Mage BAB

[CragOrion]

- Following further review, and in line with our previous commitment to offer mages additional sustained-commitment cookies in the form of more spell focus bonus spells, we have reverted mages' BAB progression to 1/2 levels. We feel this direction will allow us to further develop standard mages into the sustained magic role, while also leaving the possibility of a spellsword path or focus open for the future.

Why do you give me neat things and then take them away?

I'd really like to see this spellsword path developed, its basically what my truflame is supposed to be

[Purplemyst]

I'm really gutted about this change as well, the recent change has rendered my new character pretty much useless as she was a spell sword.

Hopefully they make a neat path soon.

[Kirito]

I understand why it had to go, limiting design space etc.

But it could have waited until the new paths had been done . Then those who already used the bonus BAB for spellswords could have just taken the new path via a trainer whilst those that didn't lost out again (but weren't using it in the first place so no r3al difference )

[Cutie Riot]

I just wish the previous update came with a warning. I wouldn't of wasted a greater reward and countless hours on a toon.I definitely see why it was reverted though. #grandfathermepls

[Tetra]

(nm)

[Astral]

Your spellswords would be really weak even with 3/4 bab. Lets wait for more updates on the matter

[Kirito]

Your spellswords would be really weak even with 3/4 bab. Lets wait for more updates on the matter

Meh, 60ac and 40ish AB isn't too shabby (now it's 35ish AB with the changes )

It might not be optimal, and it might "only" have 3 APR, buthe it has played well so far (up to levep 14)

[Hatsune Miku]

Got to amuse myself by beating stuff up with a magic staff as an Sorc/RDD with the extra APR.
Guess its back to being crippled by my own shadows again. Snuggle a Bugbear AI.

[yellowcateyes]

I totally appreciate that the devs are trying to add life to an old game but haphazardly adding and taking away mechanics like this can really screw people up.

The process could really use some work.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'm pretty sure I made a forum post about the need for transparency when it comes to design and gameplay updates that directly impact player builds.

But again, welcome to the land of confusion. The Dev who made the announcement about the Mage BAB still says they are a Fixed Level Dev. If that's the case, what was the actual decision making process behind the change (because a Contributor has vocally disagreed with it)? Secondly, why was the change reverted so quickly?

Like, if a Dev or Contributor wants to tell me to shut up because I'm asking for too much, that's fine. I'll at least understand, but this continual ad hoc method with no clear delineation of authority is confusing. Like people say it's irongron but none of these recent gameplay changes have been by their post, it's been by Mith. So does that mean irongron approved them or did like Mith just go "yeah we're doing this because I have a green forum tag." And if so, why aren't Contributor told to shut up about it and not post visible dissent and annoyance (no offense to Contributors)?

I know this is a game, everyone's a volunteer, etc. but like am I the only one on the island who thinks this is convoluted and annoying?

Again, I'll point to Overwatch. You know Jeff Kaplan gives the uodates. you know he speaks for his team, but addresses the arguments within the team. But you know when things are coming down the pipe because of their Public Test server etc.

I apologise if I have come across too crass, it's not my intent to insult, but I just think it's a very visible, and a very frustrating, thing to watch.

And the answer can't be a reverse in transparency either. That's like 2008.

[Peppermint]

I can answer part of that:

I was out of line in posting visible dissent on the forum. I did so because I felt the change ran counter to our previous design philosophy (and as a consequence, sidelined a planned project, i.e. the expansion of spell focus perks). However, the correct approach would have been for me to approach the team about this privately, rather than raise my concerns in a public forum.

For that, I apologize. You're right; that was unprofessional of me.

[Irongron]

Often when new classes are introduced there is always a process of changes in the following days and weeks, and I always defend our volunteer staff who, after all, are trying only to make the game more enjoyable. We really are profoundly lucky to have such an active team here at Arelith.

The more updates we have the more times this can happen, and as with the playerbase in general the team can hold different opinions. Few things are 'wrong' or 'right' objectively, and from time to time I can okay changes that are ultimately the wrong call.

In this particular case though I think the inconvenience caused to players by this reversal is significant, especially as some may have spent rewards on characters designed with this in mind, and as such I believe an apology from myself is in order.

So, I am sorry about this. I don't think it is the end of the world, and I remain very satisfied with just what we're doing here. Neither do I think some grand change in policy is necessary. It was likely better that this was reversed sooner rather than later, though I am well aware how it looks.

Still on my holiday here, and typing all this from a device with shoddy connection, but having read this I felt I was obliged to reply!

2 more weeks and its back to the Arelith grindstone, and as alway I hope the good outweighs the bad with what is to come, and I'll do my utmost to avoid such instances of creative indecision in future.

[Ebonstar]

I know this will probably get a ton of backlash for saying it, but how about we stop planning a character to level 30 before they are level 4

let your characters evolve as the Rp takes them from your initial concept and then you wont have to worry about something like this.

Im sure alot of people have thought about this but then did the but i have a plan so i cant do what would possibly make sense to whats happening to my character.

[Irongron]

I really admire that approach when I see it. For myself it is generally more a 50/50 thing. I don't tend to make characters with a build plan, rather it's normally based on a concept I'd like to rp. Two of my main pcs in the past were pure class, ranger and fighter, before either class was improved. I enjoyed the challenge of limitation and didn't lose any sleep over the lack of umd and tumble. Nevertheless i do plan the build somewhat, though almost always divert from it when the rp takes me in another direction. For some though the plan is part of the fun and I do respect that.

[Tetra]

(nm)

[CragOrion]

But hopefully if someone did use a reward and wanted to restart their character or delete and get a refund there will be some way to do that.

That does only sound fair

[Dunshine]

I can answer the transparancy question (and why things get confusing every now then).

The way we work as admins, is that we run big decisions by each other, so we reach concensus before we okay an update. For small stuff we don't do this though, because we feel that's not necessary and will only make the decision making process very cumbersome and slow. And ofcourse there is this grey area in between, where it becomes tricky.

Sometimes one of us thinks lightly about certain updates and okays them without consulting the others, or two of the three admins decide an update is significant but not important enough to wait for admin number 3's opinion, and go ahead. We're all normal people and judge these things to the best of our abilities, and sometimes you misjudge and it turns out your fellow admins feel stronger about a subject then you would have expected them to.
As a simple example here, I okay-ed a major award without consulting the others a while ago, because I didn't thought much of it, but the others had a totally different opinion and therefor I had to revert the decision. Which comes across very unprofessionally and confusing, I admit. And most importantly it's very disappointing for a player to get approval for something, and having it taken away again. Which is the thing I regret most in this example.

Unfortunately, that happens. We choose to work this way because we're doing this as a hobby, not a job and we're rather spend time on making nice new toys, then by micro-managing every decision and update being made. We do have the best intentions but sometimes we make mistakes, either by misjudging before or by reflection after seeing how an update is working out. Player feedback is very important to us.

So, hope this gives you the transparancy you're looking for and you understand why things get confusing and look unprofessional sometimes.

To answer the last question in this thread, people that spent an award on a build based on this BAB change can PM the Admin Team to get the reward restored. You'll have to delete the current character first, and include the character- and playername in the PM. This character ofcourse has to be created after the BAB update was introduced.

[Seekeepeek]

i don't think "your doing it wrong posts are okay..." if people want to plan their toons from lvl 1 to 30 then it's not up to you to change if they are having fun with it. it's like telling a perfectionist to chill down about the details.. it rarely help.

A suggestion thought:
Don't you have an internal forum for devs and admins?
Can do something as simple as to post the suggested update in it 3 days before it goes in.
not sure if you can add a timer on a topic before it's locked, but that would be neat.
when 3 days is up it goes in no matter what.
should give the other devs time to give short inputs.

Personally the most mad an update made me.. was when i rolled Chikasha my lvl 30 gnoll just after the update that allowed you to win a greater reward. less then a month later the the 5% system was updated again to allow +5% in the roll by 200k x 5 gold. if i had rolled Chikasha then i would get a 10% chance rather then the 5% chance i had less then a month ago.

hence i lost faith in the 5% system, and don't plan to roll ever again. lol

[Liareth]

As a team, we're driven by inspiration. We feel inspired and excited to make a change, and so we work in short spurts to implement what we're excited about. We work on a feature, make sure it works, and then it's done and really we want to get it out as quickly as we can so people can start playing with it, because that's the really rewarding part of it all - there's no better feeling than to see players interacting with your creation and enjoying it.

We experimented in the past with having a 'feature design subforum'. The idea being that any changes which had a mechanical impact should be posted there first for review before they went live. Developers weren't keen to adopt this idea because it added a significant hurdle to their work, and often it would devolve into bikeshedding about inane and irrelevant facets of the change which completely killed inspiration.

Then we experimented with a 'balance group', where a number of players were invited into a private forum to offer feedback on changes before they went live. We encountered two problems with this. One, developers were unhappy with players holding authority over what changes went live, and two, the requirement to post in that forum was optional, as was the requirement to follow that feedback, which ultimately rendered the group (mostly) useless.

We've moved away from the idea of these two forums, though the feature design forum does still exist and we encourage its use.

Now we have a vague concept of a 'mechanical lead' - e.g. me. The idea is that any important mechanical changes should be run by me first. I don't hold the same interest in mechanics as Peppermint does, nor am I as experienced in that area, but I can generally spot bad things before they happen and I can filter them out.

In the case of 1) Feylock changes (before I fixed them), 2) PDK balance, and 3) mage BAB changes, ultimately it was my responsibility and thus my failure that they went live in their original state.

Change 1) went live because I rejoined the team on the same evening, and the change had already received approval from the other three admins, so I offered some minor feedback (which was actioned) and assumed the rest of the change was okay. I should have spent more time inspecting the change before I approved it. This is why I felt responsibility to fix the class shortly after the original developer left the team, and why the minor quibbles in the feylock feedback thread made me so stressed (this isn't MY mess yet I have to clean it up!) and eventually why the thread ended up locked after I unfairly let my frustrations out.

Change 2) and change 3) went through because I was very busy at the time and hadn't found the time to sit down and scrutinise about the changes, so I gave Mithreas the go-ahead.

Change 2) also received significant feedback from the balance group (when it still existed) - feedback which wasn't actioned. I don't blame Mithreas for this because sometimes it's very difficult to tell when somebody is debating about minor trivial opinions versus balance shattering truths, and I doubt he wanted to spend his limited time debating the finer points of game balance anyway. It was my responsibility to read over the changes in detail and say 'no' and then propose fixes. On that note, Peppermint and I are working hard to balance the path, and we will be making some changes in the near future.

Change 3) shouldn't have gone through. Irongron and I were ambivalent, and Dunshine wasn't a fan of the change. At the time Dunshine was busy and there was a miscommunication which led me to believe that the other two admins were fully aware of the proposed changes and were okay with them.

Again, I'll point to Overwatch. You know Jeff Kaplan gives the uodates. you know he speaks for his team, but addresses the arguments within the team. But you know when things are coming down the pipe because of their Public Test server etc.

Jeff Kaplan also has access to a team of hundreds (thousands?) of QA employees who are paid to test his game, and the resources to create and maintain a Public Test Server through which all changes flow for weeks or sometimes even months before they hit the live servers. Even in these massive, well-funded, AAA projects, broken or silly changes regularly hit the PTR and are later changed or reverted.

I think it would be wonderful if we had a PTR and a fantastic transparent change process and all of great stuff. Thing is - we aren't a massive AAA project. None of us are paid for our time. I don't think anyone has any motivation to set up and maintain a PTR, and that point presumes we have the time in the fisrt place to manage such a thing properly, even if we did have the motivation.

It might be better for your sanity if you consider Arelith to be -the- PTR. Sometimes we'll make mistakes and then we'll correct those mistakes when we have to. It sucks when players get caught in the crossfire, and whenever possible we're trying to mitigate that, now more than ever - see the relevel system we implemented and how they were distributed to feylocks as proof of that.

So lots of words to say this: we're doing the best we can with what we have.

[Mithreas]

For the record, Noxt was actually the admin champion of the mage BAB change (it was his idea, even!) so it was approved to go live with PDK prior to him stepping back from the team.

[Miaou]

I wish to quickly applaud Irongron, Scholar Midnight, and Dunshine for how professional you all took this feedback, and I love how you explained it clearly with very little room for misunderstanding. It is very warming to see a communication like this happening from you guys, and explanations like this are really helpful for calming people's nerves. In addition, Peppermint pointed out his own mistake and apologized for it which in it's own right was professional and nice. I completely agree that mistakes happen, that this is a small team of volunteers who wish to make their own projects, and it's wonderful that you take the time to talk and explain these projects to us.

I do, however, have a question if I may ask for a bit of clarity. How are contributors handled in the hierarchy of additions? People such as Peppermint, Septire, and Mithreas? Do all additions by them need to be approved by the admins? Can anyone simply put forward something they wish to give to the Arelith server?

[Dunshine]

In principle everything has to run past the admins first. But for instance a bugfix is a no brainer and could usually be updated by them without contacting us first.

And as said, if the proposed change is minor or doesn't impact the entire server, we're not going through the entire process of contacting everyone to see what they think. If they find one of us admins online and get the okay, they can go ahead with the change.

[Seekeepeek]

Cool, cool, keep up the good work. it's appreciated you take the time to explain. ^^

I guess i just need to adjust to this kinda view, and give updates some time/months rather then picking up the pickaxes and head for a gold rush.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Thank you Peppermint, Scholar Midnight, irongron, and Sunshine for you responses. I really appreciate the time you took to give a comprehensive insight into the process and the recent updates.

I think some of that information on the process should be pinned and posted so the community can refer to it in the future as to why future updated that give controversy. I also just think it's really insightful information.

So thank you. And I think members of the community would happily assist manners of QA or whatever (and clearly have in the past with those 2 subforums!)

You do great work. And I'm all the more appreciative when we see these kinds of posts because you get a much clearer understanding of how Arelith works behind the scenes. It really is such an awesome thing.

[StoneBreaker]

By the way this did effect me too as well since I was making a sword mage. It would be awesome as a wizard path. Im not sure what Im going to do with my current sword mage, but I cant let her disapear. is there any swordmage stuff in the works?