Nerf this

[-XXX-]

No, I know how to use timestop scrolls.

[Tarkus the dog]

While I do think paladins are a strong class (they always have been, really) I don't think its the holy sword tweaks that make it so. Its good for one thing, killing clerics. Which is fine, every class should have their weaknesses. You need to hit a wizard to dispel it, and if you are hitting a wizard with a pally they were dead anyways, dispels maybe just sped it up by half a round.

Paladins can dispel anything. Anything. Anything that literally didn't take abjuration, greater abjuration, arcane defense: abjuration, thus giving them 32 CL. Any class that has less than 30 CL will instantly lose all of their buffs, on spot. CL 30 characters will lose their buffs over time, but they /will/ lose them. This is not a small thing. You really can't argue that holy sword is 'only' good at killing clerics. It's good at killing /anything/, because it has such an easy time dispelling characters, mundane CL or not. It is, absolutely, the crux of what makes paladins overpowered. Overpowered. Not strong, not too powerful -- Overpowered.

Dispel on hit is huge. There is a reason this was removed from Spellswords. Extra CL was also removed from spellswords. Paladins, on the other hand, are given a special treatment. Why?

[Cerk Evermoore]

No, I know how to use timestop scrolls.

Your example proves invalid because if we're arguing people who /know better./ They'd just counter your timestop with another timestop.


Also I kill people all day with EDK. Even if they use two actions to dispel it that's a net positive in the battle for tempo.

[Astral]

2) I dont belive....I call it bull****.....

But I JUST said my 39 ab, 73 ac paladin-dip fighter cant kill that thing. he's not lying. No one posting here with some kind of malicious intent. People bring up what they have experienced in game.

[Shadowy Reality]

As mentioned before, Paladins have:

Great AB - mostly thanks to divine favor, even better when smiting
Great Saves - CHA to saves
Great Damage - while they do not have WM levels of damage, it comes close, 5 from divine favor and them ¬9 from Cha due to divine might
Great AC - same ac as any mundane +Cha mod due to divine shield

If you look at the current meta builds, divine fighters have pretty much replaced the old cookie cutter WM, and it is not because the divine fighter is weaker, that's for sure. Paladins actually have a very solid spell list, they don't need Holy Sword to totally trash magic, they would be totally viable and still very good without it. The Blackguard versions have basically no spells and still perform very well after all.

In regards to EDK. It is great for PvE bosses. And it is good for PvP against people who don;t know what they are doing. You don't fight the dragon, you either kite it or you mords + wof it away. It is actually quite useless against anyone who knows what they are doing. I could see the damage being toned down a bit, they dont need to dish out WM levels damage, but their AB should remain a threat.

---------------------------------
Sort of a side rant: I am in agreement with Durvayas, over the years the numbers across the board have only increased, Arelith PvP has always been burst based, which I always found obnoxious.

A WM can two shot a mage that does not max Con. Mages are in a terrible position for ages, DC spells don't work because saves are so high, they are reduced to EDK, Evo combos and haste buffs support. Clerics have pretty much vanished because their windup just makes them useless in this quick burst environment. Rogues can come out of stealth and pretty much burst anyone down. Throw a grenade down and sneak some more.

We have done good things, like removing Physical damage from Timestop, reducing the usage of True Seeing, there are many more things that could be toned down and are not, and I wonder if it us just because someone hasn't made a giant thread about it.

[Astral]

Clerics have pretty much vanished because their windup just makes them useless in this quick burst environment

Paladins have about as long of a windup time as clerics. That's at least my argument for why they arent that strong. While they windup, a lot can be done as a counter measurement against them. And I will say again, I've never seen a paladin rekts villains in pvp. They win sometimes, sure, but they dont rekt pvp like pale masters, druids and wild mages who destroy entire parties single-handed.

[-XXX-]

No, I know how to use timestop scrolls.

Your example proves invalid because if we're arguing people who /know better./ They'd just counter your timestop with another timestop.


Also I kill people all day with EDK. Even if they use two actions to dispel it that's a net positive in the battle for tempo.

If they manage to time it right and pull that off, I'd argue that they deserve the win.


As for matters regarding balance and what is OP it all boils down to options.
Is EDK cheesy because it's a "one click win button"? Same can be argued about KD or implosion or a wide variety of other skills and mechanics - point being, yes the game includes cheesy tricks that are easy to perform.

Whether these tricks are truly OP or not usually depends on what you can do as an opponent. When it comes to EDK, there are ways to counter it, you can kill it, you can kill it's summoner and you can run away from it - in my book that's way more options than most of the cheesy tactics offer you (can you say the same about being KD spammed by an assasin from stealth or having the EVO combo executed on your toon for instance?)

[Aftond]

I would like to point out that mords + WoF is only a 60% to counter the dragon.

[-XXX-]

I would also like to point out that mords + WoF is only a 60% to counter the dragon.

Yes, that's called variance. It often comes up in games, especially when dice rolls are involved. It's primary function in gaming is to lower the gap between players with different levels of player skill actually.

[Astral]

I read all of this and I'm now even more convinced that EDk is over powered. I dont even care if it becomes immune to WoF, if it's dps is tweaked. I hear comparisons to other "click to win" bottons like KD and and insta-death magic... well... you need to build an entire character to get high DC on those death magics. you need to build an entire character to have high ab. You can gear and build your character to be protected against those spells and to have high discipline against KD but you cannot do anything except wasting 2 PRECIOUS rounds on using 2 scrolls to have a 60% chance to get rid of the dragon that is only 1 epic feat investment, and that's just bad for the game. Period.

[DirtyDeity]

I would also like to point out that mords + WoF is only a 60% to counter the dragon.

Yes, that's called variance. It often comes up in games, especially when dice rolls are involved. It's primary function in gaming is to lower the gap between players with different levels of player skill actually.

The point is that to reliably get rid of the dragon (that is attacking you with 45~ ab and 40 average damage on his in the meanwhile, btw) you need to spend 1 round mording it and 2 rounds (on average) using Word of Faith scrolls.

That's 3 rounds of you (not in improved expertise, because you can't have that while casting from scrolls), getting chomped by a massive dragon AND being cast on by a mage (who isn't sitting their scratching their head for 3 rounds).

Not to even mention that EDK reaches it's full capacity as soon as you get ESF conj, which could be as soon as level 23.

Try pitting a full-power EDK against a level 23 character. Most people on this server aren't level 30, and they stand no chance against a mage their level if he has EDK in the low epics.

(An edk would probably kill a level 23 character trying to dismiss it long before it finishes doing that. Wouldn't take more than 2 rounds at most with 40 damage hits and over 100 damage crits)

Besides, the argument isn't that EDK CAN'T be handled with.

The issue is that EDK is a function that's available at a -single- click of a button, and one HAS to be a good player to deal with it. Most people on this server aren't really good at PvP, since they come here for roleplay. It's not fair to give every mage an ability that instantly destroys every bad PvPer with no more effort than a single click of a button.

I support this idea just as well as I support the idea to change holy sword and monolithic druids, for the same reason I'd be delighted to see classes like weapon masters changed or nerfed.

I think that in a roleplay server that prioritizes roleplay and plot-development over PvP combat, avoid giving 'pub-stompy' abilities to anyone, so no one can single handedly and really easily destroy people just because they aren't good players.

I agree with Durvayas on this one. Take the power creep backwards, so fights are less explosive and mechanically stressing, and people have hope of actually including roleplay and enjoyment into their conflict, even if they are violent.

[Shadowy Reality]

I think that in a roleplay server that prioritizes roleplay and plot-development over PvP combat, avoid giving 'pub-stompy' abilities to anyone, so no one can single handedly and really easily destroy people just because they aren't good players.

I agree with Durvayas on this one. Take the power creep backwards, so fights are less explosive and mechanically stressing, and people have hope of actually including roleplay and enjoyment into their conflict, even if they are violent.

So many times this.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

I haven't really seen Holy Sword turn the tide in mass PvP. I have seen Dragon Knight curbstomp entire groups of warded epics because the caster was impossible to kill.

Dragon Knight in it's current state is an "I win" Button. I'll call it exactly what it is. It's a one handed Barbarian/Weaponmaster that somehow could afford high Str and Con and runed up every piece of uni save gear possible that makes sure to drop a greater spell breach and run at your face, with the advantages and disadvantages of being a giant hitbox. It does have weaknesses. It's got poor AC so if you throw it out in an open area with a lot of mobs, that dragon is going to die fast. It takes 2 rounds for the dragon to wind up before attacking, and it has the dumb NWN AI, meaning a little micromanagement with the tool is going to be needed sometimes. But that's it. Clerics are the only class with a built in option of handling them once they are out. They are too durable and damaging to be ignored, and even in PvE they are a mess because they can trivialize content when they are out in the right situation. And often when a caster drops dragon knight, they tend to rest right after use because it is their ace in the hole.

I get why there is so much fear about nerfing dragon knight. Arcane Casters are on a dangerous edge where that summon is really their best option. Clerics and Druids could manage without it easier. Palemaster is still as absurd as it is IMO because they have access to it.

And since this is a numbers game, let's look at those numbers.

470 HP
37 AC

20 Fort
15 Reflex
19 Will

36 AB

15 DR. 35% physical immunity. 32 SR, True Seeing. Fear Aura

On top of that, it can be boosted with Epic Progression and Epic Conjuration to provide:

+8 AC

+8 Saves

+10 AB

+240 HP

I think anyone expecting to fight a magic user that has a summon with over 700 hp, 35% damage immunity, Stealth Detection, 100+ damage criticals with 46 AB base is going to find that a little ridiculous to handle. It might have dumb AI but I don't know of a melee build that has all those capabilities with all that magical resistance.

I think before any nerfs happen, we need to know what the summon is intended for in situational play and what weaknesses would be fair to provide it that keeps it powerful, useful, a good option to have, but doesn't win the majority of encounters it is dropped in by itself. But, when it's counters are either a Cleric or UMD with lots of money to burn, that's not really a fair counter. I'd at least like it to have vulnerability to banishment by an epic abjurer for example. It still should be powerful, but it does need some tweaks to be fair.

[TroubledWaters]

Why are you fighting the dragon and not just smashing the caster into oblivion?

You know that things do get unsummoned when you kill the summoner, right?

[Kreydis]

Why are you fighting the dragon and not just smashing the caster into oblivion?

You know that things do get unsummoned when you kill the summoner, right?

I have seen Dragon Knight curbstomp entire groups of warded epics because the caster was impossible to kill.

Let me list out a reason why you're not killing 90% of wizards clerics or sorcerers.

Extended Greater Sanctuary (Who's only counters are preemptive counter-spelling, presuming they didn't some how mess up their instant cast timestop, or spell failure, and I don't see many of you using taunt on a regular basis, let along getting it off before they cast timestop). You can cast that. Drop EDK in it, and the party's only option is to kill the dragon, Mords+WOF it, or run. And guess what, if you're solo, running is probably going to be your death, because if you're running from a EDK dragon, you're probably not geared enough or high enough level to resist any equal level or greater immobilization spell.

The other 10% is timestop and them running away.

Clerics have the added benefit of almost always being AC tanky as hell with G-restore and heal spells.

Let's talk about PM's then? Let's not talk about PM's. You're literally sneak immune, movement impairment immune (for the most part) and also have the AC of a decent fighter at worst. (Not to mention 90% of Wizards and sorcs have the constitution of a god damn dwarven defender.)

Druids? Literally elemental shape. Sure you could mords them to make the fight more fair, but it's not just EDK you're fighting at that point. The animal companions have bloody AA AB. It's actually insane. (Unless that was stealth nerfed when I wasn't looking.)

And before anyone brings up spells. You almost always need someone to nerf the enemies saves. It is painfully easy to get to 30 'base' saves with +1 and other variant of the Uni save gear. Almost every single ability in game is still subject to spellcraft, which is another easily 6+ saves vs spells. Spell resistance and protection from spells being SR that just blocks it from working and another +8 vs spells and spell like abilities.

AC and discipline boosting easy outclasses all but the most dedicated curse song debuffers to the point where you need true strike who's greatest counter is walking backwards slightly, or in the case of AA's a lesser restoration potion, and running right the heck away.

TL:DR It's not as easy as 'kill the caster.' In a solo, let alone group setting. It's almost HARDER to kill a caster, then their EDK if you ask me.

And if they want to run, they're getting away more likely then not.

[Durvayas]

Why are you fighting the dragon and not just smashing the caster into oblivion?

You know that things do get unsummoned when you kill the summoner, right?

If you ignore the dragon, you're going to get killed by it, is why.

If you ignore the caster to deal with the dragon, the caster is going to CC you..

Its a catch 22. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[DirtyDeity]

Why are you fighting the dragon and not just smashing the caster into oblivion?

You know that things do get unsummoned when you kill the summoner, right?

I have seen Dragon Knight curbstomp entire groups of warded epics because the caster was impossible to kill.

Let me list out a reason why you're not killing 90% of wizards clerics or sorcerers.

Extended Greater Sanctuary (Who's only counters are preemptive counter-spelling, presuming they didn't some how mess up their instant cast timestop, or spell failure, and I don't see many of you using taunt on a regular basis, let along getting it off before they cast timestop). You can cast that. Drop EDK in it, and the party's only option is to kill the dragon, Mords+WOF it, or run. And guess what, if you're solo, running is probably going to be your death, because if you're running from a EDK dragon, you're probably not geared enough or high enough level to resist any equal level or greater immobilization spell.

The other 10% is timestop and them running away.

Clerics have the added benefit of almost always being AC tanky as hell with G-restore and heal spells.

Let's talk about PM's then? Let's not talk about PM's. You're literally sneak immune, movement impairment immune (for the most part) and also have the AC of a decent fighter at worst. (Not to mention 90% of Wizards and sorcs have the constitution of a god damn dwarven defender.)

Druids? Literally elemental shape. Sure you could mords them to make the fight more fair, but it's not just EDK you're fighting at that point. The animal companions have bloody AA AB. It's actually insane. (Unless that was stealth nerfed when I wasn't looking.)

And before anyone brings up spells. You almost always need someone to nerf the enemies saves. It is painfully easy to get to 30 'base' saves with +1 and other variant of the Uni save gear. Almost every single ability in game is still subject to spellcraft, which is another easily 6+ saves vs spells. Spell resistance and protection from spells being SR that just blocks it from working and another +8 vs spells and spell like abilities.

AC and discipline boosting easy outclasses all but the most dedicated curse song debuffers to the point where you need true strike who's greatest counter is walking backwards slightly, or in the case of AA's a lesser restoration potion, and running right the heck away.

TL:DR It's not as easy as 'kill the caster.' In a solo, let alone group setting. It's almost HARDER to kill a caster, then their EDK if you ask me.

And if they want to run, they're getting away more likely then not.

I'll add to all this that even if you are able to even attack the mage, you're going through mestil's and premonition, and if you're stopping to for a couple rounds to breach off their wards, we're back at square one as you're getting smushed by a giant dragon while you're tippity tapping your wands.

Not to talk about that even CLICKING on the mage can be a challenge with a massive god damned dragon covering half your screen.

[-XXX-]

The more I am reading the arguments being presented in this thread, the more I am getting conviced that the vast majority of EDK kills are more than justified.

Probably the only valid argument that I am seeing here is that the EDK represents too powerful tool too early in the level progression of the caster classes that have the access to it.

Just out of curiosity I'd like to know the ratio of PCs getting killed by EDK and the amout of character dying to the ridiculous amounts of damage that melee builds can dish out at moment's notice.

[Wrips]

Other than the brutal criticals, I don't really agree that EDK is that overpowered.

[Shadowy Reality]

Extended Greater Sanctuary (Who's only counters are preemptive counter-spelling, presuming they didn't some how mess up their instant cast timestop, or spell failure, and I don't see many of you using taunt on a regular basis, let along getting it off before they cast timestop)

As a side note, you can also dispel Greater Sanctuary by targeting the ground with a Mords, it will remove it from the caster.

[Kreydis]

As a side note, you can also dispel Greater Sanctuary by targeting the ground with a Mords, it will remove it from the caster.

Mrhm, forgot about that one. Still, it's a tiny bit hard to pull that one off, but doable, yes.

The more I am reading the arguments being presented in this thread, the more I am getting conviced that the vast majority of EDK kills are more than justified.

I think the problem is preparation needed to deal with it. You need gold for scrolls to deal with it, if you can't kill it. You need gold for scrolls to properly go for and kill the mage, if it isn't already to strong to kill you as is.

Outside of the most prepared and knowledgeable person, your average player is losing to EDK or stalemated. Still, I'm of the opinions that summons are overtuned for the most part. Also that mages are way to hard to kill if they have any ounce of practice / aren't caught off guard with literally 0 wards by a rogue/sin/thing

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

While I do think paladins are a strong class (they always have been, really) I don't think its the holy sword tweaks that make it so. Its good for one thing, killing clerics. Which is fine, every class should have their weaknesses. You need to hit a wizard to dispel it, and if you are hitting a wizard with a pally they were dead anyways, dispels maybe just sped it up by half a round.

Paladins can dispel anything. Anything. Anything that literally didn't take abjuration, greater abjuration, arcane defense: abjuration, thus giving them 32 CL. Any class that has less than 30 CL will instantly lose all of their buffs, on spot. CL 30 characters will lose their buffs over time, but they /will/ lose them. This is not a small thing. You really can't argue that holy sword is 'only' good at killing clerics. It's good at killing /anything/, because it has such an easy time dispelling characters, mundane CL or not. It is, absolutely, the crux of what makes paladins overpowered. Overpowered. Not strong, not too powerful -- Overpowered.

Dispel on hit is huge. There is a reason this was removed from Spellswords. Extra CL was also removed from spellswords. Paladins, on the other hand, are given a special treatment. Why?

If you took the twenty best pvpers, told them to make any build they wanted and could assume that every good build would be covered, I can with almost absolute certainty say that palemaster would be the most powerful, followed by wizard, followed by rogue (although this might move up when the perfect bomber build is found), followed by the 20/7/3 f/wm/r heavy saves build, then maybe followed by a pally splash bard. And if they got that fifth spot on the list, it would be because of the wisdom boost allowing them more charisma/strength, not because of holy sword. I'm not saying that holy sword isn't good, it is...I'm just saying in a list of extremely good things on the server it doesn't even rank. Does that mean it won't win pvp from time to time? Nope, anything that's good has the chance to be an all star on any given occasion, but in a world filled with busted stuff I just don't see it as being as good as you are describing.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

I wouldn't say I am anywhere near the top 20 PvPers of Arelith, but I'm pretty well versed in build design. If the builds were only for PvP, I'd say the top five are Pure Druid, Bard with a Pally Dip, A rogue build, probably better with a Kama Rogue over a 24/6, Caster Healer Cleric, and Warrior Palemaster.

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

Holy sword's dispel is absolutely bonkers and I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat this. It's an absolute fact.

Speaking of 20 fun builds to play with, it would be something along the lines of:

1. Paladin

2. A white cj dog

3. My good friend Forest playing a vampire with a blindfold on

4. Barradoor on a pale tiefling (female)

5. My weaponmaster, because I'm the best PvPer in the world

That's my opinion. Did I prove anything? Not really. Holy sword's dispel remains entirely the same.

Also, palemaster most poweful? Most powerful what, banana eater? Monkey petter? I'm pretty confident in beating a palemaster with a weaponmaster. I'm also pretty confident in beating a palemaster with a weaponmaster. It's not a tier list, and it never should be. What is important is realizing what oversteps it's bounds and needs a change. Palemasters have been overstepping their bounds ever since NWN was a thing. Finally, all these later, they were given a slight nerf. Holy sword's dispel is next. It doesn't have to be a dispel. It can be literally anything else. Vulnerability on hit, anything, really.

I'm going to say it again, and hopefully for the last time. Dispel on hit is an absolutely overtuned mechanic, with only two counterplays:

1. Have high AC ( really hard to do in the case of paladin's where they get 55 AB )
2. Run away

I don't know, but between you and me this is a little bit absurd as the only means of dealing with it.

I'll actually also mention the third one: Ask the guy a question, and then hostile him and try to cheese him on your dual-wielding weaponmaster while he's typing out his answer. I'm just asking an alternative here, nothing more.

[CosmicOrderV]

Can I just say, with literally no sarcasm, threads like this are part of the reason I enjoy this server? Seriously. So many games just go for easy cash-grabs, and it's refreshing to see player input be the primary source of consideration for balance.

That said, Tarkus and Durvayas have made really good points. I was on the fence a little bit, because I'm very familiar with the EDK counters, but Durvayas' point about build versatility is what got me.

It feels somewhat like an improper balancing mechanic, to validate the combat power of a class through highly select feats. This doesn't promote build versatility. Now, don't get me wrong. I will side with 'theme' over 'balance' any day of the week. There ought to be certain things, that conceptually, are just very powerful abilities, and therefore translate into mechanically powerful abilities. But EDK feels like one of those feats that is the crux of a caster, regardless of what kind of caster, which sort of muddies each of their concepts together, and lessens overall build variety.

All this said, like I mentioned in the sorcerer thread, I still think changing too much about casters might be too soon. I don't know when HAKs are coming, but if casters start having brand new spells, that could drastically change this entire equation. In such a case, EDK could absolutely be nerfed as more utility is offered through a higher variety of spells.

As for paladin Holy Sword, yeah... that should probably go too, but my interactions with the class and characters of the class, is rather limited.

Edit: I totally forgot about the druids. It's a class I love, but wow. Yeah. It's overpowered. It's one of the classes I honestly feel like should have some major kick, but at the moment, it's too much kick. Future new druid spells? Yasssssssssss.