Lenses change

[MissEvelyn]

i think the development team did not change/add anything in this regard for a reason. Maybe they want to leave things as they are for now or maybe some time in the future a Rod Of Recall would replace the lenses in the shops, leaving the lenses a craftable item only, and I believe Irongron already said he likes this idea. Means lesnes are STILL a thing. Pre-loading lenses is forbidden. Logging off to avoid IC consequences is also forbidden. Lets just wait and see. Maybe the decision is not to change anything at all. It's been 3 months+
. . .

I've actually never bought lenses from NPC shops, but I definitely don't think they belong there either.

[Shiki]

As a transmuter cleric I love the idea of lenses not being a thing purely because it does make GSF and ESF Transmutation more important by proxy. As it stands, that feature is just a cute way of saving money as a perk alongside the necessity of Aura of Vitality for the build I'm currently using.

There is, of course, no reason that it HAS to be a compelling reason for the feats that it lets me teleport, because the mechanical benefits even for a non War-domain cleric or a druid are still quite large, but I like the idea that it could become one.

[hmm]

Not Consenting to PVP or Torture rp

If i'm trying to avoid either of these situations,
i would prefer to choose my location
than have them follow right behind me with a Lense.

[Nobs]

Not Consenting to PVP or Torture rp

If i'm trying to avoid either of these situations,
i would prefer to choose my location
than have them follow right behind me with a Lense.

It really seems like the people who want lenses removed are the ones who want to force us into consenting to these situations. They seem to forget we have the option of just logging off if we really want to. You can't force our consent. Even Sinfar has rules about consent. If people don't want to play murderporn with you, they don't have to. I doubt the DM's and the devs can code it so we can't just log out or walk away from the keyboard.

I thought you could get banned if you avoid situations by logging out.

[Lady Astray]

I thought you could get banned if you avoid situations by logging out.

Yep. They basically wanna take away our only way of avoiding those situations without getting banned so we can be locked in a room and forced to sit there and watch them God-emote about how they are skinning our characters alive. Maybe instead they should just take the hint that some players do not consent to torture RP. Lenses provide those players a lore friendly way out that allows them to continue being part of the narrative. If you take away lenses you not only take away their right of consent but also their ability to participate in the game.

Personally I don't mind being forced into PVP sometimes. If my character dies in battle then so be it. There's already ward against teleportation and lenses don't work once they hostile and hit you with a spell or attack. I really want nothing to do with capture/torture RP though because it is just a bunch of God-emoting and senseless violence, gore, and dismemberment. If it was done tastefully with those lightning gloves or fear magic or any of the other dozens of PG-13 ways already in the game I wouldn't be so opposed to it. But it always goes straight to chopping off fingers and gouging out eyeballs it seems.

[Lady Astray]

Basically, if other players are deciding to lens away from you, you're probably giving them a good reason to want to avoid you.

If I'm playing an elf and I'm picking flowers alone in the daytime and a dozen fully warded ogres wielding flaming greatswords come rolling up, of course I'm gonna lens away. Same would apply if I'm playing a drow and a dozen fully warded elves with longbows appear. There's no good in character reason why someone wouldn't flee in that situation. Nobody wants to get steamrolled by your huge fully warded army in a completely one-sided fight.

Pick a fight one on one with someone for a good reason other than "I'm [insert alignment]" and they'll probably be happy to PVP you. Or if you're with a large faction, try picking on another faction instead of roaming around looking for lowbies to gank. There's no shortage of good PVPers on Arelith. I've PVP'd plenty of times.

The same logic applies to capture/torture RP. If word gets out that being caught and interrogated by you is actually fun RP and that you are nice/considerate/tasteful OOC without all the excessive gore and mutilation then players will be more prone to playing along with that. If everyone keeps hearing about how you cut off someone's fingers one by one then gouged out their eyes, ripped off their lower jaw, etc. then of course they're not gonna hesitate to lens away from you at first sight.

Lenses aren't what needs changed. It is player attitudes that need to change.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Lets take a few steps back here, because this seems to be getting wildly out of hand.

We could probably do without inferring that anyone who wants lenses altered to make it harder to escape pvp situations is some kind of torture-porn sicko. That's a little bit of a ridiculous suggestion to make, and pretty offensive to a good number of perfectly alright people - So I'll just suggest we take a step or five away from that line of argument.

The issue here has nothing to do with lenses - or really all that much to do with pvp or torture rp, or whatever it is people are talking about here.

The issue is unequal agency - And the perception of having greater or lesser choice to drive RP situations in one direction or another. Conflict in RP invariably leads to situations in which a character takes action of some sort, be it political, direct and violent, deceptive, social/reputational, whatever... And when a player takes that step to do something which is directly anti another character, they are taking control. That's fine.That's an okay thing to happen. Without this, everything would get very stuck and static.

In collaborative storytelling, we need to be generous, however. We need to offer something to our collaborators. We need to offer choice, agency, control.

If one person is calling all the shots, then this is less collaborative, and more falling back to an audience/spectator dynamic, where the spectator is also the mute and inactive co-star - A pretty weird and non-interactive dynamic. So, after we initiate something, we need to find a way of offering that choice back to our collaborator, giving them the space and room to respond as they see fit, to turn and redirect the interaction and story in a direction of their choosing. This back and forth is absolutely the way any collaboration functions and works. Without this, it is not collaborative.

Sometimes, this back and forth can get a little charged, if one party or both feel that they lack the agency and choice the other party has. Now there can be a whole bunch of outcomes to this. I've listed a few below...


- One party just rolls over, saying "Oh, just do what you want".

- One party "loses", then refuses to acknowledge that as a thing that occurred

- One party complains on the forums about "lenses suck they denied me resolution and agency in conflict RP by giving the other party the ability to flee without consequence!"

- One party complains on the forum about "pvp hounding torture-porn weirdos. They denied me any agency and choice to direct the narrative about my own character."

And so on and so on...

In truth, pridefully yeeting a character with a single digit level count on a vague and wafty pretext is EXACTLY THE SAME as a saying "I should be able to take an antagonistic position inrp without being subject to potential pvp".

Both stand as attempts at taking all the choices, and ensuring the game only ever plays out to your design, giving no space, and offering your collaborator no recourse to your actions.


Do we have to accept the inRP hostility of other characters? Yes, absolutely, because it is there and it exists as a legitimate part of the roleplay dynamic.

Do we have to accept that at times a character might escape our clutches, using means available to them in game? Yes, we do... We absolutely do, because escape is also an entirely legitimate roleplay action.

To claim that this in some way means that the interaction was less impactful is absurd. A character encountered another character and some stuff happened. A character either got bashed or escaped, and either way, that is just a thing that happened and is there to be accepted as a dynamic part of an unfolding collaborative narrative. Things only ever have the narrative significance we choose to give them - And all happenings can therefore be made into impactful and significant happenings, if we choose to treat them as such... And really, we should.

If we can acknowledge one another's engagement, however fleeting, as part of a process of handing narrative agency back and forth between participants who stand on equal ooc footing, this entire lenses issue ceases to be a problem. The key to that isn't in mechanical solutions, but instead lies in educating people into a better and more mature attitude for handling IC and IG (and ooc?) conflict situations.

This need for education applies equally to the social-sandcastle-builders who think pvp is the essence of all evil, and to those with an aggressive playstyle, who think that the world should get out of their way or perish. The fact that the argument between these two opposing attempts to seize control over how the game is played has spilled out into this ooc means of communication is a sign of a very deep disconnect, and that troubles me rather more than any nonsense about lenses and how they might or might not be changed... And that concern cuts right to the core of why I have found myself less and less enchanted with this place over the last three or four months.

(Edited repeatedly for typos and clarity - because my keyboard is making choices all of its own, god damnit.)

[The GrumpyCat]

Yep. They basically wanna take away our only way of avoiding those situations without getting banned so we can be locked in a room and forced to sit there and watch them God-emote about how they are skinning our characters alive. Maybe instead they should just take the hint that some players do not consent to torture RP. Lenses provide those players a lore friendly way out that allows them to continue being part of the narrative. If you take away lenses you not only take away their right of consent but also their ability to participate in the game.

First off - for the record I like lenses and don't want to see them change. And I actually agree with you in that this is an issue down to player attitude, not the existance of lenses, however you look at it.

That being said something needs clarifying

Yes. Logging to avoid PvP is lame and a rules break.

However if a player is breaking out torture rp you really don't feel comfortable with then my suggestion is:
Step 1) Screenshot it.
Step 2) - Either ask the player to please tone it down (If you think it's within bounds, but just too much for you - you'll be suprised about how accomodating most players are!) and/or if you think it's way out of bounds - Report it
Step 3) If said player refuses to tone it down, then initiate PvP.

Why initiate PvP?
If you got into the position where your character is being tortured, then either a) you went willingly and there was no initial pvp with that character or b) You agreed to wave the 24 hours rule for pvp to continue the scene. If both parties agreed to waver the 24 hours rule, then that means that ALSO means that you are both free to pvp each other again, so you're in the clear there too.
If the player pvped you, then raised you without consent for torture rp, you should be reporting that to us.

Finally remember - if you were pvped, you can always say 'no' to the raise, and then just respawn. And thus avoid any sort of torture rp that way. And if you weret' pvped, again nothing forces you to go along with any sort of torture rp either.

[Lady Astray]

Great posts from both DM Grumpycat and Aodh Lazuli.

[Kalopsia]

If I'm playing an elf and I'm picking flowers alone in the daytime and a dozen fully warded ogres wielding flaming greatswords come rolling up, of course I'm gonna lens away. Same would apply if I'm playing a drow and a dozen fully warded elves with longbows appear. There's no good in character reason why someone wouldn't flee in that situation. Nobody wants to get steamrolled by your huge fully warded army in a completely one-sided fight.

If I’d lense in either of these moments, I’d always wonder which (potentially awesome) RP or opportunity for character development would’ve awaited me if I hadn’t. That’s why I usually try to trust in my fellow players and play out such situations rather than avoiding them entirely.

Wouldn’t it be more interesting to see a Drow that surrenders when confronted by an overwhelming army? Perhaps lying and pretending to worship Eilistraee in an attempt to convince the Elves to let them go?
Or an Elf that begrudgingly trades information to avoid certain death. Imagine all the internal conflict and how guilty the character might feel afterwards for this decision. Much potential character development!

However, both scenarios would require people to trust in each other’s roleplay. If the Ogres expect a lens, of course they’ll be quick to hit the hostile button. Meanwhile, if the Elf expects to be killbashed, of course the lens seems like a better option than respawn penalties.


TL;DR: Trust your fellow players and always try to make conflict fun for both sides. :)

[The GrumpyCat]

If we can acknowledge one another's engagement, however fleeting, as part of a process of handing narrative agency back and forth between participants who stand on equal ooc footing, this entire lenses issue ceases to be a problem. The key to that isn't in mechanical solutions, but instead lies in educating people into a better and more mature attitude for handling IC and IG (and ooc?) conflict situations.

This need for education applies equally to the social-sandcastle-builders who think pvp is the essence of all evil, and to those with an aggressive playstyle, who think that the world should get out of their way or perish. The fact that the argument between these two opposing attempts to seize control over how the game is played has spilled out into this ooc means of communication is a sign of a very deep disconnect, and that troubles me rather more than any nonsense about lenses and how they might or might not be changed... And that concern cuts right to the core of why I have found myself less and less enchanted with this place over the last three or four months.

I just want to quote this 'cos I love it so much!

[Let Love In]

Portal lens = instant-real-life-child-caused-in-game-death-prevention-device. Recall wands would work just as well, but us players with families need SOMETHING. I use multiple portal lenses a week due to child interruptions.

[Lady Astray]

Yeah there have also been times where I'd be in the middle of some really dangerous place like RDI when suddenly I get a knock on my door and it's my friends or family coming over unannounced and interrupting my game time. It is really annoying but portal lenses let me at least get my character somewhere safe so I can entertain my company without knowing I'm gonna immediately die soon as they leave and I log back in the game.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Having played two villians, one a wm and one an abj cleric. Id say epic abj focus is core to any aspiring villian. You want to see people take the threat of pvp seriously? Stop their ability to lens out instantly. While i will admit, plenty of players are more then willing to attempt to one line you.

[Aodh Lazuli]

You want to see people take the threat of pvp seriously? Stop their ability to lens out instantly.

I mean... I'm not really sure how to respond to this except with my entire previous post, yanno?

[Arienette]

Today I had my first PvP that didnt end in someone dying.

The escape was due to HIPS (not lens) but while it was initially frustrating, it gives my character a nemesis to watch out for, etc.

It all comes down, again, to how much we trust our fellow players.

In this case, the other player initiated PvP for good IC reason. They realized after a decent fight that they werent likely to win and ducked out

No harm no foul. I could see how this char could in the future:

1. Avoid PvP
2. Engage in PvP but duck out every time because they dont get lucky.

I can see how #2 could get old if repeated over and over. Especially if fueled by a 3k gold NPC unlimited item.

I dont know what the answer is here, but i think it is reasonable for a player to not-want folks to escape them easily. And it isnt always because we are addicted to PVP, torture RP, etc.

When wandering a dungeon, im looking for reasons NOT to PvP randoms. If they initiate PvP and then duck out when they realize they are in over their heads, I can see how that would become annoying.

[Lady Astray]

Today I had my first PvP that didnt end in someone dying.

The escape was due to HIPS (not lens) but while it was initially frustrating, it gives my character a nemesis to watch out for, etc.

It all comes down, again, to how much we trust our fellow players.

In this case, the other player initiated PvP for good IC reason. They realized after a decent fight that they werent likely to win and ducked out

No harm no foul. I could see how this char could in the future:

1. Avoid PvP
2. Engage in PvP but duck out every time because they dont get lucky.

I can see how #2 could get old if repeated over and over. Especially if fueled by a 3k gold NPC unlimited item.

I dont know what the answer is here, but i think it is reasonable for a player to not-want folks to escape them easily. And it isnt always because we are addicted to PVP, torture RP, etc.

When wandering a dungeon, im looking for reasons NOT to PvP randoms. If they initiate PvP and then duck out when they realize they are in over their heads, I can see how that would become annoying.

This actually sounds like an awesome Saturday morning cartoon villain type of situation that I'd love to participate in. Portal lenses actually seem to be helping the narrative here rather than harming it.

[Kreindis]

I have a suggestion even though that's not the point of this that I thought of just a few hours ago.

The shovel item forces an emote when you "dig". I wonder if this is possible to implement on the lense? Yes, people will still teleport nearly immediately but at the very least it'll be possible to see if someone is loading up a lense. Which is personally the most egregious use of it to me. Which is also to say that I don't mind people lensing at the sight of encroaching hostile players. Some people like to fight, others don't. It might be IC, it might be OOC. I don't really think it matters at the end of the day if they do that before anyone even types a single line of dialog or an emote.

What I do mind are people that game in-game tools to ensure that they'll always have the advantage. In this case, it is always having a way out while at the same time, getting the interaction that "they" want.

[GwaiLo]

I would love portal lenses to have a 5% failure where you end up somewhere random.

[Vrass]

They already have a 50% chance of not working... i have used lenses lots of times and in about half of those uses it did nothing at all except being used up. Hell one time three of them failed to work in a row which stranded me in a bad area.

[DM Eyeball]

They already have a 50% chance of not working... i have used lenses lots of times and in about half of those uses it did nothing at all except being used up. Hell one time three of them failed to work in a row which stranded me in a bad area.

That... sounds like unintended behaviour. Can you please monitor this and compile bug reports, when you have a chance?

Also, does anyone get the same oddities? A 50% fail-rate in a normal use case (meaning: not in pvp, not moving, not lagging badly, and within a teleport-enabled area) seems excessive.

[Xerah]

That is, without a doubt, an exaggeration that is nowhere close to reality.

[LittleWeasel]

They already have a 50% chance of not working... i have used lenses lots of times and in about half of those uses it did nothing at all except being used up. Hell one time three of them failed to work in a row which stranded me in a bad area.

That sometimes can happen due to lag. Particularly if your destination is on one of the other servers.
If that happens, wait for the “lost item” in your combat log. Do not move. Log out. Log back in on your destination server. You will log in in the portal spot for which you clicked on the dislogue.

The moment you have clicked on the dialogue option, that new location is saved on your character hide. Meaning, if you do not move, or type -save, the new location goes with you as you log out and log back in.

For those lag induced fails to portal, that’s a good work around to that bug.

[Vrass]

I will try that next time then and keep an eye out for more occurrences.