Regarding the Recent Druid Changes

[Wytchee]

Are you seriously saying raven totem is good because you can get persuade?

N-no? That not at all what I said. I said it was useful to ME because the extra skillpoint lets me dip into persuade. Raven totem is good because it gives you a free epic feat in the form of +10 lore (not to mention +8 listen, which may be useless for you, not necessarily for others) AND an extra skillpoint/level, meaning that if you want to fill out your skill points, you don't need to invest so much in intelligence. If you're building a lore-based character, like I am, raven totem is both mechanically and thematically appropriate.

Totem forms could do with some beneficial changes, but stripping them out entirely seems a bit much; they can be changed in a way that fosters thematic roleplay without either overpowering or crippling a character, and in a way that doesn't say "hey, if you don't choose x totem or any totem at all, you won't be as good/powerful as you could be!"

At any rate, this seems a strange hill to die on.

[Renewable HP is likely a bug from saving characters which should be fixed. (Else you end up with infinite hp which is silly)

It's an "issue" with all polymorphs and yeah, needs to be fixed.

Totems are terrible, in and out of shapes. A cool RP path, maybe, but - they are the kensai of the caster world.

Not at all an apt comparison. Totem druids can drink potions and dip for UMD. Kensai cannot. The disadvantage of going Kensai on Arelith is far more critical than the stat hit to totem druids, which itself can still be seen as crippling, but in no way to the same extent as Kensai.

The attunements seem exceptionally good. I mean, for starters, I don't see anyone picking anything other than earth (Unless they're PvE'ing, when they choose air) and that covers your entire weakness. Should pure druids receive a cookie? Sure. Should the cookie be super-powerful and cover all the weaknesses of a class? Likely, not. Right?

Again, I was brainstorming. I literally said so in the final sentence of that post. They are likely too powerful; though something similar but less dramatic could be implemented.

Please take the entirety of my posts into consideration before responding.

[One Two Three Five]

No, I more meant shifting in and out of -polymorph.

[caldura firebourne]

Where are these changes listed..?

http://wiki.arelith.com/Druid#Totem_animal

[Wytchee]

Again, brainstorming here (mostly for fun), so set aside concerns about balance, for now:

No Totem (Balance Druid) 'Spell Focus: Transmutation' as a feat
Bat (Sonic Hearing) +10 listen, 'Alertness' as a feat
Bear (Steadfast) +10 discipline
Eagle (Bird of Prey) +10 spot
Wolf (Pack Mentality) +10 Animal Empathy
Panther (Stalker) +10 move silently
Spider (Web Spinner) +10 Set Trap
Raven (Loremaster) +10 Lore
Rat (Filth Affinity) Immunity to Disease
Parrot (Performance Artist) - +8 bluff, +8 persuade
Snake (Ambush Predator) +10 hide

Everyone gets a bonus, but Totem Druids miss out on a free feat in the form of Spell Focus: Transmutation, making non-totem druids the go-to choice for druids wanting to focus on their casting abilities.

[One Two Three Five]

The auto-fail thing is almost certainly a hell of a lot of work. Maybe give regular druids, idk, thousand faces and some elemental shape buffs. That way totems are still 'losing' something in comparison.

[Wytchee]

The auto-fail thing is almost certainly a hell of a lot of work. Maybe give regular druids, idk, thousand faces and some elemental shape buffs. That way totems are still 'losing' something in comparison.

What about non-totem druids get Spell Focus: Transmutation as a feat?

[Sockss]

I thought we were talking about mechanics in this thread?

Not pseudo-rp mechanics?

Because druids do a fine job of having the tools to roleplay themselves as druids, without adding anything.

Or are we just blurring the lines between them where appropriate?

Totems from a mechanical non-rp aspect are bad.

Totems for if you want to roleplay a bat, or take persuade, or lore are fine. They are still not mechanically viable.

Kensai is a dip in strength.
Totem form on anything other than a dragonshaper is a dip in strength.
Hence the comparison.

Is there a point to brainstorming in the feedback forums if you don't want feedback?

[Jagel]

Since this has turned into a regular druid evaluation and brainstorm I'll my two cents. I've played several druids, one to lvl 30, one is around lvl 20 and I've started a few druid characters that are shelved for the time being. Druid (alon with ranger) is probably my favourite class.

Seven identified one of the core problems with the class: what the hells is the class supposed to excel at? What's the focus?

The class is a good addition to any party in PVE: it's an above average healer (plenty of spells, restoration and disease/poison removal), a good buff class (barkskin, stoneskin, protection from spells, FoM etc.) it's got damage spells (some of which have been buffed), it's got plenty disabling spells too and the class has access to a fair range of death spells. A druid can even fill the role of an average tank and can supply the party with aid from summons and animal companion. It doesn't, however, excel in any of these fields which is where Seven's pin-pointed problem becomes evident. It is also because of this a druid is usually going to be very "meh" in pvp.

As has also been pointed out: the class has plenty staying power in PVE and is fairly easy to lvl if you go for medium xp instead of high risk/high xp rewards. The class really drops off in the late lvl game up until obtaining DS (which is circumstantially very powerful but also "doors").

For me this problematic core is also what makes the class fun and why I keep thinking up new druid characters: it's a very versatile class both in terms possible rp-concepts of mechanics. This discussion seems to be mainly about mechanics so I've stuck to that. I will emphasize that giving the druid one or two viable mechanic paths will make it easier to tweak the class in ways that makes it more viable. I'd just hate if this mechanical tweak or buff were to limit the versatality of the class and that's a real risk. You really can't have it all.

I think the proposed "aspect" idea is very interesting. The main issue is giving the druid powers that scale well in the later lvls.

Possible avenues of tweaking:
- Spells that increase in power after lvl 20
- Druid specific gear designed for wildshaping. Is there a way to script bonuses that only apply when wildshaped?
- Rescripting the way items merge
- Make "Nature Sense" grant additional bonuses as the druid lvls: starting with +2 ab in natural environments it could go on to add more ab, more dmg, skill bonuses, resistances, immunities etc. in natural environments
- Tweaking the various shapes to be more useful in Areltih's environment

Totems:
My lvl 30 druid is a totem and while the totem path enhanced his rp I'll say that the totem shape was increadibly useful in terms of increasing durability and tankiness in the 10-20 lvl range. After that strong summons, shapechange spell and elemental shapes seemed better choices mechanically because of special abilities like innate dr, greater damage and immunity crit/sneak, mind etc.

I love the totem concept but I'd say mechanically enhancing the shapechange/summon aspects and weakening casting prowess might be the way to go. Right now your best bet when going totem is buffing wisdom to high hells and try to compensate the physical penalties via spells/eq. You get a caster character with a glorified panic button as some have correctly called it. High wis also nets you DS.

Possible tweaks instead of the -4 to physical stats (pick and choose)
Penalties:
- totems do not recieve the Arelith specific extra spell slots
- totems recieve a -2 to wisdom
- totems recieve a penalty to animal empathy. Against creatures of their totem subtype, they recieve a bonus and the ability to turn (one or two) animals to henchmen (this is probably a hassle to script)
- Totems can only select spell focus in conjuration or transmutation
- Casting high lvl spells costs more piety for high lvl totems
- Totems cannot cast evocation spells
- Totems cannot pick epic spells (EDK, GR, HB)

Bonuses (along with or instead of the current stat/skill bonuses):
- Totem druids gain bonuses akin to those granted by SD shadows. These could vary from sneak attacks/crippling strikes/poison (snakes, rats, panthers) to enchantment bonuses/ damage bonuses /regeneration (wolf, bear) to debuff swarms like the shadow conjuration (bats, spiders, maybe rats too), to damage shields, skill bonuses to hide/ms, discipline etc while in the company of totem animal/companion.
- Totems can use flame and ice berries (last rounds instead of turns for the druid)
- spell-like abilities in totem shape (perhaps based on spell focus feats or off summons/companions): grease, quillfire healing sting, mass camouflage, vine mine, healing circle, nature's balance (summon or animal companion counts as spell focus abj, summon and animal counts as greater spell focus abj), aura of vitality and the like

Addendum: did NWN2 get something right? (Blasphemy, I know)
NWN2 incorperated various druid spells and feats that could be very interesting to look at.

Here's a selection of spells: foundation of stone (immunity to kd, slower movement), jagged tooth (target has keen on creature weapon - works for a wild-shaped druid too), body of the sun (burns nearby enemies), flame weapon (could be "elemental weapon"), extract water elemental (cold dmg, if it kills target: summon water elemental), vigorous cycle (party gains regen for 10 rounds + 1 ound per caster lvl), storm avatar (could be elemental avatar)

Feats of interest: plant shape (treant or shambling mound shape at lvl 12), elephant's hide (use wildshape to gain bonus to natural armor without shifting), oaken resilience (use wildshape to gain immunity from sneak/crit, poison), magical beast wild-shape (take on the shape of a magical beast - for Areltih Aborreal Wolf, Gorgon and the like could be possible uses), natural spell (cast spell while shapechanged, probably only possible with haks)

Reference: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Druid

[Peppermint]

Some of these changes look fine. Some of them don't. I'm not getting into that.

Here's how I see it.

Problems!

1) Let's start with totems: totems were a neat idea, but their actual mechanical implementation leaves something to be desired. Every totem feels very samey and it's not really clear what niche they're supposed to fill. They're sort of tanky, though not particularly so; they have no damage output; stat penalties make them worse off as a caster.

A band aid fix might help to make them more viable, but long term, totems need an overhaul. A totem should be focused into a unique combat style. Trade offs? Make them less casty, more squishy, whatever. I have nothing concrete to say here.

2) Shapechanging on standard druids is awful, with the exception of dragon shape, which is too good. This is kind of a real shame, since the shapechanging thing is sort of a huge part of the druid fantasy (which is probably why totems are so popular, despite being a bit of a mess -- see above!)

3) Agreed the casters are in a terrible place, but part of the problem is that there's no real clear direction here.

4) Animal companions all feel kind of samey and boring.

5) Dragon shape is perhaps the only real reason to go druid, but requires a huge investment, and is arguably too strong when you get it (at the cost of being too weak at levels 1-29).

Were it up to me, and I had infinite time and resources to solve all the problems right now, what would I do?

Solutions!

1) Clerics are either support-oriented with buffs and debuffs (i.e. caster), mages are the best at straight up disabling and DPS. So let's give druids a thematic niche: make them good at holding their ground.

Put more power into their persistent areas of effect and long-term abilities (e.g. regeneration). Consider rewarding druids who combine multiple abilities with additional effects (e.g. casting a fire storm in a storm of vengeance might set the entire storm on literal fire, significantly increasing the storm's damage output for as long as it lasts).

Make druid spell casters the guys you really don't want to fight on their own terms; but as a trade off, they're not super great at mobile combat. They're defenders of the balance, not aggressors.

2) Change wildshape to allow the druid to fill various niches, but none of them well-rounded. He can turn into a bear and become rather tanky. He can turn into a panther and become stealthy with decent flanking damage output. But his bear form does very little damage, and his panther form is super fragile; he can fill a role in a pinch, but he's not well-rounded like a traditional meleer.

3) Tone down dragon shape, but also lower the requirements. Turn this into a keystone for druids that want to focus on melee -- but not so much they end up taking it to the exclusion of everything else.

4) Retune and add more variety to animal companions. Give them obvious strengths and weaknesses. It'd be super great, for instance, if some companions were tanky and could guard the druid, but had very little damage output. Yay, utility.

5) Reduce druid/monk synergy. Perhaps not remove wisdom AC entirely, but significantly tone it down (e.g. +1 AC / monk level). This allows us to balance druids around not being monks, which means more build variety.

6) Overhaul the totem path. Let's be real. It sucks and is kind of boring. Make different totems better at different combat-oriented tasks, at the trade off of making the druid a less capable caster/having a little less versatility (e.g. no more bear to tank, panther to DPS, etc).

The panther totem, for example, might make the druid functionally a rogue (with some spell-like abilities). Bear totem might make them tanky and have a rage-like ability (basically emulating a barbarian). So on and so forth.

[Swords to Rust]

5) Reduce druid/monk synergy. Perhaps not remove wisdom AC entirely, but significantly tone it down (e.g. +1 AC / monk level). This allows us to balance druids around not being monks, which means more build variety.

I think this is key. If this is done, not even Dragonshape is particularly great. If AC is capped at 1 AC / Monk level, and wild shapes are made not to work with monk attacks, then there is a lot that can be done to improve druids without making them OP.

[Giftstoff]

5) Reduce druid/monk synergy. Perhaps not remove wisdom AC entirely, but significantly tone it down (e.g. +1 AC / monk level). This allows us to balance druids around not being monks, which means more build variety.

I think this is key. If this is done, not even Dragonshape is particularly great. If AC is capped at 1 AC / Monk level, and wild shapes are made not to work with monk attacks, then there is a lot that can be done to improve druids without making them OP.

Please do this. Please. The age of every druid also being a monk for the sheer mechanical power needs to end.

[One Two Three Five]

Forms what do stuff is a fun idea.
Bear as a DR/HP tank form, panther as damage form, wolf as AC tank, badger for travel form, and Boar has on hit debuffs?

Elemental forms on non-totems could be caster forms (boomkin), with a few spells, properly scaled and DC'd, relating to their element. One low level, one mid level, and one high level but on a cooldown.

So, fire elemental would get, say: Flame Lash unlimited, flame strike unlimited (short cooldown?), fire storm (long cooldown).

[Grimfury]

Peppermint wrote:

5) Reduce druid/monk synergy. Perhaps not remove wisdom AC entirely, but significantly tone it down (e.g. +1 AC / monk level). This allows us to balance druids around not being monks, which means more build variety.


I think this is key. If this is done, not even Dragonshape is particularly great. If AC is capped at 1 AC / Monk level, and wild shapes are made not to work with monk attacks, then there is a lot that can be done to improve druids without making them OP.


Please do this. Please. The age of every druid also being a monk for the sheer mechanical power needs to end.

While I'd argue that druids do not do this because they want to, they do it because they HAVE to if they wish to be viable whatsoever. If this is the route we are taking we could also argue that the age of every character on the server dipping rogue/bard for that extra +6 to AC and ability to cast level 9 scrolls should be looked at as well (since realistically the only reason people do this is for the "sheer mechanical power")

[gilescorey]

Rogue and bard don't lock people to Lawful Neutral.

[Wytchee]

6) Overhaul the totem path. Let's be real. It sucks and is kind of boring. Make different totems better at different combat-oriented tasks, at the trade off of making the druid a less capable caster/having a little less versatility (e.g. no more bear to tank, panther to DPS, etc).

What happens to totem druids who were built for casting, e.g. my own druid?

[Sockss]

I imagine they'd be grandfathered.

[Jagel]

Either that or the relevel script that was added during the latest warlock adjustment.

[caldura firebourne]

I think a good path to take is to give the totem and vanilla animal forms a creature weapon based on which animal you shift into, IIRC monk unarmed bonuses do not count towards creature weapons which would help to eliminate the idea that you need monk to be more than an HP tank as a shifted druid, while not completely destroying all the current druid/monk builds that are out there currently

[Lorkas]

I think a good path to take is to give the totem and vanilla animal forms a creature weapon based on which animal you shift into, IIRC monk unarmed bonuses do not count towards creature weapons which would help to eliminate the idea that you need monk to be more than an HP tank as a shifted druid, while not completely destroying all the current druid/monk builds that are out there currently

You do get monk UBAB with creature weapons, if that's what you mean. I'm pretty sure that WF/EWF unarmed also count, and you can definitely use stunning fist.

It also would give totem druids the upside of being able to pierce DR if they had stoneskin/premo up.

The only downside to a monk using a creature weapon is that monks with a large number of monk levels might do more damage with a fist than with the creature weapon. A level 16 monk has 1d20 fists, but would still just deal 1d4 shapeshifted into a pixie, for example.

[caldura firebourne]

I think a good path to take is to give the totem and vanilla animal forms a creature weapon based on which animal you shift into, IIRC monk unarmed bonuses do not count towards creature weapons which would help to eliminate the idea that you need monk to be more than an HP tank as a shifted druid, while not completely destroying all the current druid/monk builds that are out there currently

You do get monk UBAB with creature weapons, if that's what you mean. I'm pretty sure that WF/EWF unarmed also count, and you can definitely use stunning fist.

It also would give totem druids the upside of being able to pierce DR if they had stoneskin/premo up.

The only downside to a monk using a creature weapon is that monks with a large number of monk levels might do more damage with a fist than with the creature weapon. A level 16 monk has 1d20 fists, but would still just deal 1d4 shapeshifted into a pixie, for example.

even better, it shouldn't hurt the monk builds at all,but shouldn't make the even more powerful either if the damage doesn't stack

[Jagel]

It does make the monk more powerful though, as creature weapons can use DR spells to penetrate DR. So three monk lvls nets you an extra attack (flurry) that can now penetrate DR +5 as soon as you get stoneskin.

[Grimfury]

You do get monk UBAB with creature weapons, if that's what you mean. I'm pretty sure that WF/EWF unarmed also count, and you can definitely use stunning fist.

This is not the case, and has been a known bug since nwn released.

Unarmed Weapon feats, with the exception of Improved Critical, do not apply/work when shifted. Neither does Weapon Finesse (for the unarmed/creature weapon attacks), though your character sheet will say they do. (unless there are specific code changes here on Arelith that I am unaware of)

Also a few other things to note.

Item properties pick the highest one when merging, instead of stacking. So you are better off with a Belt of Str +7, than a
Belt of Str +5 and a Ring of Str +4. All AC types count as the same when shifted, and only pick the single highest one. However should you have the same property that would normally stack among your worn inventory on your WEAPON seperate from armor/items, since it is not grouped on your hide it will still stack normally with your hide properties. Regeneration seems to be the only property that does stack on your hide.

Bracers/gloves/gauntlets properties do not merge in any form.

So even though you do get a higher attack/hp in certain forms, the tradeoff is you actually lose quite a bit of AC in the process (another reason monk is chosen to offset this difference)

Arelith also has ability stat properties that are most often +1, occasionally +2 if you are extremely lucky. So when shifted, all those +1 ability stats you have stacked on your human form give you exactly +1 combined when shifted.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Peppermint, I love everything you say.

The niche of being territorial defenders 100% reflects both a genuine mechanical trope, and is highly reflective of the roleplay. That's such a great way to take druids forward.

[Wytchee]

Peppermint, I love everything you say.

The niche of being territorial defenders 100% reflects both a genuine mechanical trope, and is highly reflective of the roleplay. That's such a great way to take druids forward.

I definitely agree with this.

Here's what would be my ideal, really, for druids fitting this theme specifically.

1) For the spells Entangle, Vine Mine: Entangle and Spike Growth to grow in radius and duration as the druid levels up provided she has Greater Spell Focus in Transmutation, affecting an area roughly twice as large at level 30. I know this is possible, as it's been done with healer path cleric's heal and transmutation focused druids' Nature's Balance. I would also like Entangle to roll instantly upon landing (as Web does) rather than having it delayed a round.

2) For all of the druid's persistent AoE spells with the exception of Creeping Doom to no longer affect allies, affording the druid more utility in group PvE, and removing the need to slot 6 or more extended Freedom of Movements. I would also like the druid herself to be given immunity to her own Creeping Doom, allowing her to stand in it while tanking mobs.

3) For all items with permanent immunities on them to be phased out of the loot matrix. Adding items with persistent, unbreachable FoM was a p big mistake. I get that they're supposed to be "rare artifacts" but people have been farming and selling them for a while now, and they've become more or less prolific, with characters in their mid teens sporting them.

[Giftstoff]

I would like to see druids able to consecrate an area that gives a buff to natural creatures and characters and a negative to unnatural creatures like undead and constructs.

+2 ab/ac/saves to natural, -2 to unnatural.

Perhaps make it a console ability that effects an area for hours per level, or days per level? Allow only one per druid or something?