About That Enchanting Suggestion

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Wytchee » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:23 am

afreshstart wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:14 am
Maybe non-focused characters can get a cool-down on their enchantment attempts, while each focus reduces the cool-down, ESF completely removing it.
this doesn't fix how garbo enchantment is
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by afreshstart » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:36 am

I don't think it's that bad. You can reliably cast hold/dominate monster on bosses such as Princess Abulan with mind fog.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:31 am

yellowcateyes wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:18 pm
1) Do you prefer a system where there is a clearer line between adventuring (combat) characters and crafting characters? Why?

2) Do you believe that being good in crafting should come at the cost of significant feat investment? What are the benefits of raising the bar of entry for participating in high-end item creation?
1: I echo thingsicantdo's sentiment here. A level thirty wizard for example (heresy, I know), with their extra metamagic feats by 20 and bonus epic feat every 3 levels after that, is not going to become non-functional by taking 3 crafting feats, they're just going to have 3 spell foci instead of 4.

On the other hand, a spell-casting focused cleric that took epic spell focus enchantment has clearly already made a great sacrifice in the combat capability of their build.

The cleanness of the line is dependent on the value of what feat the functionality is tied to, and because the enchantment school differs so starkly in use across the classes there is no consistency to who gives up what. There is a line, but it's a squiggly one that goes all over the paper, not straight across.

All casters can take up item creation feats, and all casters are giving up other metamagic feats in exchange for that, and the reward is valuable across the schools (wands, potions, and scrolls are easy to monetize and useful resources to have). I find a certain desirability in that consistency.


2: Have you ever played on a local vault where everyone can and does make optimally tailored gear for their characters?

Part of the sense of joy in getting good gear is the amount of effort it takes to get it. Sure, most of us would be thrilled to have someone hand us a set of +1 things fresh off the Cordor docks, but I suspect most of us as players given an entire suite of items at level 2 with an item level restriction of say, 20, would suddenly lose that spark of thrill when we opened a treasure chest at the end of a dungeon. Why? Because you've already got the best gear, you're just grinding to be able to use it.

The ability to customize your own equipment here at cost is an inalienable part of the balance of the server, giving everyone the ability to accentuate any two stats by a +6 swing on a permanent basis. Whether that's to hit and damage or a spell DC, that's huge. I would never suggest taking that away, because it would force a scramble to re-calibrate the challenge of everything on the server.

To get +6 to damage, you need an epic feat and a pre-epic feat. To get +4 to hit (with a single weapon type), you need TWO epic feats and a pre-epic feat. So I do believe that yes, if you want to reliably put that third stat into +6 territory on items, it is entirely reasonable you should give up a smidgen of something elsewhere in your build.




***I don't agree that it would necessarily raise the bar of entry, though. In order to take spell focus enchant, and greater spell focus enchantment, you need to be a level 1 spellcasting human, or a level 3 spellcaster. You can take epic at 21.

In order to take scribe scroll it takes a level 3 spellcaster. Scribe scroll takes a level 1 spellcaster. Level 3 is functionally the starting level of the server, so to make this identical, there would have to be a gate to not give the epic bonus until level 21 even if the character took the third feat, craft wand.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:51 pm

Idk why you'd want to switch away from enchantment, though. The school is pretty useful until it isn't (the main issue being it's pretty easy to totally neuter it at the moment) - if it were given legitimate, enchantment school related bonuses, and made to be useful all the time, it'd probably be a lot more appealing to you than it is now.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dunshine » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:15 pm

How about, we remove all current and playermade enchantment basins, and instead create enchantment pools/basins/whatever in certain places in the module. These, when reached, can be used by anyone.

We add a new meter similar to the rest meter that increases slowly over time and depletes when enchanting things in these pools. (or we tie it to the piety meter, or we use something similar to the craftskill meter, with a fixed points a day)

- We could add different tiers of pools "minor, medium, greater", the easier to reach ones will be in lower level dungeons.
- We could randomly rotate the locations of these pools like with the resources

Pros:
- Another incentive to go certain places (mini-quests basically).
- Anyone can enchant.
- It promotes forming parties to make it easier to reach the pools.
- It promotes RP to share the current location of the pools.

Cons:
- No basins around every corner to use for your convenience (is this a con?)
- Enchantment focuses still need another boon
- Powergrinders can enchant just as well as heavily RP-ed enchanter types

Enchantment Focus idea for this:
- Spell Focus Enchantment gives an option to -reveal_pool (or something) once a day, that will randomly list one of the areas with a "minor pool".
- Greater Spell Focus Enchantment will reveal a "medium pool" and Epic focus a "greater pool".
- Spell Focuses in enchantment will make the depletion of the "enchant-meter" slower, so they can enchant more items when they reach a pool then your average Joe the Barbarian. (if a crafting style meter is used instead, we could increase the maximum of their daily points based on the qty of focuses)

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:20 pm

I see a big problem in that system, in that it would lead to high levels having a reason to enter low-level dungeons if they just want some easy enchants done. Which is obviously bad for the low levels trying to level there.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by naturaly » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:25 pm

.
Last edited by naturaly on Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by afreshstart » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:38 pm

Also I think this will make enchanting even more bothersome/annoying than it is for causal players.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:40 pm

I'd rather not, only because of how much I see zinc in the module.

Jokes aside, I'd much prefer bonuses that relate to the schools actual spells than enchanting basins at all.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Ork » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:49 pm

imagine carrying all that gold for enchanting to die to abazuur

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:38 pm

Dunshine wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:15 pm
How about, we remove all current and playermade enchantment basins, and instead create enchantment pools/basins/whatever in certain places in the module. These, when reached, can be used by anyone.

We add a new meter similar to the rest meter that increases slowly over time and depletes when enchanting things in these pools. (or we tie it to the piety meter, or we use something similar to the craftskill meter, with a fixed points a day)

- We could add different tiers of pools "minor, medium, greater", the easier to reach ones will be in lower level dungeons.
- We could randomly rotate the locations of these pools like with the resources

Pros:
- Another incentive to go certain places (mini-quests basically).
- Anyone can enchant.
- It promotes forming parties to make it easier to reach the pools.
- It promotes RP to share the current location of the pools.

Cons:
- No basins around every corner to use for your convenience (is this a con?)
- Enchantment focuses still need another boon
- Powergrinders can enchant just as well as heavily RP-ed enchanter types

Enchantment Focus idea for this:
- Spell Focus Enchantment gives an option to -reveal_pool (or something) once a day, that will randomly list one of the areas with a "minor pool".
- Greater Spell Focus Enchantment will reveal a "medium pool" and Epic focus a "greater pool".
- Spell Focuses in enchantment will make the depletion of the "enchant-meter" slower, so they can enchant more items when they reach a pool then your average Joe the Barbarian. (if a crafting style meter is used instead, we could increase the maximum of their daily points based on the qty of focuses)
Too gamey and theme-park MMO for my tastes. Wouldn't want such a system in the slightest. Sorry.

I can see that being very fun in some game though, just not for me in this one.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by caldura firebourne » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:42 pm

I actually really like that idea Dunshine!
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:49 pm

-reveal pool should surely be divination, no?

I mean, I can see where that suggestion is coming from, but I'm not sure there's much of a fun factor to it.

I wouldn't be against a system like that in which you recovered stuff from dungeons you needed to enchant, that could be sold in shops... Because there are lots of people that don't like/want particularly to go out adventuring, and those are often the fixture makers, the traders, the shopfront owners, the bartenders and the like, who might use a lot of enchantmenting.

I'm also not sure how this would affect people that just really want to rename a fixture. That's a lot of work.

Other idle thought - If the nearest enchantment pool is in the Iron Mines, and I, an epic level enchanter, wish to enchant a lesser axe of bashing goblins for bob, the level 5 warrior, I'm not going to go grind my way through the Abyss to get to a super epic enchantment pool. I'm going to wander off the Iron Mines for five minutes and ruin everyone else's day. This I think, is to be discouraged.

It could be worse for sure, but I'm not gripped by it, and it does feel a bit MMOy. Enchanting should be a career option for studious wizard types, not a reward for bashing monster heads in. - And we did that with Artifacts too, and that ended badly...

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Cortex » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:49 pm

between the current and that idea ill keep the current one
:)

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:10 pm

Dunshine wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:15 pm
How about, we remove all current and playermade enchantment basins, and instead create enchantment pools/basins/whatever in certain places in the module. These, when reached, can be used by anyone.

We add a new meter similar to the rest meter that increases slowly over time and depletes when enchanting things in these pools. (or we tie it to the piety meter, or we use something similar to the craftskill meter, with a fixed points a day)

- We could add different tiers of pools "minor, medium, greater", the easier to reach ones will be in lower level dungeons.
- We could randomly rotate the locations of these pools like with the resources

Pros:
- Another incentive to go certain places (mini-quests basically).
- Anyone can enchant.
- It promotes forming parties to make it easier to reach the pools.
- It promotes RP to share the current location of the pools.

Cons:
- No basins around every corner to use for your convenience (is this a con?)
- Enchantment focuses still need another boon
- Powergrinders can enchant just as well as heavily RP-ed enchanter types

Enchantment Focus idea for this:
- Spell Focus Enchantment gives an option to -reveal_pool (or something) once a day, that will randomly list one of the areas with a "minor pool".
- Greater Spell Focus Enchantment will reveal a "medium pool" and Epic focus a "greater pool".
- Spell Focuses in enchantment will make the depletion of the "enchant-meter" slower, so they can enchant more items when they reach a pool then your average Joe the Barbarian. (if a crafting style meter is used instead, we could increase the maximum of their daily points based on the qty of focuses)
100% honesty: This system would be one of the worst updates to happen on arelith.

You'd lose all reliability of getting enchanted equipment. Making it random would cause a huge spike in price inflation for enchantments in the exact same way that adamantine has shot into the stratosphere since the random ore update. You'd have epics running around in level 3 areas because their friend with ESF enchanting said there was a pool there. Lowbies basically would be forced to rely on the randomly generated magic item system for gear (which is nice, but doesn't 100% sitting at a basin with 10k and a bunch of cloth items for +1 str/dex/whatever).

I see zero benefit to it, and a huge amount of drawback that'd make the server more irritating to play on. It'd probably have similar repercussions as Mith's anti-circlegrind script three years ago.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Diilicious » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:36 pm

Nitro wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:20 pm
high levels having a reason to enter low-level dungeons if they just want...
not to tangent the disussion but..

im forced to do this anyway to find raw alexandrite, even though i know where all of the surface alexandrite deposits are, i would get maybe 1.. or 2 and sometimes nothing at all from them, whereas if i go to the bullywugs, bloodmoons, cordor crypts, I will get more than i would get from trying to mine the ore directly. go to any surface settlements quartermaster and look in the expanded warehouses of each, there is no alexandrite anywhere.. its rediculous lol
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Tourmaline » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:48 pm

I don't really want a clunky alternative that is introduced to encourage partying up. In general mechanics that try to force grouping up is a nuisance, I think most of us have been playing this game long enough to know how to form a party if we want one and would like the freedom to take care of business alone if that's a better option (just as an example, on most workdays I can play for maybe 45 minutes which is enough time to check in with who is on, check message boards and do some crafting or a few writs, I don't want to be forced to find a party with strangers to do something basic.)

Just.. leave the idea of trying to force people to team up out of it. Factions and other alliances are very compelling on this server and should be enough reason for people to interact.

If a change is going to be made I still would hope it would be through crafting. Like.. add an Artificer profession that could create enhancements for gear, similar to permanent essences but +ability, skill etc. instead of elemental damage.

As for epic enchanters- what about being able to use Confusion Bolt (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Confusion_bolt) a few times per rest? Seems pretty strong, being a no-save touch attack, but also easily blocked in PVP like any mind affecting spell.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dunshine » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:05 pm

Good point about the high levels ending up in low level dungeons. That's a big con I missed there.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Rwby » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Tourmaline wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:48 pm
I think most of us have been playing this game long enough to know how to form a party if we want one and would like the freedom to take care of business alone if that's a better option
I just wanted to highlight this. Right now we're getting a lot of new/non Arelith players with the great EE Migration, and we're actively trying to promote the servers to a much wider audience. We can not fall into the trap of thinking about things from the perspective of players who have been here for ages and know the ropes, otherwise we risk alienating the new players.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:46 pm

Honestly having been watching the server for a while, and having actually played mass MMO's, this server is starting to feel more and more like World of Warcraft 3.0. Trying to force partying and grouping and make things much more difficult to do on your own. I feel this would be a drawback to the server, not only in forcing higher levels into lower areas and price gouging, but also in heightening the difficulty of the server in a powerful way. My level ten paladin has already required specific enchanted gear. Doing this the price would go from nine thousand gold, to fifty thousand a piece easily. That's just two stats and two skills. While a money sink is fine for epics, this would drastically hurt low levels.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Tourmaline » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:25 pm

Rwby wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:35 pm
Tourmaline wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:48 pm
I think most of us have been playing this game long enough to know how to form a party if we want one and would like the freedom to take care of business alone if that's a better option
I just wanted to highlight this. Right now we're getting a lot of new/non Arelith players with the great EE Migration, and we're actively trying to promote the servers to a much wider audience. We can not fall into the trap of thinking about things from the perspective of players who have been here for ages and know the ropes, otherwise we risk alienating the new players.
I don't think mechanically forcing parties is ever the way to do that. New players have the writ system and crafting needs and a helpful community to push them along. There could be more done specifically for them, of course, but it should be optional and fun not forcing people together to solve basic needs.

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:20 am

What if the solution is more simple?

Here's an idea. Let's keep everything how it is, because it's obvious been working just fine for a very long time. Just buff enchantment so that it's actually mechanically viable to take, and you'll see more enchanters. More enchanters = more enchanting. Problem solved, right?
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:44 am

Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:46 pm
Honestly having been watching the server for a while, and having actually played mass MMO's, this server is starting to feel more and more like World of Warcraft 3.0. Trying to force partying and grouping and make things much more difficult to do on your own. I feel this would be a drawback to the server, not only in forcing higher levels into lower areas and price gouging, but also in heightening the difficulty of the server in a powerful way. My level ten paladin has already required specific enchanted gear. Doing this the price would go from nine thousand gold, to fifty thousand a piece easily. That's just two stats and two skills. While a money sink is fine for epics, this would drastically hurt low levels.
That's news to me. I worked with the team for well over a year and am still in touch with them now. We did--and they still do believe that allowing solo or party play (at your discretion) is perfectly fine and an actual plus if it can be managed. Not everyone plays in the most populated timezones, afterall.

If anything, the trend has been for the server to become easier. Builds are stronger and there are now additional perks across the board (e.g. adventure xp, writs).

Hybrid builds (e.g. strength/charisma) have always required more gold to get running early on. This isn't new. However, some builds (e.g. AAs) have actually become cheaper to maintain. And did you know that the paladin's enhanced buffs make them more affordable to run than they were a few years, too?

If anything, Arelith has become more functional as a game, but the basic paradigm hasn't shifted much. That said, if the critique is that Arelith has become too hard, World of Warcraft may not be the best comparison to make; it's typically considered extremely forgiving, even among its own playerbase. Maybe you meant to compare Arelith to Dark Souls?

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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:45 am

What if ESF gave +2 dc (on top of what it already does) and pierced any mind wards, but the PC then gets to make 2 saves vs the spell instead of just 1. No mind ward = just 1 save as normal.

Also, some kind of cookie would be cool. Enchantment is really powerful in roleplay, but not so much mechanically. There's no way to enforce your dominate spell to control another player unless they agree to it OOCly, and there's no way to enforce suggestions/other stuff unless people agree to it, and it's probably best that way.

On top of them remaining the item enchanters, maybe they could also dominate multiple things .. and then for a long duration as permanent pets (elemental style), or just one single -dominate command that is an extra powerful dominate monster spell that lasts longer, has a higher save, stuff like that.
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Re: About That Enchanting Suggestion

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:10 am

Peppermint wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:44 am
Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:46 pm
Honestly having been watching the server for a while, and having actually played mass MMO's, this server is starting to feel more and more like World of Warcraft 3.0. Trying to force partying and grouping and make things much more difficult to do on your own. I feel this would be a drawback to the server, not only in forcing higher levels into lower areas and price gouging, but also in heightening the difficulty of the server in a powerful way. My level ten paladin has already required specific enchanted gear. Doing this the price would go from nine thousand gold, to fifty thousand a piece easily. That's just two stats and two skills. While a money sink is fine for epics, this would drastically hurt low levels.
That's news to me. I worked with the team for well over a year and am still in touch with them now. We did--and they still do believe that allowing solo or party play (at your discretion) is perfectly fine and an actual plus if it can be managed. Not everyone plays in the most populated timezones, afterall.

If anything, the trend has been for the server to become easier. Builds are stronger and there are now additional perks across the board (e.g. adventure xp, writs).

Hybrid builds (e.g. strength/charisma) have always required more gold to get running early on. This isn't new. However, some builds (e.g. AAs) have actually become cheaper to maintain. And did you know that the paladin's enhanced buffs make them more affordable to run than they were a few years, too?

If anything, Arelith has become more functional as a game, but the basic paradigm hasn't shifted much. That said, if the critique is that Arelith has become too hard, World of Warcraft may not be the best comparison to make; it's typically considered extremely forgiving, even among its own playerbase. Maybe you meant to compare Arelith to Dark Souls?

I used WoW because there is a competitive system in place and you can buy anything for the right amount of money. Arelith has a brilliant system in the crafting aspects and enabling players to make more of themselves, Dark Souls on the other hand, they literally quote that your going to die, as to with Arelith, those that play wisely and carefully, may never actually die.

My concern was addressed more towards making the system cater more to high end players directly, which creates the sense more and more that money is the only way to compete in the world, which is basically how WoW works. At level 10 in Arelith, your getting to the point you need at least the very basic enchanted gear. Though fairly if I am gonna dump money into enchanting for gear, I am gonna wanna dump it into buying one piece of near end game enchantments at a time.

Changing the enchantment focus to Dunshines request, would infact see enchanting become a pay to play service, which is not Areliths ideals. Let me explain how I see this.

1. First you find an enchanter, assuming your level 10 and want at least medium to get a half decent item done, this actually may be quite difficult as it is.

2. Finding the bin, again, this can be mitigated by the fact that if -reveal_pool was put in place, they could find one, though it may not necessarily give the one thats in the best location in regards to level range for the players.

3. Carrying the gold from point A to point B, this becomes a problem when you have to traverse the most dangerous places to get even two stats on an item and two skills, my ring for example cost me literally thirty thousand gold, my characters and anothers savings. Losing this to monsters if we both had to respawn, would be devastating and very discouraging from using the system again.

4. Prices for enchanters would sky rocket such as is the case with Adamantium as it becomes a supply and demand plus hazard pay. Really not overly worth it in the long run often for the enchanter to either waste their time in low tier dungeons, or risk their necks for high end dungeons. Thus a ring that cost me thirty thousand, could quickly wind up being eighty to one hundred thousand for time and effort.

This is what I mean by it becomes closer to WoW pay to play system. It would damage the economy set in the game currently. Discourage a lot of enchanters and I think in the long run of the system, be much harder to make work in general.

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