Regarding the Recent Druid Changes

[Sockss]

Earthquake is 3 seconds of iirc, it's also not party friendly.

I mean, with that build you're very tanky, you can use summons and companions to shred melees in safety. You have harm, which is saveless. You have grease, which doesn't use spellcraft so will eat up casters. You have ice storm, which is again saveless. There's plenty of options for it to be useful without DC's.

I also don't understand why your DC's would be laughable? You can do this with a full wisdom stat push. You just buff your Dex with cats and aura of vitality. The ranger armour additionally comes with 2 Dex, so it's super easy to do.

No offense but, have you played a well built PM? They're pretty solid.

I agree that they need help, but I disagree with helping them in this way (ridiculous numbers aside).

For example, clerics are casters are pretty offensively terrible compared to an arcane class. Though, they have their own niche with self buffs than heals.

Why not create a thematic niche for druids? Focus on summons and persistent effects; or some other idea.

[Wytchee]

Earthquake is 3 seconds of iirc, it's also not party friendly.

I mean, with that build you're very tanky, you can use summons and companions to shred melees in safety. You have harm, which is saveless. You have grease, which doesn't use spellcraft so will eat up casters. You have ice storm, which is again saveless. There's plenty of options for it to be useful without DC's.

I also don't understand why your DC's would be laughable? You can do this with a full wisdom stat push. You just buff your Dex with cats and aura of vitality. The ranger armour additionally comes with 2 Dex, so it's super easy to do.

No offense but, have you played a well built PM? They're pretty solid.

I agree that they need help, but I disagree with helping them in this way (ridiculous numbers aside).

For example, clerics are casters are pretty offensively terrible compared to an arcane class. Though, they have their own niche with self buffs than heals.

Why not create a thematic niche for druids? Focus on summons and persistent effects; or some other idea.

Again, this is a very specific druid/ranger/rogue dip build, the "tankiness" of which is only attainable via a panoply of UMD items or potions that would make a dedicated rogue blush, and with the addition of IE which is unfeasible for a caster druid as we are already feat-starved; druids need help in the AC department.

You may be right from a purely mechanical, min-maxing standpoint, but from a practical one, or from the perspective of someone playing a dedicated druid who does druid-y things and shies away from arcane magic/items in general, this just isn't feasible.

The AC changes I proposed wouldn't even stack in high-level totem or dragon shape (with the exception of the +5 to natural), because totem form and dragon shape already give +20 dodge, which is the cap. These changes would only benefit the druid while in humanoid form.

Even with the proposed changes, here is a realistic summation of what Aelwyd's AC will look like:
Base 7 (-3 dex modifier), +10 natural barkskin, +15 dodge Owl's Wisdom, +1 dodge boots, +2 (4 dex) from Aura of Vitality, +1 deflection from skleen + 5 from the best leather armor (she won't actually wear armor, that slot is dedicated to enchanted cloth), +3 from tumble (which she won't be investing in either) + 5 from mithril tower shield (which, again, she won't be using because it is metal) = 49, if my math is correct. 53 with haste. This is comparable to a cleric, battle or caster, who also, by the way, could be afforded a dip into rogue for UMD and utilize the same items you listed to boost her AC higher, and can better afford IE (and who also likely has more strength to carry armor). So, at its most ideal, these changes offer to make druids comparable in the AC department to caster clerics.

EDIT: By the way, dodge bonuses aren't applied while flat-footed, not even with uncanny dodge.

Is that entirely unreasonable?

If so, then please consider some of the other changes I've proposed, such as that to entangle, which is unwieldy compared to its wizard/travel cleric counterpart web, or that of giving druids immunity to stonehold, allowing them to stand in their own AoE. Are these over the top?

[Lorkas]

Even with the proposed changes, here is a realistic summation of what Aelwyd's AC will look like:
Base 7 (-3 dex modifier), +10 natural barkskin, +15 dodge Owl's Wisdom, +1 dodge boots, +2 (4 dex) from Aura of Vitality, +1 deflection from skleen + 5 from the best leather armor (she won't actually wear armor, that slot is dedicated to enchanted cloth), +3 from tumble (which she won't be investing in either) + 5 from mithril tower shield (which, again, she won't be using because it is metal) = 49, if my math is correct. 53 with haste. This is comparable to a cleric, battle or caster, who also, by the way, could be afforded a dip into rogue for UMD and utilize the same items you listed to boost her AC higher, and can better afford IE (and who also likely has more strength to carry armor). So, at its most ideal, these changes offer to make druids comparable in the AC department to caster clerics.

The strange thing about it, as I see it, is that you're making the argument that a druid who doesn't build for AC at all (you aren't even wearing leather armor, don't wear a helm with AC, don't wear a shield, don't take expertise or IE, have DEX deep in the dumpster, don't even use a DEX potion, and don't multiclass monk) should have AC comparable to a caster cleric, who probably is doing many of the things referred to in the parenthetical list above in order to increase their AC.

The other problem is, as mentioned: if any druid does do those things listed, they will begin to have crazy high AC for a caster. It's a pretty odd argument that druids should have high AC without having to try to build toward it at all.

It's like noting that rogues might struggle with will and fort saves if they don't build for them, then asking for rogues to get a buff where they add their DEX mod to their fort and will saves in addition to reflex. It would take rogues who don't build for saves and make them have good saves, but it would take rogues who do build for them into god saves territory.

And finally: what happens if the caster cleric you mentioned picks up UMD and an Owl's Insight scroll? What if the caster cleric makes a druid friend who can cast it naturally? What if a monk/rogue who already has 65 AC does the same?

I don't think anyone is arguing that druids are in a perfect spot right now balance-wise, but this huge AC buff onto an already crazy useful spell is going too far. Owl's Insight is a level 5 spell that already adds 15 WIS and you're asking for 15 AC to be added to it. Note that Epic Mage Armor is an epic spell that adds 20 AC (that doesn't stack with helm, armor, shield, or barkskin/shadow shield bonuses) and no other bonus of any kind. It's way too much for that spell. It would be way too much for a level 9 spell. Yes, even though it doesn't stack with totem or DS AC.

[Sockss]

I separated easily obtainable potions (MA, Haste, Shield), which do not require UMD.

The only thing you need is max tumble (Which is standard on anything being built for AC) and ranger (For the armour) but an artefact armour will work just as well.

In summation:

If you build badly, you will be comparatively bad.

If you compensate for bad builds, you make good builds better.

Ergo, you will still be comparatively bad if you build badly.

[Wytchee]

I would like to hear suggestions, then. Perhaps druids are fine as they are and I'm just being petulant. If people generally hold that belief, then it's no wonder to me why dedicated druids are so rare, because it's comical imagining a level 30 druid, considering the current state of the class, roleplaying to any degree an "epic defender of the balance" when our primary antagonists (namely, warlocks and necromancers) can so easily overpower us (gods forbid the warlock have a FoM artifact... *Shudders*).

Never in this thread did I mean to suggest druids should be top tier in any respects. I just want them to be competitive, at least on *some level*, and not have their primary spells be so easily thwarted by two widely available and affordable items. And y'know how bargaining works, you start high in order to cement expectations. In retrospect the +15 AC from Owl's Insight is far too much, but I've yet to hear alternatives. I guess I'll wait a while to see what the devs have in store for us, if and when we're given some love, and recompile my suggestions.

EDIT: I agree with the letter of your summation, but not the spirit. I disagree with the attitude that "pure 30 builds are just bad and will forever be bad and that's just the way it is." It mandates that players build a certain way just to be competitive, or even effective, at certain levels, which I believe stifles roleplay rather than allowing it to flourish. Pure builds should not be given boons that make them stronger overall than dip builds, but there should be some marginal benefit to going pure, not just for druids, but for every base class. It can only lead to more variety.

[Rwby]

I would like to hear suggestions, then. Perhaps druids are fine as they are and I'm just being petulant. If people generally hold that belief, then it's no wonder to me why dedicated druids are so rare, because it's comical imagining a level 30 druid, considering the current state of the class, roleplaying to any degree an "epic defender of the balance" when our primary antagonists (namely, warlocks and necromancers) can so easily overpower us (gods forbid the warlock have a FoM artifact... *Shudders*).

This might be sidetracking and all, but... Isn't it good to be weak to your primary antagonists? That means they can ya know, antagonise. And do it well! Possibly even at lower levels. Means that you need to reach out and get friends to compensate for your weaknesses. The stuff good stories are made of!

[Sockss]

I'm all for variety.

If the dev's add in a 'pure class' cookie, then that could make a pure classed druid viable. However, that pure class cookie isn't going to affect any other builds - by its very nature.

However, if you take two pure class druids and one is grabbing trash feats and pumping charisma (Building bad), while the other is building well, the first is going to be comparatively bad.

Does this mean that a pure class cookie is then crappy and needs to be buffed? Of course not.

Balance only works if you consider optimum build paths and how they interact, you also assume everyone is as skilled as everyone else. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Hence the reason for displaying how damaging the suggestions you made can be. Just because they wouldn't be broken if you utilised them with your current character, doesn't mean they aren't.

[Wytchee]

This might be sidetracking and all, but... Isn't it good to be weak to your primary antagonists? That means they can ya know, antagonise. And do it well! Possibly even at lower levels. Means that you need to reach out and get friends to compensate for your weaknesses. The stuff good stories are made of!

To some extent, yes? But not to the comical degree that exists presently. Again, I'm not suggesting druids be made top-tier, but there needs to be some mechanical backing to the whole "level 30 epic defender of the balance" schtick. Don't you agree?

Balance only works if you consider optimum build paths and how they interact, you also assume everyone is as skilled as everyone else. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Hence the reason for displaying how damaging the suggestions you made can be. Just because they wouldn't be broken if you utilised them with your current character, doesn't mean they aren't.

I agreed that the changes to Owl's Insight was too much, specifically because of the points you and Lorkas raised. I'm not arguing them. Can you offer suggestions regarding any of the other spell changes I proposed? Is changing entangle so it works like web "broken"? What about changing the descriptors on Stonehold? Or at the very least removing FoM items from the loot matrix?

As for "bad builds"; my druid is in no way a bad build. 40 wisdom at level 30 and three epic spell foci (albeit one is illusion for RP flavor, the others are transmutation and conjuration). Max all druid class skills, wisdom and con on all her gear, etc. If building to accentuate the features of a class (in this case, conjuration and transmutation spells) is "bad", then that is evidence that the class is poorly designed and needs review. I don't build poorly, but even at level 30, I fail to see how my druid is going to be competitive in most encounters against opponents of equal level and skill, simply for the fact that all her disabling spells are so easily mutable.

I will say that I am immensely grateful for FoM being added to the breach list; it's a huge step in the right direction. But it was also added to items as a permanent, unbreachable property, and these items are slowly becoming prolific as people farm and sell them.

[Sockss]

Disabling spells, just as death spells, do need some form of counter-play other than saves - because they do result in death on failure - and there are only a couple of things that are able to be built that cover all saves. (That said, I don't agree with FoM items. I think anything with straight up immunity that can't be counterplayed is terrible)

If you want to give pure druids a cookie, I'd give it in the form of shapechange buffs and companion buffs - shapes can stand to be significantly stronger in ways other than ac, if you are pure classed.

You already get some bonuses for conjuration spells if you're pure by virtue of Peppermints conjuration epic scaling.

If I was personally revising the class with no pure caveats, I'd start by identifying what the class should do. IMO, druids would fit a more tactful, prepared approach with their casting.

I would give them longer duration on persistent AOE effects for zone control. Perhaps an ability to -dispel their persistant AOE's at will.

Additionally have natures balance make druid & henchman/summons immune to any druid AOE effects for a short duration. (Ergo, grease, entangle, stonehold fails could then be capitalised on more easily in the form of burst from all your summons)

I would also modify elemental shapes to be more akin to the summoned versions (E.G. Earth - DR, Air - AC, Fire - Damage Shield, Water - Regen).

I'd also remove totem shapes, or at least stick a notice on them akin to kensai. Take bear if you're going for dragon shape, don't take any if you're not, because you will be terrible

I'd make call lightning combo with storm of vengeance, offering a higher damage die if you had an SoV in effect in an area. (Edit, hell, even having lightning strike pop a reflex save vs a stun, if the caster is standing in an SoV would be great)

I'd change healing sting to less damage and remove the save - but have it tick on a duration. Each tick healing the caster (Unless target lesser restores) capping at an as yet to be defined number of levels.

I'd change quillfire to be a ranged touch attack, more akin to manticore spikes. With scaling damage.

[Wytchee]

Disabling spells, just as death spells, do need some form of counter-play other than saves - because they do result in death on failure - and there are only a couple of things that are able to be built that cover all saves. (That said, I don't agree with FoM items. I think anything with straight up immunity that can't be counterplayed is terrible)

Counterplay is vital. But yes, immunity items need to be removed from the loot matrix ASAP.

If you want to give pure druids a cookie, I'd give it in the form of shapechange buffs and companion buffs - shapes can stand to be significantly stronger in ways other than ac, if you are pure classed.

You already get some bonuses for conjuration spells if you're pure by virtue of Peppermints conjuration epic scaling.

Elemental shapes could be helped, possibly by making them equivalent in strength and ability to ancient elementals, or perhaps even monolithic elementals at level 28, though that may indeed be "too strong." Totem forms are useful as an 'oh crap' button, and perhaps as a tank in limited situations, but not for much else. I also once proposed that the bonuses from elemental shapes persist in humanoid form until rest/changing again. For instance, earth's 15/+3 DR would persist out of elemental form, or air's 50% concealment, etc. etc., but never more than one at a time.

Our animal companions are already quite strong, especially if you choose the dire wolf which has exceptional AC and AB. However, variety could be introduced by giving the other companions something in the way of extra defense, mind-immunity in the case of spiders, true sight for the bat, etc. The companions could also do with immunity to spells that specifically (both in NWN and PnP) target extra-planar creatures while they're on the material plane.

I've also suggested our summoned ancient elementals become elemental monoliths as a level 28.

I would not want nor expect all of these to be implemented, however. I'm merely brainstorming.

If I was personally revising the class with no pure caveats, I'd start by identifying what the class should do. IMO, druids would fit a more tactful, prepared approach with their casting.

I would give them longer duration on persistent AOE effects for zone control. Perhaps an ability to -dispel their persistant AOE's at will.

Crowd control, shapeshifting and summons are where the druid shines, and in my opinion are where improvements should be focused. Neither should be stronger than the other, but the three should work in tandem with one another, fitting in with the whole "balance" idea. Adding entangle, spike growth, et al to the dispel table would be an excellent tool as well.

Additionally have natures balance make druid & henchman/summons immune to any druid AOE effects for a short duration. (Ergo, grease, entangle, stonehold fails could then be capitalised on more easily in the form of burst from all your summons)

Also an excellent idea. One of the major drawbacks to the druid as a caster class is the fact that our AoE spells are largely detrimental when used in groups/with summons. Presently FoM can be cast on a druid's animal companion, and as elementals are immune to mind-affecting spells, Stonehold can be used liberally (and very effectively). However, utilizing these spells in groups means reserving a significant amount of spell slots for FoM for yourself, your companion, and anyone in your group who doesn't want to be encased in stone.

I'd also remove totem shapes, or at least stick a notice on them akin to kensai. Take bear if you're going for dragon shape, don't take any if you're not, because you will be terrible

I would keep totem shapes as a purely thematic/cosmetic thing, or perhaps limit their bonuses to skills only (+10 lore in the case of raven, +12 spot for eagle, perhaps +10 discipline for the bear, etc.). This allows players to choose a totem that represents their character both mechanically and thematically without crippling them by decimating their physical stats. Of course, there would need to be an appropriate incentive *not* to take a totem bargain, as well.

I'd make call lightning combo with storm of vengeance, offering a higher damage die if you had an SoV in effect in an area. (Edit, hell, even having lightning strike pop a reflex save vs a stun, if the caster is standing in an SoV would be great)

This is awesome; I love the idea of the druid being a combo-based caster. Stonehold is used with Creeping Doom. Call Lightning with SoV. Perhaps, even, damage die for ice storm could be increased against creatures affected by your inferno, allowing for potent Sunbeam/Ice Storm combos.

I'd change healing sting to less damage and remove the save - but have it tick on a duration. Each tick healing the caster (Unless target lesser restores) capping at an as yet to be defined number of levels.

The save has already been removed, unless you meant to say re-add the save. I do like the idea of a vampiric HoT, though. If this becomes the case, however, I believe it should have a fort save.

I'd change quillfire to be a ranged touch attack, more akin to manticore spikes. With scaling damage.

And also raise the 18 DC cap on the poison.

All excellent and well-thought out suggestions.

[Lorkas]

Stonehold could be changed to apply stun instead of paralysis, since stun isn't prevented by freedom. Also change it to not target party members.

Could also make vine mine: hamper movement do something like spawn some treants around the spell target, if it's targeted on a creature. That would make for a handy little no-save CC that would last for as long as it takes the target to kill the treants, and meanwhile the target is accumulating movement penalties.

[Ork]

Stonehold could be changed to apply stun instead of paralysis, since stun isn't prevented by freedom. Also change it to not target party members.

Would make the spell useful again.

[Wytchee]

Stonehold could be changed to apply stun instead of paralysis, since stun isn't prevented by freedom. Also change it to not target party members.

That would be ideal.

Could also make vine mine: hamper movement do something like spawn some treants around the spell target, if it's targeted on a creature. That would make for a handy little no-save CC that would last for as long as it takes the target to kill the treants.

Hnnng.

[Sockss]

Stonehold would then become a longer duration SoV, only using will. (1 round / level duration, extendable)

So to melee a caster druid you would need to have mind/stun immunity, or make a reflex and a will save vs stun. Which is pretty strong.

Keeping in theme with combo's. Perhaps anything affected by stonehold becomes a 'construct' for use with crumble?

I feel the real issue here is item's granting freedom of movement, as oppose to the spell being terrible as is.

No save CC's are super, super good.

[Wytchee]

Stonehold would then become a longer duration SoV, only using will. (1 round / level duration, extendable)

So to melee a caster druid you would need to have mind/stun immunity, or make a reflex and a will save vs stun. Which is pretty strong.

Keeping in theme with combo's. Perhaps anything affected by stonehold becomes a 'construct' for use with crumble?

I feel the real issue here is item's granting freedom of movement, as oppose to the spell being terrible as is.

No save CC's are super, super good.

I hadn't thought about it this way; it would essentially supplant SoV as our go-to stun, and with the benefit of being a sixth-circle spell and thus not costing piety, even extended. It would also give us two persistent AoE stuns targeting two different saves. However, the counter to both would be widely available and cheap, speaking of clarity potions. Which is how it is now.

Right now I would settle for freedom items being removed and Stonehold not affecting the druid or her allies. Freedom itself is breachable (on Arelith), just not when it's on an item.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think druid would be a lot more fun to play if-

1. All druids can cast spells while shifted.
2. non-totem druids get Monk AC at X level.

I also wonder if non-totem druids could have constant buffs while in their humanoid form, called "Aspects." They could have 1 active at any time, and provide small sort buffs (like +2 Dex or +1 Dodge Armor, etc.) You have to go to a shrine of X animal or elemental to unlock the aspect which gets added to a -menu. Where you can then change them at anytime, while not in combat.

When it comes to druids, the thing from a design aspect that makes the less sense to me is the divide between druids and totem druids. If druids are all about shapes, why wouldn't you always play a totem druid? Where does that leave non-totem? In a place of "flexibility"?

But if we've already established that druids can kinda suck, that's not a very flexible position.

I'd also love to see the infinite shape shifting moved up in levels. I think you get some of them too late. And I think if druids are always about this fluidity between forms, it really should be more fluid.

But I guess if we ignore the Natural Spell suggestion for a moment, is this how druids should be classified?

- totem druids: rely on summons, buffs, and being in shifted form always, not relying a whole lot on spellcasting or humanoid combat
- non-totem druids: rely on summons, buffs, using forms to fit the situation, relies on more control and damage over time spells, can be somewhat meaty as a humanoid combatant

??

I'm always confused with druids. It's always been unclear from a mechanical stand point why you wouldn't be a totem.

I personally believe that non-totem druids should be near the realm of battle clerics in terms of viability, but of course rely on other tools besides Divine Power (mainly different spellbook and summons). But that's just me.

[Tetra]

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[Sockss]

Totems are absolutely awful, I see no reason you'd be one instead of some niche, weird builds dipping for mental stats, or in the case of taking bear. You wouldn't use bear, you'd just get +4STR/CON while in dragonshape which helps with gearing.

You just don't do any damage in shape (As you have no penetration).

Even aside from this, they're all outclassed by dragonshape.

That said, that leaves lots of room for improvement of the totem forms. Even if it was as simple as say, giving spider a Cooldown based web cast at Druid CL, with increased DC's. That would help a whole lot and be thematic. Maybe even give spider-druid outside of form infinite web casting. Super spiderman vibes.

[Tetra]

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[Wytchee]

The totems other than bear are useful if not outright overpowered. Eagle gives +12 to spot, bat has true sight, raven gives an extra skillpoint/level, +10 to lore AND +8 to listen.

My druid (raven totem) is afforded enough skill points to fill all of the druid's skills (including persuade and craft armor/weapon) and still have enough to crossclass 15 search. She is also, at level 15, capable of understanding foreign languages about 70% of the time.

There's also the oft overlooked fact that one can dip druid and take the totem pact for +4 to charisma (sorcerer) or intelligence (wizard) if one chooses parrot or rat, respectively, if you're willing to take the hit to physical stats.

Totem *forms* are useless, but the natural bonuses they get are often very useful.

But, continuing on with others' suggestions...

Blood Frenzy: perhaps have it function in a similar (but not identical) way to Divine Power? Battledruids, anyone?

It would also benefit us to have some sort of "elemental attunement" system. I already roleplay Aelwyd's various spellbooks as different "attunements" to earth/air/fire/water/balance. Maybe a command like -attune for druids, usable once per rest, which gives them persistent bonuses based on the element they choose until they rest or are killed. For instance:

-attune earth would grant 15/+3 DR and (at level 28) immunity to knockdown
-attune air would grant 50% concealment and (at level 28) haste.
-attune water would grant regeneration and (at level 28) a regeneration aura
-attune fire would grant fire biteback and (at level 28) a fire aura akin to the Tanarukk's (sp?)
-attune balance (available at level 28) I don't know. Something druid-y.

Again, just brainstorming here, so not necessarily considering balance issues.

[One Two Three Five]

I wouldn't call them useless. They aren't damage-y, sure, but even on a non-monk druid I could get my AC pretty high up there, with a huge (renewable) hp buffer. Set the rogue on -guard and let them melt spawns while my summons cleaned up.

[Tetra]

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[caldura firebourne]

The totems other than bear are useful if not outright overpowered. Eagle gives +12 to spot, bat has true sight, raven gives an extra skillpoint/level, +10 to lore AND +8 to listen.

My druid (raven totem) is afforded enough skill points to fill all of the druid's skills (including persuade and craft armor/weapon) and still have enough to crossclass 15 search. She is also, at level 15, capable of understanding foreign languages about 70% of the time.

There's also the oft overlooked fact that one can dip druid and take the totem pact for +4 to charisma (sorcerer) or intelligence (wizard) if one chooses parrot or rat, respectively, if you're willing to take the hit to physical stats.

Totem *forms* are useless, but the natural bonuses they get are often very useful.

But, continuing on with others' suggestions...

Blood Frenzy: perhaps have it function in a similar (but not identical) way to Divine Power? Battledruids, anyone?

It would also benefit us to have some sort of "elemental attunement" system. I already roleplay Aelwyd's various spellbooks as different "attunements" to earth/air/fire/water/balance. Maybe a command like -attune for druids, usable once per rest, which gives them persistent bonuses based on the element they choose until they rest or are killed. For instance:

-attune earth would grant 15/+3 DR and (at level 28) immunity to knockdown
-attune air would grant 50% concealment and (at level 28) haste.
-attune water would grant regeneration and (at level 28) a regeneration aura
-attune fire would grant fire biteback and (at level 28) a fire aura akin to the Tanarukk's (sp?)
-attune balance (available at level 28) I don't know. Something druid-y.

Again, just brainstorming here, so not necessarily considering balance issues.

-Attune balance, animals for which the druid meets the animal empathy skill requirment to dominate are non hostile to druid and party

[Sockss]

You don't /need/ spot, if you have true sight. It's an RP tool.
You don't need permanent true sight if you can just cast it.
You have enough skill points as a druid, to cover everything you absolutely need. (Conc/Disc/SC/Tumble)

Are you seriously saying raven totem is good because you can get persuade?

Renewable HP is likely a bug from saving characters which should be fixed. (Else you end up with infinite hp which is silly)

The extra DC and/or some skill points, on a caster build isn't worth the huge physical reductions. (Specifically the CON (-60 hp, -2 fort) and the awful time you'll have trying to carry anything beyond a toothpick). You also have to take a minimum of 3 druid levels from the dip, which costs you a feat (Epic for sorc, non-epic for wiz).

Totems are terrible, in and out of shapes. A cool RP path, maybe, but - they are the kensai of the caster world.

The attunements seem exceptionally good. I mean, for starters, I don't see anyone picking anything other than earth (Unless they're PvE'ing, when they choose air) and that covers your entire weakness. Should pure druids receive a cookie? Sure. Should the cookie be super-powerful and cover all the weaknesses of a class? Likely, not. Right?

[Tiefling Tea Party]

Where are these changes listed..?