Arelith

strong yeet wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:14 am

...

Couldn't have put it better.

I've never created a paladin and never will. Though, if I imagine myself playing one I think I'd enjoy the novelty of owning something akin to this ring. A symbol to bring some depth to my hypothetical character. From this standpoint, I'd vouch for the ring to remain largely unchanged. I believe the benefits of balance in downgrading the ring to be minor in comparison to the satisfaction of those who own one. Taking away people's enjoyment in the game, however slight, should be done with care.

Kaeldre wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:51 pm

I've never created a paladin and never will. Though, if I imagine myself playing one I think I'd enjoy the novelty of owning something akin to this ring. A symbol to bring some depth to my hypothetical character. From this standpoint, I'd vouch for the ring to remain largely unchanged. I believe the benefits of balance in downgrading the ring to be minor in comparison to the satisfaction of those who own one. Taking away people's enjoyment in the game, however slight, should be done with care.

What about the enjoyment of everyone else who doesn't get a free 26 SR 3stat UNI item?

Kaeldre wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:51 pm

I've never created a paladin and never will. Though, if I imagine myself playing one I think I'd enjoy the novelty of owning something akin to this ring. A symbol to bring some depth to my hypothetical character.

The ring can carry that symbolic value without conferring excessive mechanical bonuses. Your is an argument against removing the ring, not an argument against nerfing it.

Man, y'all really are up in arms about a ring? It's a ring. A 3 stat uni SR ring. Is that good? Hell yes. Is it broken? No. At best it adds an AC so that paladins don't have to use the sr helm.

Will definitely agree with cj & seven that these items and their mandatory tags are not a mechanic I much care about and hope we'll see less of them in the years to come.

Just for comparison's sake, any character can make a ring with 3 +1 stats, +2 disc, and +1 uni save. This ring adds +1 uni and +2 disc for being part of a faction (ignoring the spell resistance for now) which too me is fine. As far as the spell resistance goes, does 26 block the issacs? I don't think it does (but I have been wrong before!) and if that's the case then I don't see the sr as being anything but a minor bonus to the classes that can use this ring anyways.

Maybe its too good for an item that you get for "free", but if its free that just might mean that the faction needs more standards that need to be upheld by characters with consequences for failing in that.

Nitro wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:21 am

Kaeldre wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:51 pm

I've never created a paladin and never will. Though, if I imagine myself playing one I think I'd enjoy the novelty of owning something akin to this ring. A symbol to bring some depth to my hypothetical character. From this standpoint, I'd vouch for the ring to remain largely unchanged. I believe the benefits of balance in downgrading the ring to be minor in comparison to the satisfaction of those who own one. Taking away people's enjoyment in the game, however slight, should be done with care.

What about the enjoyment of everyone else who doesn't get a free 26 SR 3stat UNI item?

A good question. It raises the issue of fairness. I can only speak for myself and I do not think that my enjoyment in playing on Arelith is derived from knowing that everything is fair. In fact, in a broader sense I enjoy that Arelith isn't fair. Almost everyone has unfair advantages over others mechanically. That keeps the game dynamic, which is fun. From that perspective, I think this small imbalance is tolerable if it means others will enjoy their time better.

Dr. B wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:24 am

Kaeldre wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:51 pm

I've never created a paladin and never will. Though, if I imagine myself playing one I think I'd enjoy the novelty of owning something akin to this ring. A symbol to bring some depth to my hypothetical character.

The ring can carry that symbolic value without conferring excessive mechanical bonuses. Your is an argument against removing the ring, not an argument against nerfing it.

True, there is no necessity for the ring to carry any mechanical bonuses. However, I would argue that a ring without those bonuses would loose its sense of novelty. It would no longer be mechanically unique and loose the sense of fleeting amusement associated with it. While a purely symbolic ring can instill enjoyment, I find it far less so than its current counterpart.

It would no longer be mechanically unique and loose the sense of fleeting amusement associated with it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If by "mechanically unique" you just mean it has a combination of properties that no other item has, that too can be preserved even in the presence of a nerf.

I find it implausible that a person's sense of pride and satisfaction in their character's in-game accomplishments would suddenly be destroyed if the ring's SR were nerfed from 26 to 16, or whatever. That would be very silly. More likely this person would be upset because their character is mechanically weaker than they were before. I certainly would not be surprised if that person tried to argue along the lines you are that the ring should be unnerfed. "I lost my 26 SR! I can no longer feel immersed in my character! None of my character's accomplishment matter anymore! My character is dead to me! Waaah!" We see arguments to that effect on the forums rather frequently. Sometimes they're sincere, sometimes they're disingenuous. I think in this case it would be the latter.

Dr. B wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:21 am

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If by "mechanically unique" you just mean it has a combination of properties that no other item has, that too can be preserved even in the presence of a nerf.

Yes, that is what I mean by mechanically unique. You are right that it can be preserved, even if it is nerfed. At that point, we are talking about small scale changes that I think are inconsequential. In other words, I dont have an opinion on it.

Dr. B wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:21 am

I find it implausible that a person's sense of pride and satisfaction in their character's in-game accomplishments would suddenly be destroyed if the ring's SR were nerfed from 26 to 16, or whatever. That would be very silly.

I agree, that would be silly.

Dr. B wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:21 am

More likely this person would be upset because their character is mechanically weaker than they were before. I certainly would not be surprised if that person tried to argue along the lines you are that the ring should be unnerfed. "I lost my 26 SR! I can no longer feel immersed in my character! None of my character's accomplishment matter anymore! My character is dead to me! Waaah!" We see arguments to that effect on the forums rather frequently. Sometimes they're sincere, sometimes they're disingenuous. I think in this case it would be the latter.

Again, I agree with you. The scenario you outline does not give a good basis for refuting such a change. Nor does it accurately portray my stance on the subject. I've simply stated that the benefit of a nerf in terms of balance is minor in comparison to the discontent it might cause. Therefore, I see little reason to make the change in the first place.

Finally, as you might have noticed my stance shifts depending on the severity of the downgrade. If it is a small change, like the one you described, then I hold no opinion. If it isn't, then I stand by my point.

It's just a ring at the end of the day. Yeah it is a bit OP for a class that gets free +5 swords (not a salty BG or anything), but other classes also get "something" that is a bit OP on their own way.

Remember what the boss man said awhile ago, I'd expect on occasion to "find" something awesome in our travels the might surpass it. Granted the difference is we have to look and they get it for free.

Scylon wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:41 am

It's just a ring at the end of the day.

Ork wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 am

Man, y'all really are up in arms about a ring?

I wonder if this line of argument would have worked for Boromir. "It's just stupid a ring, Frodo. Stop hogging it."

Ork wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 am

Will definitely agree with cj & seven that these items and their mandatory tags are not a mechanic I much care about and hope we'll see less of them in the years to come.

And that is exactly what the fuss is about. The idea behind it, and the problems it will cause if the amount of faction-specific boons and tags like these keeps increasing. Not necessarily the specific item itself (although it is more than just that effective +1 AC, for reasons I stated earlier in this thread, but anyway).

A ring is just a ring. And a beast belt is just a beast belt. If they were unique, meaning only one character on the entire server had one, for a total of two characters possessing such a powerful item? Then, sure, it would be fine, negligible. But there are many RH characters, and there are many evil/monster characters. So there are a lot of characters with an OP item out there currently, but also? A lot of characters without one. That's not a good thing. And no, it is not compensated by giving every other faction or alignment or race on Arelith access to a restricted, unique, mechanically OP item in turn. That creates variance, and will only further disrupt the server's mechanical balance (because all of these items will be mechanically different from each other).

Put briefly, faction-, race- or alignment-specific "boons" should not provide mechanical advantage.

the grim yeeter wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:58 pm

Put briefly, faction-, race- or alignment-specific "boons" should not provide mechanical advantage.

I agree with this statement completely. I really like the idea of faction specific notifications in a players description. It makes the individual story of each character more engaging and thought provoking to the players around him, and stands as evidence of the story he or she created in game.

However, the Radiant Heart ring below is Ridiculously Powerful for one very specific reason. It is, unquestionably, the best-in-slot, always wear item for a tremendous variety of classes and builds. No other item in all of Arelith, including the 'Beast Belt', provides such versatility with no trade off.

the Radiant Heart Member Ring is:
+4 Discipline
AND FOUR OF:
26 Spell Resistance
+1 any Stat
+2 universal saves
+4 spot/listen
+4 hide/ms
+4 Concentration/SC

Trade-offs:

Sure, the Rogue's Cunning Armor is powerful with it's 26 SR. However, Rogue's don't use it as armor, because they prefer to have hide and move silently skills boosted in most cases, but if they do not, there is a trade off. The 26 SR Helmet is another example of how items are designed in Arelith. You make a trade-off, trading the increased armor and damage reduction from an Adamantine Helmet for Spell Resistance when you need it. Without this, all spells and traps that can't pierce 26 SR become completely useless to some of the most mechanically proficient and save boosted classes in all of Arelith.

Another very important trade-off to maintain server balance is Universal Saves boosting items. When a player chooses a +2 Universal Saves Ring to wear, they are trading off a significant amount of customization for increased saves for their character. If every character got a ring with this attribute with no trade off, then all it will achieve is significantly weakening all spells and abilities with DC based saves who act in opposition to the Radiant Heart Guild.

Lastly, the increased skills provided by this item is something most players in this thread have not mentioned much of. However, there is no other item in game that provides so many crucial class skills on a single item. You could theoretically have a Ring with: +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently, +4 Spot, +4 Listen, +4 Concentration, +4 Spellcraft, +4 Discipline, & +2 Universal Saves. Players who rely on Hide/Move Silently, Bluff, or the ability to interrupt a spellcast with a melee attack all of a sudden now need to reach skill levels 4 points higher to use their abilities against characters wearing these rings, and the ring-bearers need no trade-off to do so.

Without a trade-off, this ring - and any future best-in-slot benefits from other new NPC factions will cause a creeping increase in player power throughout the game, which, in my opinion, is not a good thing.

Wait, if the spell resistance is one of the 4 choices I misunderstood the powerlevel in my first post. Its in fact weaker then I thought it was (though still really good of course) and really it's not that big of a deal. As I mentioned in that post, anyone can craft a +1 for three stats, add a uni save, and +2 disc. So this nets a grand total of an extra uni save and 2 disc. Nice, but compared to an item that gives you +3 strength and other bonuses, yeah....I take the belt every time given a straight up choice.

Can you explain how everyone can craft a +1/3 stat, +1 uni, +2 disc ring?

i just can't get worked up about this. i've been reading along, and yeah, the ring is powerful. it may be the most powerful ring in the game. and all you have to do is be a paladin to get it (i guess).

but i just don't see a problem. as an item, it's powerful, but overall? so a character might have an extra +1 in another stat, or SR26 (which is significant in low/mid levels, but kinda meh later on). it's slightly stronger than a ring you can make with in the basin and runes, but it's just not... an issue, i guess. or not to me. i'll go back to reading along now

Curve wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:35 pm

Can you explain how everyone can craft a +1/3 stat, +1 uni, +2 disc ring?

You can't.

Curve wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:35 pm

Can you explain how everyone can craft a +1/3 stat, +1 uni, +2 disc ring?

Through enchanting. Add disc, then the first two stats, 5% the third, add a masterworked bejeweled rune and slap on the uni. Its an expensive process (or requires you to have a gang to travel with in the epics so you can get that runic stuff yourself) for sure, but generally even my short lived characters have one or two items like this. A year and you probably have a full set (assuming you gather gold at a reasonable pace, some can likely do it much faster).



**edited because I think the top end rune is masterworked not greater

Curve wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:35 pm

Can you explain how everyone can craft a +1/3 stat, +1 uni, +2 disc ring?

+2 disc +1 to each of the three stats then masterwork rune +1 uni

generally you find the item as +2 disc +1 stat +1 stat runic, in the wild, enchant it for your 3rd stat, and then T3 rune it for the final tristat +1 uni +2 disc

You can't.

so this is wrong, considering my last PC had 6 items like that lol

The significance of this ring is mechanical precedent.

It's not the mechanical power.

What if a group of non-Radiant Heart paladins become the "new thing" on the server for a month or two? They don't get access to this ring (to my knowledge), so they're going to be at odds with this pre-existing paladin group (which could have whack players and whack RP).

You need to be alarmed not because of 26 SR, but because we're creating OOC incentives to shoehorn roleplay along particular lines and boundaries.

It's fundamentally no different than the Mythal.

Or human Outcasts ach waily waily.

Really, it's not. It hits at precisely the same point of concern. It's just under the guise of something that 'looks' less controversial - but paladin vs paladin conflict is some of the richest RP I've ever partaken in. Seeing any kind of in-game faction propped up with items does not bode well.

This is not a paladin-specific ring. This is a faction-specific ring. Factions are supposed to be roleplay-created, not mechanics-driven.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:24 am

The significance of this ring is mechanical precedent.

It's not the mechanical power.

What if a group of non-Radiant Heart paladins become the "new thing" on the server for a month or two? They don't get access to this ring (to my knowledge), so they're going to be at odds with this pre-existing paladin group (which could have whack players and whack RP).

You need to be alarmed not because of 26 SR, but because we're creating OOC incentives to shoehorn roleplay along particular lines and boundaries.

It's fundamentally no different than the Mythal.

Or human Outcasts ach waily waily.

Really, it's not. It hits at precisely the same point of concern. It's just under the guise of something that 'looks' less controversial - but paladin vs paladin conflict is some of the richest RP I've ever partaken in. Seeing any kind of in-game faction propped up with items does not bode well.

This is not a paladin-specific ring. This is a faction-specific ring. Factions are supposed to be roleplay-created, not mechanics-driven.

I'm not going to say you are wrong, because really its just a matter of opinion based on whether or not you think every faction should be organic and grow from player activity. But the reality is that factions like the RH, or becoming a pirate, or even being an elf in Myon (for all the flaws of the city) gives those players that don't just get involved with big player factions as easily as others an avenue to get involved with the server story. In theory, a faction like the RH actually bridges the worlds between those that excel at arelith and all it offers and those that are just figuring out how to get their feet wet. From a game design perspective, that's exactly what you want. So sure, to use your example of a group of paladins that are all tier one rpers, they might be the next best thing since sliced bread to show up on the server from a superficial perspective. But if you ask me who is more important to the overall health of the server both now and going forward, the group of elite players who made all sorts of huge splashes in their time playing or the one or two elite players that helped a bunch of newbies grow into the next generation of elite rpers, I'm going to call the latter the heroes every time. I'm not saying that can't be accomplished in a player faction, it probably happens quite often as people on arelith I find are generally willing to help other players grow every chance they get. But I will say that factions like the RH help the newer player take that first step of getting involved in something.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:24 am

What if a group of non-Radiant Heart paladins become the "new thing" on the server for a month or two? They don't get access to this ring (to my knowledge), so they're going to be at odds with this pre-existing paladin group (which could have whack players and whack RP).

You need to be alarmed not because of 26 SR, but because we're creating OOC incentives to shoehorn roleplay along particular lines and boundaries.

If there is one thing I have learned about rp'ers - it is that boundaries make them more creative - not less. Inter-faction friction, disagreements and ambition fosters a ton of RP. Sure, one goal is the same - eradicating evil where it is, but they do not share gods, motivations nor methods as to how to go about it. The larger the faction, the easier for these kinds of things to happen.

Since you have to wear the ring for it to work, that alone fosters RP, limitations and boundaries since other characters will treat you differently from the one not wearing the ring. They will -know- you are bound by at least one oath and can leverage/exploit that.

So there are ways for other characters to gain items like this, for example, befriending your local red wizard and bringing a cart full of gold.

It is possible to make rings with the basin like:
+5 skill
+5 skill
+1 Stat
+1 Stat
+1 Stat

Unfortunately the Enchantment basin can not replicate the 24 Spell resistance which I think is extremely excessive (basin can only do 10SR).

This should come down to around 18SR, still special but not overpowered OR just changed it to a once per day casting of Spell Resistance at 12th level (= 24SR), this the does not take away the SR, just it’s permanent effect.

Gillesbreton wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:29 am

So there are ways for other characters to gain items like this, for example, befriending your local red wizard and bringing a cart full of gold.

It is possible to make rings with the basin like:
+5 skill
+5 skill
+1 Stat
+1 Stat
+1 Stat

Unfortunately the Enchantment basin can not replicate the 24 Spell resistance which I think is extremely excessive (basin can only do 10SR).

This should come down to around 18SR, still special but not overpowered OR just changed it to a once per day casting of Spell Resistance at 12th level (= 24SR), this the does not take away the SR, just it’s permanent effect.

wrong, you can only add +2 to a skill from the basin. there's a handful of +5 skill rings for, say, lore, but not for a majority of skills. also, you'd be relying on, i think, multiple hard 5%s at that point, which is untenable and not fit for discussion in balancing these OP items.

Kuma wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:08 pm

Gillesbreton wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:29 am

So there are ways for other characters to gain items like this, for example, befriending your local red wizard and bringing a cart full of gold.

It is possible to make rings with the basin like:
+5 skill
+5 skill
+1 Stat
+1 Stat
+1 Stat

Unfortunately the Enchantment basin can not replicate the 24 Spell resistance which I think is extremely excessive (basin can only do 10SR).

This should come down to around 18SR, still special but not overpowered OR just changed it to a once per day casting of Spell Resistance at 12th level (= 24SR), this the does not take away the SR, just it’s permanent effect.

wrong, you can only add +2 to a skill from the basin. there's a handful of +5 skill rings for, say, lore, but not for a majority of skills. also, you'd be relying on, i think, multiple hard 5%s at that point, which is untenable and not fit for discussion in balancing these OP items.

Well, its only one ring, so its only one 5%. Admittedly if you bought everything you needed to make that ring at your usual market value it would be an average of 400k-ish to 5% (could be less, could be more, pray to the rgn) and another mil for the runic stuff, so there is a real debate on whether or not the ring is too good to be gotten for free. A good adventuring group would get you the stuff you need eventually however, drastically reducing that cost, so there are two sides to that discussion as well. My only point was the ring was not that much more powerful then something people could craft, I think whether or not getting something of that value for free is a more pertinent conversation. I fall in the camp of "Its one item, its for joining a faction, hopefully they do something cool in their time with the RH", but I can see the other side of that discussion as well.