" areas.
• Forced dismounts every time you need to pick a lock or disable a trap.
• Mount animation is very sssllllooooouuuw.
• You cannot mount during the combat, which is counter-intuitive.
• If you aren't mounted during a combat, your horse often starts to run around like crazy and gets injured or killed. Even if you're controlling it with the Associate Tool.
• Speed bugs. You often get wrong calculations for your speed bonus when mounted. You also often retain the speed bonus after you've dismounted, which is somehow connected to the server change. So if you've noticed it, in order to not abuse the bug, you often have to go to an area where you are allowed to mount, summon a horse, mount, dismount, unsummon, go back where you wanted to be in the first place.
• If you don't have Cav levels, the Dreadsteed you're summoning only provides the 10% speed bonus, similar to a pack horse.

From the things mentioned above, the main issue for me is the constant need to dismount and mount back. To make things worse, if you've dismounted to pick a lock and you were riding an injured horse, the moment you dismount your horse automatically receives damage so its HP is where it should be. This puts you into combat state, that you should wait out before picking a lock.

So it's constant mount-move-dismount-wait-pick-mount-move-dismount. You can clearly feel that you're using a game mechanic. Which is clumsy and so slow that you start getting a feeling that you're just totally wasting your time with it.

All of this often leads to a strange behaviour, when you start ignoring traps and even treasure chests, just because you don't want to waste time on dismounting again.

I will try it our a little bit more, but I am really in a mood to give it up completely.

[Kenji]

I had intended to open up mounting to more areas (detailed in this thread), but there was a hiccup on the development administrative side.

The gist is that if we are to make mountability related to areas, we may as well develop a framework for areas. The vanilla engine's way of separating those areas is not enough for our intent with mounting.

If that were the case, we should also overhaul the whole mounting system on the development end.

This meant much more work than my original approach to making cavaliers a more fun PrC. Hence, nothing was done.

At this point, I can't do much, so the best we can do is wait until many development projects are complete and when other coders or I can dedicate time to this particular side of the project.

[A1RMAN]

Thank you for the reply. At least we know that things will be in their current state for a while.