Regarding the Recent Druid Changes

[Wytchee]

... (and other suggestions).

Though my druid is just now hitting her stride, I have spent a good deal of time working with and testing the effectiveness of the new druid changes, particularly those to transmutation spells. For the record, my druid is level 15 and has Greater Spell Focus in Transmutation.

Aura of Vitality: haven't had time to test this one out much, but if it works as advertised, it's fine.

Bombardment: this spell is in a decent place for what it does.

Creeping Doom: give druids immunity to Creeping Doom, allowing them to stand in it while tanking mobs in their totem or wild shape. The spell is otherwise largely situational, and has an exceptionally long build up time during which holding spells can fail or even expire.

Barkskin: if possible, have it continue to scale in level, but only when applied on the druid, for a maximum of +10 at level 30.

Crumble: have it affect constructs in the same manner Drown affects living creatures.

Dominate Animal: change its duration to 3 turns +1/level for druids with Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment. There is absolutely no reason to use this spell as it is.

Drown: is in a very good place right now.

Entangle: this spell is ... difficult to use right. You more or less have to cast it at where you expect the enemy will be and have them run through it. If you cast it on an enemy, there is a lag time of about a round before any roll is made; in that time, the mob has already aggro'd you and started charging, or the PC has already cheesily sidestepped out of it. If possible, change this spell so that it applies its entangling effect instantly, as Web does.

Inferno: is also in a good place right now. Saveless and decent damage.

Nature's Balance: see Aura of Vitality.

Spike Growth: Lower the duration to 1 round/druid level and raise its damage to 1d4/2 druid levels as opposed to 1d4/3 druid levels. A spike growth can linger for real-life hours and cause problems for other players, as well as (I imagine) significant lag should too many accumulate at once. There is also a rather cheesy exploit associated with this spell that shall remain undetailed and has been reported to the Admin Team. The recent damage increase is welcome, but still not enough to make the spell worthwhile in groups considering most spawns are cleared in less than a dozen rounds or so. EDIT: keep in mind that Spike Growth cannot be maximized or empowered, only extended, so set aside concerns about 60 DPR AoEs.

Stonehold: this one needs immediate attention, considering that FoM items are a thing, now. A prolific and terrible thing. Remove the paralysis descriptor and make it mind-affecting, or better yet, a poison. The latter renders the druid immune without the use of FoM. Also, remove any item with permanent immunities from the loot matrix (this is a bigger problem).

Quillfire: remove the 18 DC cap on the Large Scorpion Venom, and have it scale as though it were just another druid spell (10+spell level+foci+wisdom modifier).

These are my humble suggestions regarding the Druid class, specifically for those of us not building towards Dragon Shape, or not at all concerned with the melee aspects of the class. I would like to hear your comments/criticisms (so long as they are constructive) on these suggestions, or hear some suggestions of your own. Thanks for reading. ^^

[Rwby]

Would those AC Increases not have horrific balencing issues with those Druids who _Are_ building towards dragonshape? That's a lot of extra AC you're proposing right there, and I don't see any suggested nerfs.
Is the over-all feedback, class not playable, needs more buffs?

[Wytchee]

Would those AC Increases not have horrific balencing issues with those Druids who _Are_ building towards dragonshape? That's a lot of extra AC you're proposing right there, and I don't see any suggested nerfs.
Is the over-all feedback, class not playable, needs more buffs?

The feedback was in response to the recent changes to some Druid transmutation spells. While any buff is welcome, the class still needs a lot of work. There is a reason why the vast majority of druids on the server are Lawful Neutral and dip monk. Druid is otherwise non-competitive.

A druid should not need to build towards dragon shape to be viable and competitive in epic levels. Presently, druids who do not build towards dragon shape or dip monk are at a critical disadvantage on almost every level versus just about every other class.

Concerns about balance can be addressed by rendering monk AC unapplicable to shifted forms, or in a myriad other ways, like nerfing dragon shape itself. Caster druids are insufferably just ... bad right now, especially with the addition of items with permanent, unbreachable Freedom on them, which renders all of our holding spells useless. Our AC is also utterly abysmal; I'll have a whopping 12 at level 30, which is so low that wearing armor or any other source of AC is just a waste of inventory space and weight. As for nerfs, I did suggest that monk AC be capped to monk levels. Other than that, honestly, what is there to nerf druids for? We are born nerfed.

[Lorkas]

Would those AC Increases not have horrific balencing issues with those Druids who _Are_ building towards dragonshape? That's a lot of extra AC you're proposing right there, and I don't see any suggested nerfs.
Is the over-all feedback, class not playable, needs more buffs?

15 of the extra 20 is dodge AC, which wouldn't stack with the 20 dodge AC from dragon shape or from a high level totem shape. It would add 5 AC to a shapeshifted druid at high level.

[Diilicious]

were... the changes writen somewhere? i cant find it..

[Wytchee]

were... the changes writen somewhere? i cant find it..

Next reset:

Druid Spell Changes:
- Inferno now deals 1d6/4 Caster Levels with Greater Transmutation Focus
- Sunbeam capped to 10d6 Divine Damage (Was 20d6) but instead adds the Inferno Spell on failed Reflex Save which works as the new Inferno above (Druid only).
- Nature's Balance now scales with Greater & Epic Transmutation Focus giving a bigger AoE and slightly increases the breach strength for each focus, The Breach is now also Saveless.
- Aura of Vitality lasts 3 Rounds Per Level with Greater Transmutation Focus and Turns Per Level with Epic Transmutation Focus.
- Spike Growth damage increased to 1d4/3 Caster Levels to a maximum of 40 Damage at Level 30
- Drown now also deals a 2d10+5 Damage, even if the target makes the save.

[ActionReplay]

I think a lot of spell suggestions are valid here and I will be going them over more properly once I am back this weekend.

As for the Monk/Druid combo we have an alternative coming soon:ish, perhaps next week. Stay tuned.

[Jagel]

[Sockss]

Bombardment applying a full round kd is exceptionally strong. You can cycle that and any other spell, or use summons, to keep everything with low reflex (see: most non Dex builds) disabled completely.

Stonehold is in a fine spot imo. You have to remember it is essentially a death spell. Anything that doesn't make the save is going to die 99% of the time.

Creeping needs to be combo'd and I think that's fine as well. If it had a paralyzing effect it means stonehold, spike growth, entangle and web are significantly less useful.

I think the persistent aoes in general are in a good place. They require a bit of forethought and placement. I'd agree they need a buff but I'd push towards a duration increase to all of them. You can stack up a few types and use them tactfully to clear an entire area fairly easily.

Currently the counterplay with entangle is the same as storm of vengeance. You move out of it. If you weren't able to do that, most things will likely be held for the duration, which is a likely death sentence.

Druids already can build for AC, I don't think that's a good direction to take considering you could instead differentiate the build paths and create different styles of play.

Not to mention that a non monk druid can still get decent AC, those changes would push them into great AC territory. Then, perhaps you take Dex as a main stat etc.

Quillfire definitely needs a boost, though!

[Ork]

How to counter a druid: cast freedom.

[Yellena]

These suggestions I made could also help druids. Feel free to improve them here.

Polymorph perks

Transmutation focus now enhances polymorphs (regardless if spells or class abilities). The list below shows the bonuses (not cummulative):

Spell Focus:
-STR/DEX/CON: +2
-DR: 5/+2
-If unarmed: +1 "Base" Attack Bonus and +1 Damage Bonus (Damage Increase Effect)
-If armed: Damage Bonus +1 (works like Fighter's, adding to the weapon)
-Dispell Resist +2 (for polymorph effect)
-Regeneration: 1
-Gains +1AC/10 levels (rounded up)
-If existing DR (X/+Y): +1 Y (do not apply to the perk DR granted above)

Greater Spell Focus:
-STR/DEX/CON: +4
-DR: 5/+4
-If unarmed: +3 "Base" Attack Bonus and +3 Damage Bonus (Damage Increase Effect)
-If armed: Attack Bonus +1 and Damage Bonus +3 (works like Fighter's, adding to the weapon)
-Dispell Resist +4 (for polymorph effect)
-Regeneration: 1/10 levels (rounded up)
-Enables Shifter Class regardness of Wildshape ability.
-Enables Item Merge: Armors
-Gains Uncanny Dodge
-Gains +2AC/10 levels (rounded up)
-If existing DR (X/+Y): +5 X and +1 Y (do not apply to the perk DR granted above)

Epic Spell Focus:
-STR/DEX/CON: +6
-DR: 5/+6
-If unarmed: +5 "Base" Attack Bonus and +5 Damage Bonus (Damage Increase Effect)
-If armed: Attack Bonus +2 and Damage Bonus +5 (works like Fighter's, adding to the weapon)
-Dispell Resist +6 (for polymorph effect)
-Regeneration: 2/10 levels (rounded up)
-Enables Item Merge: Armors and Items
-Gains Uncanny Dodge
-Gains +3AC/10 levels (rounded up)
-If existing DR (X/+Y): +10 X and +2 Y (do not apply to the perk DR granted above)


Aditional:
Background: Shapeshifter heritage (enables Shifter class)

More Druid Spell changes suggestion

EVOCATION

●Flame Lash:
-Greater Focus: lasts rounds per level. While it lasts, it grants the caster a command that repeats the leash attack.
-Epic Focus: increases duration.


ENCHANTMENT

●Charm/Dominate/Hold Animals:
-Greater Spell Focus: also affects Beasts, Magical Beasst, Vermin.
-Epic Spell Focus: also affects ooze, aberrations and fey.


NECROMANCY

●Greater Focus: "root" line of spells also saps energy from affected living things.
●Epic Focus: "root" line of spells saps even more energy from living things.

●Poison and Contagion:
-Greater Focus: Aplies improved poisons and diseases (custom made).
-Epic Focus: the effects are more intense and bypass racial immunity to poison, diseases or negative status.

●Death Ward:
-Greater Focus: protects from negative energy.
-Epic Focus: Protects from drains.


TRANSMUTATION

●Greater Focus: Elemental Shapes and Shapechange shapes receives improved properties.
-Elemental Shape: receives abilities similat to the summoned elementals.
-Shapechange: Improved DR and statistics.
●Epic Spell Focus: further Improvements.
-Elemental Shape: transforms into an Ancient elemental if 28 or more druid levels.
-Shapechange: can recast again after unshaping, at will, if 28 or more druid levels.

●Crumble:
Uncap damage. Most Golem NPCs have high HP and wasting a 6th slot could be better on something else than a mid damage single target spell.
-Greater Focus Interaction: stops golem in place (entangle?).
-Epic Spell Focus: lasting damage.

●Magic Fang line:
-Greater Focus: allows to use on yourself (applies on character, and enhances only unarmed attacks and creature weapons when shaping).
-Epic Spell Focus: increases duration and also affects summoned creatures.

[Lorkas]

Combined with a revised Barkskin, this affords druids an additional 25 AC.

Isn't it 20 additional AC compared to what they get now? You proposed for Insight to give dodge AC equal to the WIS bonus and for barkskin to scale up to +10 instead of up to +5. I only count 20 from those two changes -- where's the other 5?

The dodge AC would, by the way, give a buff at least in part to druids in elemental shape or Shapechange forms, and would actually buff totem form at least a little bit until level 24 is reached.

It could also have implications for monk and monk-dip builds casting it from a scroll.

[Wytchee]

Combined with a revised Barkskin, this affords druids an additional 25 AC.

Isn't it 20 additional AC compared to what they get now? You proposed for Insight to give dodge AC equal to the WIS bonus and for barkskin to scale up to +10 instead of up to +5. I only count 20 from those two changes -- where's the other 5?

The dodge AC would, by the way, give a buff at least in part to druids in elemental shape or Shapechange forms, and would actually buff totem form at least a little bit until level 24 is reached.

It could also have implications for monk and monk-dip builds casting it from a scroll.

Yeah, sorry. It's +20. I was counting the whole of barkskin rather than just the bonus 5. ^^

[Wytchee]

Bombardment applying a full round kd is exceptionally strong. You can cycle that and any other spell, or use summons, to keep everything with low reflex (see: most non Dex builds) disabled completely.

Stonehold is in a fine spot imo. You have to remember it is essentially a death spell. Anything that doesn't make the save is going to die 99% of the time.

Creeping needs to be combo'd and I think that's fine as well. If it had a paralyzing effect it means stonehold, spike growth, entangle and web are significantly less useful.

I think the persistent aoes in general are in a good place. They require a bit of forethought and placement. I'd agree they need a buff but I'd push towards a duration increase to all of them. You can stack up a few types and use them tactfully to clear an entire area fairly easily.

Currently the counterplay with entangle is the same as storm of vengeance. You move out of it. If you weren't able to do that, most things will likely be held for the duration, which is a likely death sentence.

Druids already can build for AC, I don't think that's a good direction to take considering you could instead differentiate the build paths and create different styles of play.

Not to mention that a non monk druid can still get decent AC, those changes would push them into great AC territory. Then, perhaps you take Dex as a main stat etc.

Quillfire definitely needs a boost, though!

Don't take this as me being aggressive, but have you ever played a druid? Stonehold is not a death spell. It's a holding spell for 1d6 rounds and can be countered very easily with widely available and affordable items: clarity (unbreachable) and FoM (unbreachable on items).

You may be right about Creeping Doom. I do think the druid should be given immunity to it, however, if only for added versatility.

No druid builds for dex. I fail to see a scenario in which a caster druid can achieve AC above 30 without dipping monk or otherwise completely gimping their casting effectiveness.

Many of your points are valid but I get the impression you're not terribly familiar with the class if you think caster druids are in any sort of decent place right now. They're pretty bad.

[Giftstoff]

Not to mention that a non monk druid can still get decent AC, those changes would push them into great AC territory. Then, perhaps you take Dex as a main stat etc.

They absolutely cannot. Even going full dex a druid isnt even going to touch 40 ac, which is still nothing, and a complete drain on the few strengths a druid DOES have.

Lets say you cripple yourself by somehow getting a 30 in dex, and you are a druid with a tower shield which is disgusting.

10+10 dex, +7 adam tower, +3 tumble if you spend 30 skill points cross class +5 barkskin, +3 if you go the rogue stealth armor that doesnt benefit a pure druid at all, +1 dodge on boots and +4 deflection from shield potions and +2 from armor skin using one of your few epic feats. 45 ac and a much weaker druid thats still going to get hit 95% of the time by anyone above level 20 in any combat class.

Any realistic non monk cheese druid build isnt going to be able to get AC.

[Tetra]

.

[Wytchee]

Druids do get stoneskin and premonition though which balances the AC a little. I wish they had a damage shield as well.

I think a version of the endless GSF spells would be good for caster druids.. like GSF evo. gives unlimited flame lash, another quillfire or healing sting etc. This would quickly make a caster druid very viable.

Rather unrelated question but how do GSS and Premo stack up? Are they both depleted simultaneously or do they stack for a total of 450? If the former is true it's pretty useless having both up at once, isn't it?

[Sockss]

Don't take this as me being aggressive, but have you ever played a druid? Stonehold is not a death spell. It's a holding spell for 1d6 rounds and can be countered very easily with widely available and affordable items: clarity (unbreachable) and FoM (unbreachable on items).

You may be right about Creeping Doom. I do think the druid should be given immunity to it, however, if only for added versatility.

No druid builds for dex. I fail to see a scenario in which a caster druid can achieve AC above 30 without dipping monk or otherwise completely gimping their casting effectiveness.

Many of your points are valid but I get the impression you're not terribly familiar with the class if you think caster druids are in any sort of decent place right now. They're pretty bad.

Caster druids are terrible, I will agree.

I just don't believe some of these suggested changes will push them in the right direction. Some of the suggestions are exceptionally good.

The main suggestion simply copies the monk/druid AC (Albeit, better).

I have indeed played a druid and, likewise, don't take this the wrong way, but being held for a round is a death sentence in PvP and quite a considerable amount of the time for PvE.

Regardless of whether or not their are immunities available, be they short duration, or breachable, or as a result of poor item design - there are active ways to combat them. If your argument is that, because of these, they are useless, why do other holding spells on Arelith enjoy a firm place in the meta? (See: Feylocks)

The druid is entirely immune to grease, web and entangle and can efficiently place themselves within a very nice defensive zone of their own making, extra points for SoV. Adding an extra layer on that is another save to get close to them.

Druid/Rogue/ranger can get a decent amount of AC (Not including arts here, but that will introduce more AC):

10 (Base) + 13 (Ranger armour + Full dex mod) +2 (Armour skin) + 6 (Tumble) + 5 (Nat) + 3 (Prot) + 6 (Shield) + 1 (Dodge Boots) +1 (Dodge) = 47

+10 Imp Evasion = 57

+4 (? depending on progession) Natural (With proposed changes)
+~12 Dodge (With proposed changes)
== 73 AC

Temp:

+ 1 Mage Armour Pot
+ 4 Haste
+ 1 Shield Pot

= 79 AC

Not too shabby and room for improvement with arts / party buffs.

And yes, IE is perfectly legitimate on a druid, especially with shapechanging and with a considerable amount of power in summons, companions, AE's and persistent effects. Want to wait out someones clarity? Stick IE on and stand in your Paoe's, while your summons roll attacks.

TLDR: Druids aren't in a great place at the moment, but from your suggestions they become more binary or just flat out silly:

You either kill someone(1), or they have an immunity equipped / in a spell effect and the druid is useless (0)
You murder most non-dex based builds by keeping them locked in a KD.
You cover your weakness by not dipping monk, by directly doing exactly what dipping monk does.

[Sockss]

Oh, you can add a skleen for a nice round 80!

[Wytchee]

Based on some feedback from other members of the community I've edited some of my suggestions. I agree that bombardment should not be given a full round of knockdown (however, it is my understanding that Earthquake does knockdown for a full round, is also a reflex save, and does considerably more damage). My mind has been focused on PvE and not really on PvP. However, I still believe that the druid class is in such an abysmal place right now (at least as far as casters are concerned) that some of the dramatic changes I've proposed are more than justified.

At present, an epic druid is going to have a hard time protecting the balance, particularly because her primary antagonists are going to be necromancers and warlocks, two archetypes against which her spells are largely ineffectual and for which she has very few counters (outside of UMD).

[Lorkas]

Oh, you can add a skleen for a nice round 80!

The skleen is deflection AC. It won't stack with stuff you already counted, like the shield pot. I don't see a helm there, though.

[Wytchee]

The build you posted is rather niche and would have a low caster level (24 at most). It's comparable to a battlecleric, only without the battlecleric's burst capabilities.

I can see a rat totem druid giving it a go and being a total skill-monkey, though.

At any rate, your criticisms are very valid, but I fail to see what your argument is at its core. Are you saying druids are just fine as they are, or could use "just a little tweaking"? Because the former is patently false and the latter is a gross understatement. ^^

[Hunter548]

I think the point he's trying to make is that while your changes wouldn't break a druid who makes no effort to boost AC through other methods, they would be more than a bit overpowered on any druid who does try to get some AC. They'd go from low AC to absurdly tanky.

[Wytchee]

I think the point he's trying to make is that while your changes wouldn't break a druid who makes no effort to boost AC through other methods, they would be more than a bit overpowered on any druid who does try to get some AC. They'd go from low AC to absurdly tanky.

Right, absurdly tanky and terrible at just about everything else, which sort of balances it out. ^^

Pale masters are absurdly tanky, but terrible at everything else.

[Giftstoff]

That build would be godly horrible, its true. Either you go totem for the only shapechange that gives you any real boost and cripple yourself with barely enough strength to carry your shield, while also -2 ac and -4 con, your wisdom is terrible so your spell DC's are laughable, and you rely on needing to buff yourself even more to the teeth then most builds, and are extremely easily dispelled by anyone because of your low CL.

Also recall 90% of the things in that build don't apply while shapeshifted.