Monk: Eyes

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Marla McGivers
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Monk: Eyes

Post by Marla McGivers » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:04 pm

As soon as my Monk reached level 20 people's reactions to her changed. What had once been serious interactions became finger pointing, sighs and being taken less seriously by others.

I'm well aware of the reasons behind the eye Colour change, but I believe it affects role play and not for the better.

Yes I can use a helmet that covers the glow but once removed the problem returns.

We already change things to benefit enjoyment over reason, for example we can wear helmets and cloaks that are made invisible, so can we not remove the glowing eyes or at least make them optional?

If it's not mechanically possible then I find myself at a crossroads with my character and would appreciate any advice my fellow players may have.
Last edited by Marla McGivers on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Aftond » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:14 pm

I see a solution in this making them like to warlock eyes, toggleable.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by good man of god » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:15 pm

I get your point here, but I don't think these should just be removed.

Optional? Like Warlock eyes? Maybe.

The issue is, an epic monk has ascended to being an outsider. Is it logical that they can just hide that fact about themselves? I'm unsure.

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Aftond
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Aftond » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 pm

From what I understand, a monk that reaches epics has developed such a control over their bodies that they ascend. Which in turn gives them uncontrollable eye glow. I find that strange.

Not giving monks a noticable difference from this ascension might be a gamble, but it can also allow for some character development in the hands of the player instead of the game.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:55 pm

just toggle a helmet invis there is your fix
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:38 pm

"People react to something IC, and I don't like their reaction. Maybe we should change the game so I don't have to deal with it."

That does not strike me as the spirit of Arelith. If you don't like something IC, work on changing it, IC. What you see is what you get.

That being said, I could potentially see canonical reasons and roleplay to be gained from changing it. Subterfuge, mainly. Hiding your alignment or status as a monk. In which case, like someone else suggested, have it akin to a warlock, and perhaps--not toggle based--but whenever "ki abilities" are used, have the monk's eyes flare. Things like activating flurry of blows, stunning strike, empty body, Wholeness of body, and all the other monk abilities. Is this worth a dev's time to code though? I dunno. Kinda doubt it. Especially because I imagine it would need to include things like Missile Deflection, which isn't exactly something we as a player have control over our monks with. It proc's on any missile attack. Would that make the monk's eyes flare too?

Anyways, that's my two cents.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:01 pm

From what I understand, a monk that reaches epics has developed such a control over their bodies that they ascend. Which in turn gives them uncontrollable eye glow. I find that strange.
This is the crux of the matter imo

Warlocks, bastions of uncontrollable eldritch power, can hide their eyes at whim.

Wild Mages, bastions of uncontrollable Arcane Power, can forcibly surge, and at high levels, produce an exact desired result.

Monks, masters of body, mind, and spirit, able to resist spells, be immune to poisons, diseases, perform massive supernatural feats ... can't not make their eyes glow a very specific color that has to do with their metaphysical ethos.

It's incongruent.

It's also hardcoded to the Perfect Self feat, from what I understand.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:30 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:38 pm
"People react to something IC, and I don't like their reaction. Maybe we should change the game so I don't have to deal with it."

That does not strike me as the spirit of Arelith. If you don't like something IC, work on changing it, IC. What you see is what you get.
Base game mechanics are changed for OOC reasons all the time. Not too many classes are stock NWN at this point and it's not because our characters worked to change things in game, it's because Devs discuss what is fun and balanced and good for the culture often based on discussions in the forum like this. This isn't against the spirit of Arelith at all. The spirit is getting behind the hood of a nearly 20 year old game and making tweaks.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 am

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:30 pm
Base game mechanics are changed for OOC reasons all the time. Not too many classes are stock NWN at this point and it's not because our characters worked to change things in game, it's because Devs discuss what is fun and balanced and good for the culture often based on discussions in the forum like this. This isn't against the spirit of Arelith at all. The spirit is getting behind the hood of a nearly 20 year old game and making tweaks.
I think I agree, generally, with the sentiment that sometimes things need to be updated. And OP forgive me for assuming the worst, but what you're talking about here Shanties, isn't what I was drawing into question. The OP's opening line makes it appear like this topic is more born from IC strife, than holistic OOC considerations. That's why I went on further to mention how I imagined it might be done. Not because I don't think it shouldn't, just that I'm not sure the OP's heart is in the right place.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by three wolf moon » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:54 am

These are buggy with various heads anyway. The 1.69 heads, especially, often end up with glowy cheeks instead of eyes. If these could be removed, that would be neat.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Marla McGivers » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:53 pm

CosmicOrderV, I'm raising the issue because I have encountered it myself. I certainly didn't think of it before this happened, so does that mean my "heart isn't in the right place "?

I don't know, to be honest. What I felt was that after 19 levels of interaction whereby my character's morals were never questioned, I found that as soon as she hit level 20 attitudes changed and not because of role play , not because of dialogue or interaction but because an ooc thing called a level changed.

That doesn't strike me as role play.

Can I deal with it IC? Yes, of course I can.

I just think we shouldn't have to change role play based on an ooc mechanical event we have zero control of.

As has been said we charge things all the time for balance and for enjoyment.

I think a toggle would assist role play, not hinder it.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:58 pm

I hear ya Givers. I guess I would like to think that hitting level 20 Monk ought to be something significant to the character.

And if I may hazard a guess,
It's because warlocks also have glowy eyes, and warlocks are stigmatized.
Therefore, anyone with glowy eyes tends takes a hit to social standing until proven otherwise (at least, if you're on the surface). As others have mentioned, this is meant to represent their sort of alien nature. Ascension to the status of an outsider. Outsiders, and those associated with them, tend to have visual tells. Tieflings, Aasimar, warlocks, demons, devils, devas, and archon all have some sort of visual distinction that differentiates themselves from a normal humanoid. Horns, hooves, wings, glowing, halo, dog-head, tentacle arms, tail, glowy eyes, ect.

Notice too that outsiders tend to be grouped by alignment? And monks also have a specific eye glow according to alignment. Monks are supposed to be all about harnessing their own ki, or life-force, and I would wager that once they reach the point of becoming more attuned with that life-force, than their own physical body (ie: become an outsider), something visual about their person ought to change.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Ragir » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:59 pm

I have actually resisted making a monk myself just for this very reason. Monk is easily my favorite class to play but in my experience once you hit level 20 all RP changes as directed towards you.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Marla McGivers » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:18 pm

It's not really about being an Outsider that concerns me. I have played Aasimar and Tiefling (who had horns) it's about having your alignment on display for everyone to see.

Any subterfuge is more or less gone when people see red eyes and immediately go "Oh you're evil"

At any rate, I just wanted to say I felt it ruined role play, in my opinion, but it's up to the Devs if they want to make any changes.

Thanks for your opinion though I'll take it on board.

Marla
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Dragonfyre » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:20 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:01 pm
It's also hardcoded to the Perfect Self feat, from what I understand.
^ not something easily removed for the above reason.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Marla McGivers » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:36 pm

Dragonfyre wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:20 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:01 pm
It's also hardcoded to the Perfect Self feat, from what I understand.
^ not something easily removed for the above reason.
... or if it's possible to be changed :D
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Richørd » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:45 am

I think monks should remain easy to recognize and should keep their ascendant glowy eyes.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:21 pm

I have always been of the opinion that what you see is what you get. However, that being said, why would you know alignment based on glowy eyes? Yes, we the players know this is a mechanic, but why would characters know this? This is the question I ask myself about many other aspects of mechanics to RP that live in a similar gray area. Is this going to stop people using the glowy eyes as an alignment detector? Probably not.

I asked the same of warlock eyes when they first were introduced. In fact, my usual beef with Warlock hunt RP usually isn't that the characters are looking for warlocks, it's the fact the characters tend to be really really good at identifying every part of a warlock in ways that mechanically make sense to us, but logically don't make a lot of sense to other characters.

The reason I bring that up is because the monk glowing eyes are the same visually, which makes things all the more awkward that a person focused on perfection of the body and mind to ridiculous levels originally had a unique trait just to the class, that now shares it with people that make deals otherwordly beings and are transformed by Eldritch Pacts. And since everyone in RP is going to tell you the first thing you see in Warlocks is the glowing eyes... When a Monk hits 20, the first RP focus is going to be on just that.

If you treat monks like warlocks on first sight, you're applying RP logic, but then you create the same scenario of treating all ascended monks as potential warlocks all the time, which is going to get really old, really fast.

If you somehow know a Monk's Good/Law/Evil alignment by eye color alone, then it seems absolutely farfetched to me. Even if other monks tell you it, which again goes into the bigger question of "How do they know that? Because they are that?" What is the limit on knowledge of character classes on lore and in playing a class itself? To me, the easy answer is to stick with the fun route, better to RP not knowing than knowing it all, and to allow a healthier interaction on mechanical ignorance. But to each their own. This is an issue where the individual having to deal with it, the monk, really has 0 control of the reaction of others, and honestly, it kind of bites because what is expected is knowledge of all mechanics in RP.

Only the playerbase can make a decision as a whole on what to do about it.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Marla McGivers » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:54 pm

Disciprine Come From Within wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:21 pm
I have always been of the opinion that what you see is what you get. However, that being said, why would you know alignment based on glowy eyes? Yes, we the players know this is a mechanic, but why would characters know this? This is the question I ask myself about many other aspects of mechanics to RP that live in a similar gray area. Is this going to stop people using the glowy eyes as an alignment detector? Probably not.

I asked the same of warlock eyes when they first were introduced. In fact, my usual beef with Warlock hunt RP usually isn't that the characters are looking for warlocks, it's the fact the characters tend to be really really good at identifying every part of a warlock in ways that mechanically make sense to us, but logically don't make a lot of sense to other characters.

The reason I bring that up is because the monk glowing eyes are the same visually, which makes things all the more awkward that a person focused on perfection of the body and mind to ridiculous levels originally had a unique trait just to the class, that now shares it with people that make deals otherwordly beings and are transformed by Eldritch Pacts. And since everyone in RP is going to tell you the first thing you see in Warlocks is the glowing eyes... When a Monk hits 20, the first RP focus is going to be on just that.

If you treat monks like warlocks on first sight, you're applying RP logic, but then you create the same scenario of treating all ascended monks as potential warlocks all the time, which is going to get really old, really fast.

If you somehow know a Monk's Good/Law/Evil alignment by eye color alone, then it seems absolutely farfetched to me. Even if other monks tell you it, which again goes into the bigger question of "How do they know that? Because they are that?" What is the limit on knowledge of character classes on lore and in playing a class itself? To me, the easy answer is to stick with the fun route, better to RP not knowing than knowing it all, and to allow a healthier interaction on mechanical ignorance. But to each their own. This is an issue where the individual having to deal with it, the monk, really has 0 control of the reaction of others, and honestly, it kind of bites because what is expected is knowledge of all mechanics in RP.

Only the playerbase can make a decision as a whole on what to do about it.
Thank you for putting it better than I could.
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:45 pm

My characters who aren't very worldly or well versed in lore react poorly to red-glowy eyed monks not because they know it means they're evil, but because someone who literally has glowing red eyes is hella spooky.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by McDuck » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 pm

People hardly can see the difrence between neutral or evil, as manny know ameniel was a monk. Stepped down from that path cause people kept saying oooooh warlock. Or oooh evil. Wile she was compleetly neutral and had Purple glowing eyes. So yeh, interactions defently change when they accent. No worries. It is not only you who has had trouble with this. Only monks that are accepted are the “good” ones. Cause ther eyes are blue. So i am all up for this change. I would love it that it would be possible to just togle the glow on or of

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Yma23 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:25 pm

Speaking purely personaly, I wouldn't mind monk eyes being togglable either - even if it was based on having certain points in bluff, or a feat, or something like that. And I play a Lawful Good monk!

But that said, I recognise this desire is mostly based from personal placement, so I won't be too broken up if it never happens.

Something to keep in mind when the Suggestion Box gets reopened.

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:00 pm

Richørd wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:45 am
I think monks should remain easy to recognize and should keep their ascendant glowy eyes.
I mean... Never mind the other signs, like the movement speed... Right?
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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Nitro » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:03 pm

To be fair that can already be turned off with -naturalwalk

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Re: Monk: Eyes

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:27 pm

I am curious as to why Richord thinks monks - and very specifically monks - must be detectable, though.
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