Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

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Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:50 pm

IIRC, the PFA/circle against alignment buffs were considered too potent for providing absolute mind immunity against an entire spell school, and their bonus was lowered to +10 will saves.

It also causes people to believe the enchantment school is useless and has spawned pages of debate about ways to alter enchantment to make it more mechanically appealing.

Would it be odd to suggest that clarity at level 3 is also a bit low level to knock out an entire school (like magic circle against alignment) and instead make it so that after it clears the initial status effects, for the remainder of its duration it provides another +5 to will saves (that can stack with the PFA chain, which is also unbreachable?)
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:01 pm

The difference between clarity and PfA is that clarity lasts rounds/level, and has a cooldown on it. Protection from Alignment, meanwhile, lasts hours/level; A wand can provide pretty permanent mind immunity. Clarity potions by design can't; there's a window where you lose clarity but can't drink another potion.


Your proposed version of clarity would be a fairly worthless spell for anything other than cleansing mental effects, and carrying it through would probably put non-casters without paladin/BG levels firmly in the dumpster.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Rwby » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:32 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:01 pm
The difference between clarity and PfA is that clarity lasts rounds/level, and has a cooldown on it. Protection from Alignment, meanwhile, lasts hours/level; A wand can provide pretty permanent mind immunity. Clarity potions by design can't; there's a window where you lose clarity but can't drink another potion.


Your proposed version of clarity would be a fairly worthless spell for anything other than cleansing mental effects, and carrying it through would probably put non-casters without paladin/BG levels firmly in the dumpster.
I dunno, Hunter. I mean yeah, they'd be mechanically weaker for sure. I just don't see this post-arelithian apocalypse where suddenly everyone decides they're only going to play character concepts that suggest at least 27 levels of mage. Clarity potions arn't even useful/required as long as there's a mage floating around whose your friend who can cast Mind Blank... Sure, PvP wise, 1 on 1, PCs will be hugely weaker to enchantment. But this is such a small part of the server, I really don't think it's that bigger deal.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:38 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:01 pm
The difference between clarity and PfA is that clarity lasts rounds/level, and has a cooldown on it. Protection from Alignment, meanwhile, lasts hours/level; A wand can provide pretty permanent mind immunity. Clarity potions by design can't; there's a window where you lose clarity but can't drink another potion.


Your proposed version of clarity would be a fairly worthless spell for anything other than cleansing mental effects, and carrying it through would probably put non-casters without paladin/BG levels firmly in the dumpster.
JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:49 pm
You can literally just pop a clarity and ignore Enchantment entirely. It can't even be breached. I don't think you see all the angles here.
JediMindTrix wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:17 pm
BrutalForce48 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:24 pm
other avenues of waiting for Clarity to drop
Are you being serious? The fight will be over. The entire time of which an entire school is totally useless. No other school has to deal with that. None.
While I see your point on paper, functionally, I disagree, for the above reasons.

Also, clarity still functions as a cleanse of such effects, which magic circle against alignment does not. It should be shorter. I am proposing that immunity to an entire spell school from a level 3 spell, however, should not exist (which mirrors all other current balance changes to spells in logic).

There are still other immunity giving spells. I think +15 to will saves from two spells under level 3 is plenty reasonable and not worthless at all, even if the +5 is limited to the duration of the clarity buff. All this does is remove the easily accessible immunity to an entire school that people seem to agree across the board is what makes enchantment useless for casters that actually have enchantment spells.

There is a dichotomy of choices here- either every character can drink a cheap potion and ignore an entire spell school, or enchantment can be useful. There is no practical way for these two choices to co-exist so long as clarity continues to provide immunity, because it can't be breached.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:41 pm

Because of the short duration of Clarity potions, they need to be used immediately before a battle starts, which can often cost you the initiative and invite extra attacks while you're stuck in place.

Lesser Mind Blank and Mind Blank are breachable. Maybe Clarity could be added to the breach list to give it some PvP balance. Still, Enchantment is pretty much death magic. Only the tankiest of tanks can survive 20+ rounds of being held. That's incredibly powerful.

Any change made to this is just going to shift players up to Lesser Mind Blank scrolls. UMD will become yet more important to every build.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:41 pm
Because of the short duration of Clarity potions, they need to be used immediately before a battle starts, which can often cost you the initiative and invite extra attacks while you're stuck in place.

Lesser Mind Blank and Mind Blank are breachable. Maybe Clarity could be added to the breach list to give it some PvP balance. Still, Enchantment is pretty much death magic. Only the tankiest of tanks can survive 20+ rounds of being held. That's incredibly powerful.

Any change made to this is just going to shift players up to Lesser Mind Blank scrolls. UMD will become yet more important to every build.
You pop a clarity against spellcasters throwing enchantment spells. If your opening round is clarity potion, you are unlikely to suffer overly from extra attacks while you do so. I also feel your comment about UMD is not reflective of the fact that pretty much everyone with some level of authority in offering build advice (I'm not one of them) will tell you that UMD is already mandatory.

I do like your idea about adding clarity to the breach list as an alternative to re-writing the whole spell script, though.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:06 pm

Rwby wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:32 pm
I dunno, Hunter. I mean yeah, they'd be mechanically weaker for sure. I just don't see this post-arelithian apocalypse where suddenly everyone decides they're only going to play character concepts that suggest at least 27 levels of mage. Clarity potions arn't even useful/required as long as there's a mage floating around whose your friend who can cast Mind Blank... Sure, PvP wise, 1 on 1, PCs will be hugely weaker to enchantment. But this is such a small part of the server, I really don't think it's that bigger deal.
Clarity potions are important for PvE too; There's a lot of mobs with mind affecting spells/bolts/auras/whatever.

Saying "just have a mage friend lul" isn't really a refutation (Or a viable answer in PvP since you brought it up). I don't know about you, but it's very rare that I make sure to bring a mage whenever I go to a dungeon, and it's poor design to require people to bring members of X class.
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:38 pm

While I see your point on paper, functionally, I disagree, for the above reasons.

Also, clarity still functions as a cleanse of such effects, which magic circle against alignment does not. It should be shorter. I am proposing that immunity to an entire spell school from a level 3 spell, however, should not exist (which mirrors all other current balance changes to spells in logic).

There is a dichotomy of choices here- either every character can drink a cheap potion and ignore an entire spell school, or enchantment can be useful. There is no practical way for these two choices to co-exist so long as clarity continues to provide immunity, because it can't be breached.
My point was that clarity is less oppressive than magic circle/protection from alignment because it lasts shorter, and you can't have 24/7 uptime on it the way you very easily could with protection from alignment. If you want to use enchantment in PvP, here's what you do:

1) Bait out a clarity potion/wand
2) Cast an extended greater sanctuary (Or use HiPS if a shadow mage)
3) Wait for the clarity to end

Assuming you've got at least 16 caster levels, your greater sanctuary will last longer than their clarity's duration, and they'll have a good thirty seconds or so where they can't drink another clarity potion.
There are still other immunity giving spells. I think +15 to will saves from two spells under level 3 is plenty reasonable and not worthless at all, even if the +5 is limited to the duration of the clarity buff. All this does is remove the easily accessible immunity to an entire school that people seem to agree across the board is what makes enchantment useless for casters that actually have enchantment spells.
+15 to will saves isn't actually that much if you've only got 12 to begin with, just because of how binary saves tend to be in 3.x. You've either got enough that you've got a decent shot at making the save cold, or you've got nothing in it and need the immunity.

That's without mentioning the action economy issue (That is to say, it's going to take you a round or two to get that +15 to your will saves while the mage needs a round to throw a hold monster/confusion your way).
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:16 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
I also feel your comment about UMD is not reflective of the fact that pretty much everyone with some level of authority in offering build advice (I'm not one of them) will tell you that UMD is already mandatory.
That's why I said "more".

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:35 pm

I've said it twice and I'll say thrice, having ESF give a % chance to penetrate the immunity seems the best route. Because it's not just clarity, the actual property Immune to Mind Affecting is on a buttload of mobs. Also, Hunter's right. It IS death magic. You don't really want to take away the one guarentee lots of people have that they won't insta-lose, but you also don't want to completely nullify a spell school, and you don't want to have mobs taking away control of a player for long periods of time (old fear anyone?) in dungeons with mind-magic. This is why I think clarity should remain as is and the % chance to penetrate immunity be added.

I'm really out of steam on this discussion though so have fun bois

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:56 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:35 pm
I've said it twice and I'll say thrice, having ESF give a % chance to penetrate the immunity seems the best route. Because it's not just clarity, the actual property Immune to Mind Affecting is on a buttload of mobs. Also, Hunter's right. It IS death magic. You don't really want to take away the one guarentee lots of people have that they won't insta-lose, but you also don't want to completely nullify a spell school, and you don't want to have mobs taking away control of a player for long periods of time (old fear anyone?) in dungeons with mind-magic. This is why I think clarity should remain as is and the % chance to penetrate immunity be added.

I'm really out of steam on this discussion though so have fun bois
This is probably the bigger reason that enchantment is a weaker school; There's lots of mobs that are just weirdly immune to enchantment spells, either specifically or general mind immunity.

Adjust the problem mobs, and enchantment becomes more valuable.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Cortex » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:04 pm

Death ward is arguably worse than clarity. Lasts hours and invisible, and makes most of the necromancy school useless (WoF taking care of the rest). I don't see anyone complaining about that though...
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:24 pm

Probably because these threads are about Enchantment and we've somehow mostly managed to stay on topic.
Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:56 pm
This is probably the bigger reason that enchantment is a weaker school; There's lots of mobs that are just weirdly immune to enchantment spells, either specifically or general mind immunity.

Adjust the problem mobs, and enchantment becomes more valuable.
I can't resist a notification apparently.

yea it would help tremendously, but then it doesn't take care of the little reason, which is clarity lol. Also it'd probably be significantly more work that hits less of the issues than coding immunity penetration which would hit all of them.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:27 pm

Cortex wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:04 pm
Death ward is arguably worse than clarity. Lasts hours and invisible, and makes most of the necromancy school useless (WoF taking care of the rest). I don't see anyone complaining about that though...
I was wondering about that as well, but I can honestly say I've only once directly witnessed death magic used in PvP, in my entire time here, and that was for a surprise gank, anyway. Fortitude saves seem to be high enough among the typical PvP builds that WotB and such just aren't worth wasting a round on. Necromancy also gets those fancy Vampire Counts to play with, while Enchantment's special bonus feature is making everyone nag you constantly about when their order will be finished.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:23 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:24 pm
Probably because these threads are about Enchantment and we've somehow mostly managed to stay on topic.
Hunter548 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:56 pm
This is probably the bigger reason that enchantment is a weaker school; There's lots of mobs that are just weirdly immune to enchantment spells, either specifically or general mind immunity.

Adjust the problem mobs, and enchantment becomes more valuable.
I can't resist a notification apparently.

yea it would help tremendously, but then it doesn't take care of the little reason, which is clarity lol. Also it'd probably be significantly more work that hits less of the issues than coding immunity penetration which would hit all of them.
I outlined how to play around clarity two posts ago as a mage, if you want.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:43 am

ya I saw that. If you insist on killing someone with enchantment sure you can wait it out. But you probably could've done the job a lot faster just by using any other school. that also kind of relies on them just standing around which while I admit I have seen way more than I thought I would of that in the last few years, still isn't likely.

EDIT: Since the point of this discussion is to make enchantment more useful and not just be straight lol-neutered I think waiting it out is an unreasonable option. You/Dev's may disagree! Ultimately I'm just thankful it's being looked at.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by dirza » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:43 am

I'll try to be as constructive as possible. I am not certain you manage to realize full impact of what you ask for, so first few questions:
1) do you really wish to see deathward / clarity on breach lists?

IF yes, allow me to tell you how would it look like.

Haste. Timestop. Mordekayn's disjunction. Death spell /fear spell (or any other will based disable). Unless target has saves up to godlike, she dies.


2 rounds of casting (haste included). There are characters with godliek saves, but they are either BG/paladin builds or years old characters who spent billions on items (and thus they deserve it, taking in question their effort) who could pass DC 40 on their lowest save. Because, lets be honest, no wizard has a single spell focus, usually has up to 3 or even 4. This allows you to pick spell fitting the target best.


Do you really wish this kind of play included?

2) There was mentioned immunity penetration.

Oh...how much is enough? 5%? 15? 70%?


If it would be 30 and less, it would be worthless to cast. You would be loosing actions used for other spells in hopes it gets trough.


If it would be above 30%, it would almost guaranteed to go trough on about 3-4 casting (two rounds only) which would fully disable majority of characters.


It is almost impossible to balance one click-die spells. DC is either too high, that it is click-to win or too low to even bother with it.


Perhaps the only solution to go, would be add some secondary, annoying (but not devastating) effect on succesful save (despite immunity on), which would render penalties of sort on target for few rounds.


Example of what i think of:

Spell focus in enchantment - enables the secondary effect to 8-9th circle.
Caster gets 10% concealment versus target.

Greater spell focus - enables the secondary effect to 7th circle.
Caster gets 20% concealment (total, stacking with other spells like displacement or improved invis)

Epic spell focus - enables it for 5-6th circle
Caster gets additional 30% concealment total.

Lasting: 1 round per feat?
"Yu have succesfully resisted attempted attack on your mind, but are left a bit dazed still, unable to fully focus on your enemie."


Necromancery:

On passing save vs death spell:

Spell focus -2 constitution

Greater spell focus -4 constitution


Epic spell focus - -6 constution (-90 HPs total, lowering fort save...)


Again, epic spell focus would enable it for the weaker death spells while basic spell focus only for the top one. While it can be negated by negative energy protection, keep in mind it can be breached. Target would get malus on HPs, loose 3 to save, and forced possible to redo negative energy ward or use restoration. And if not immunity to death, could still fail the save.
And how bout…"You just surived awfull death magic spell, and are still shaken, leaving your endurance exhausted."


As main divination spells are also countered by clarity, and death ward, it could get similar secondary effects, for example target being vulnerable to magic damage or getting penalty to enchant bonus on his weapon (reinforcing thus premotion / stoneskin effects) and damage. It would represent either caster seeing forward able to hurt him more with raw magic or foretelling his moves and evading full attacks (penalty to hit or damage).

No saves on secondary effects, and lasting limited, how long, i dont know.

Also a last note. Clarity is the only mind ward cleric has. Battlecleric has lower will, and can have it dispelled already. If it was also on breach list, even single wand of lesser breach would remove his only mind ward from him.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Peppermint » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:33 am

The problem, really, is that dispels just aren't a reliable thing on Arelith. You could make them so, but then that brings on a whole host of other problems probably best left avoided, unless the team is intent on overhauling the entire system/meta. (Spoilers: they're probably not.)

You'd probably be better off looking elsewhere for enchantment buffs (though removing mind immune from some mobs, as above, would help). For instance, I once tinkered with the notion of allowing focused enchanters to dominate multiple creatures at once. It wouldn't be huge, and it certainly wouldn't address some of the school's core problems, but it'd be a nice little boon.

Let's face it: 'enchanting' gear doesn't really work as a design paradigm for a three feat investment. (And it doesn't actually make sense for the school, anyhow.)

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:02 pm

dirza wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:43 am

If it would be above 30%, it would almost guaranteed to go trough on about 3-4 casting (two rounds only) which would fully disable majority of characters.
Someone spamming a spell over and over leaves themselves pretty vulnerable. You're ignoring the round it takes to activate haste, too. Also pretty much every counterargument I've seen seems to be predicated on the basis that your opponent is standing still and doing nothing the whole time.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong. So I think a further refinement of the 'immunity penetration' idea would be instead apply low to medium grade debuffs on the target without removing character control, with that x% chance to 'penetrate' being the chance that these debuffs are applied. Inspiration taken from lesser fear aura's current implementation.

I.E. Properly immunizing yourself to Mind Affecting will keep your characters wits about them, but a powerful enchanter can still use their spells and have an effect that is tangible and useful, and requires counterplay.

EDIT: And that can apply to Death Ward as well. Rather than instant death, give it a x% to cause 'withering' effects: fat debuffs
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:14 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:27 pm
...while Enchantment's special bonus feature is making everyone nag you constantly about when their order will be finished.
:lol:
+1
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dirac » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:56 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:14 pm
PinataPlethora wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:27 pm
...while Enchantment's special bonus feature is making everyone nag you constantly about when their order will be finished.
:lol:
+1
As if having access to some of the best gear in the game and making thousands of gold doing is some sort of detriment.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dirac » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:05 pm

I agree with PinataPlethora et al here. Mind spells are power-locked behind mind immunity spells/items for a good reason.

Two things need to be considered: how ridiculously low will saves can be (for most classes/builds), and how long the effects of mind spells last, making them practically a win button when landed.

If you start making it easier to land these sort of instant-win spells you can trash can entire builds and at the least need to start looking into reducing the power of the magic using classes as a whole because they are already very high on the spectrum.

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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:13 pm

Dirac wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:05 pm
I agree with PinataPlethora et al here. Mind spells are power-locked behind mind immunity spells/items for a good reason.

Two things need to be considered: how ridiculously low will saves can be (for most classes/builds), and how long the effects of mind spells last, making them practically a win button when landed.

If you start making it easier to land these sort of instant-win spells you can trash can entire builds and at the least need to start looking into reducing the power of the magic using classes as a whole because they are already very high on the spectrum.
I disagree. Saves are not ridiculously low, but ridiculously high except for some builds who min/max powerbuild into a very specific strength with a very strong weakness. If your cookiecutter WM has low will, that's because you built and equipped them to have low will. They are not instant win as you can save vs them, resist them, pray them off, or just crit the caster before they even finish casting it. I don't feel like magic is 'very high' on the spectrum. I feel it should be stronger. We don't expect a bard to be as dangerous 1v1 as a barbarian. Magic is supposed to be powerful and you're supposed to fear it. It's magic. Enchantment is one of those schools that is feared in the setting we play in, only on Arelith, it's not.

Could just make it so clarity potions function as normal. Mind wards are already a thing and you need to cast them before the fact, not after.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by yellowcateyes » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:21 pm

Peppermint wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:33 am
Let's face it: 'enchanting' gear doesn't really work as a design paradigm for a three feat investment. (And it doesn't actually make sense for the school, anyhow.)
This is the crux of the issue with Enchantment, and I don't believe tweaks to Clarity will address this.
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by flower » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:58 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:13 pm
Dirac wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:05 pm
I agree with PinataPlethora et al here. Mind spells are power-locked behind mind immunity spells/items for a good reason.

Two things need to be considered: how ridiculously low will saves can be (for most classes/builds), and how long the effects of mind spells last, making them practically a win button when landed.

If you start making it easier to land these sort of instant-win spells you can trash can entire builds and at the least need to start looking into reducing the power of the magic using classes as a whole because they are already very high on the spectrum.
I disagree. Saves are not ridiculously low, but ridiculously high except for some builds who min/max powerbuild into a very specific strength with a very strong weakness. If your cookiecutter WM has low will, that's because you built and equipped them to have low will. They are not instant win as you can save vs them, resist them, pray them off, or just crit the caster before they even finish casting it. I don't feel like magic is 'very high' on the spectrum. I feel it should be stronger. We don't expect a bard to be as dangerous 1v1 as a barbarian. Magic is supposed to be powerful and you're supposed to fear it. It's magic. Enchantment is one of those schools that is feared in the setting we play in, only on Arelith, it's not.

Could just make it so clarity potions function as normal. Mind wards are already a thing and you need to cast them before the fact, not after.
You are talking about characters who are around years, put millions into gear and wasted time and effort to make themselves resistent to these spells.

An avarege Bob the Weapon Master (and any other meleer with primary fortitute) on server who form majority of characters will be unable to save reliebly versus dc 36 + will save. And unless They sacrifice epic feats for saves, then have no chance of passing it (without epic gear).

Clarity is the only chance for these characters. If mind /death ward immunities are made ignored, then those guys will have time of surviving like 2 rounds and that i count even round where caster hastes himself.


And if we speak about two + years old characters who put millions into gearin. Well you must expect them to have these high saves, They worked hard for it, They spent humdreds of hours in effort to increase it.

Dr_Hazard89
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Re: Clarity -> Tied to Enchantment problems

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:20 pm

flower wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:58 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:13 pm
Dirac wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:05 pm
I agree with PinataPlethora et al here. Mind spells are power-locked behind mind immunity spells/items for a good reason.

Two things need to be considered: how ridiculously low will saves can be (for most classes/builds), and how long the effects of mind spells last, making them practically a win button when landed.

If you start making it easier to land these sort of instant-win spells you can trash can entire builds and at the least need to start looking into reducing the power of the magic using classes as a whole because they are already very high on the spectrum.
I disagree. Saves are not ridiculously low, but ridiculously high except for some builds who min/max powerbuild into a very specific strength with a very strong weakness. If your cookiecutter WM has low will, that's because you built and equipped them to have low will. They are not instant win as you can save vs them, resist them, pray them off, or just crit the caster before they even finish casting it. I don't feel like magic is 'very high' on the spectrum. I feel it should be stronger. We don't expect a bard to be as dangerous 1v1 as a barbarian. Magic is supposed to be powerful and you're supposed to fear it. It's magic. Enchantment is one of those schools that is feared in the setting we play in, only on Arelith, it's not.

Could just make it so clarity potions function as normal. Mind wards are already a thing and you need to cast them before the fact, not after.
You are talking about characters who are around years, put millions into gear and wasted time and effort to make themselves resistent to these spells.

An avarege Bob the Weapon Master (and any other meleer with primary fortitute) on server who form majority of characters will be unable to save reliebly versus dc 36 + will save. And unless They sacrifice epic feats for saves, then have no chance of passing it (without epic gear).

Clarity is the only chance for these characters. If mind /death ward immunities are made ignored, then those guys will have time of surviving like 2 rounds and that i count even round where caster hastes himself.


And if we speak about two + years old characters who put millions into gearin. Well you must expect them to have these high saves, They worked hard for it, They spent humdreds of hours in effort to increase it.
Fair point Flower, I was more concerned with what can be built to invalidate a mage and not what is most statistically common. Still, my general feeling remains that same but I think the solution should be some middle ground. Not too much one way or the other.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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