Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

[Adam Antium]

Absolutely! They are great group assets. Not a ton of people play such bards to my knowledge (although I stick mostly to Brogendenstein).

A -1 or -2 to Bard Song would be understandable but I'd want some sort of spellcasting boon in return. Maybe specifically, and only, in Greensteel armor/shield, bards would be able to cast without ASF.

I mean, the new spells Bards got in the most recent major update aren't even that useful to Bards. They're low CL, all have saves which means Bards would have to invest in spell focus, greater spell focus, and ESF, along with high Charisma, and we can't even cast spells in armor or have access to EMA unlike the other caster groups. If Bard Song is not as great anymore, bards need something to give them a different edge.

[Nitro]

That's sort of been the point of the discussion of the last couple of pages. To buff bard, you first have to do something with bard/curse song because it's such a nutty strong class feature.

[Tarkus the dog]

That's one of the most hilariously hyperbolic things I've heard in a long time, Peppermint.

Have fun against literally every build that isn't a cookie cutter WM or a dwarven defender, because you will get bent over by almost everything. Have EXTRA fun against any full caster class. Or a Druid. Or a paladin. Or one of a dozen other possible things that will obliterate you.


Tarkus: No.

Why not?

It's a powerful ability.

It should be cut in half, including the perform requirement.

[Adam Antium]

Then so should every powerful ability.

Literally every class gets a powerful ability (or a handful) and that's the point. You just want bards to be mediocre, if you're advocating for "cutting bard song in half" because it's their only powerful ability. Name one reason why anybody would go 20 bard for a +1 AB/+2 AC/+1 saves buff, instead of just dipping 3 bard for umd/tumble in a build that doesn't actually revolve around a sucky class.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

I swear, if bards get nerfed just as I finally arrive at lasting inspiration...

That said; can see the argument for. Would definitely benefit from some other adjustments to incentive taking more bard levels, if song got gutted. As well as some quality of life. The short duration on the song pre-epic is a wee bit painful. Particularly as it's all you can really contribute. It'd be a bit of a kick, mind, given that part of why I picked it was because the class had gone more or less untouched by Arelith, and I figured it was staying steady.

That said, I'm playing a CHA bard. I have no-one to blame but myself.

[Adam Antium]

It *shouldn't* be nerfed. Bard song requires at least 16 levels of investment into a class that otherwise is pretty shit, and only useful in any other builds because it has umd/tumble (so does rogue, but rogues also have evasion while bard has discipline). 16 levels. 20 if you want it to have a usable duration as you have just noted.

If 20 levels in a base class doesn't give me something awesome, whether it's epic spellcasting (although that's 21 levels) or huge damage output and AB or a combination of abilities and spells (paladins, druids) or Bane Of Enemies along with HiPS (Rangers) or Bard Song then that's f***ed.

If you wanna literally cut bard song in half then Bards get full BAB progression and flat, universal ASF reduction both. And maybe a buff to enchantment spell DC's. Anything less is just an insult and a desire to make a class literally worthless except as a 3-level dip.

[Tarkus the dog]

Then so should every powerful ability.

Literally every class gets a powerful ability (or a handful) and that's the point. You just want bards to be mediocre, if you're advocating for "cutting bard song in half" because it's their only powerful ability. Name one reason why anybody would go 20 bard for a +1 AB/+2 AC/+1 saves buff, instead of just dipping 3 bard for umd/tumble in a build that doesn't actually revolve around a sucky class.

If you have 4 party members with you, in total you accumulate ( with my suggestion) 10 ac, 6 damage, 4 ab, 56 temp hp, 16 skill points ( every skill ), 4 reflex, 4 fortitude, and 6 will save ( not including yourself ). You also do that to your enemy, but in negative numbers. Name me another class that can have that much stat value with one or two spells/abilities alone.

Also I'm also not sure why are you bringing up 20 bards. 20 bards are mediocre. No one should play them over 27 bards to begin with ( if their goal is to make the best out of the bard song, if not then I'm fine with that. but then again the whole point of bard -is- the bard song ). 27 bards are the main issue. Let's look into a Tarkus nerfed 27 bard for a minute here:

2 party members.

In total, they get: 6 ac, 2 ab, 3 damage, 42 temp hp, 16 skill points, 3 will save, 2 fortitude, 2 reflex. I actually just copy-pasted this from the wiki, because (X/2)*2 = X*1. When you look at the bard from this angle it's actually pretty horrific what the class does, and this is just one buffed guy ( as of writing this post ). Let's pretend there's 10 guys, trying to fight other 10 guys, as is often the case with factions and mass PvP shenanigans. This time no Tarkus nerfs, again, 27 bard:

60 ac (it's dodge ac, at least), 20 ab, 30 damage, 420 temp hp, 160 skill points ( per skill, 7 of which are actually useful in combat so 1120 in tota), 30 will save, 20 fortitude and 20 reflex.

You may have noticed that for the most part I just added a 0 at the very end, but now we're looking at actual nightmare fuel. Bring 10 people together and the bard song can actually create a whole new PC stat-wise. I also wasn't counting curse song, which adds even more numbers. Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't another class in the game that can replicate that, and you may argue that "but that's bard's shtick, massive numbers" and you would be for the most part correct. And that is exactly the issue, the sheer amount of stats they can give you across the board.

This is why Peppermint is saying that all you have to do is hit recommend and bard song and you're good to go. They are not even taking into consideration that a bard can pretty much keep your whole team alive with UMD while you're doing battle since the class already did it's part by using curse+bard song. A lot of support classes on Arelith work this way, even classes like healer cleric who can actively heal the party. I keep telling my friend with rogue level in his cleric to just give me magic vestment, regeneration, SR and I'm pretty much ready for anything. If they can cast a spell or too during the engagement even better, but they did the largest part of their job. It might be my poor perception of how support should work but in my opinion it should be a little bit more engaging than pressing a button or two.

It's just a suggestion, though, someone who actually does maths can probably come with a more stable solution -- but at any rate it is very difficult to look at these numbers and consider them fair in comparison to the rest of the game. That said in sincerity I doubt anything will ever be done to bards however, or any time soon at the very least, so I don't want to stir bad feelings for any of you.

[Adam Antium]

Then so should every powerful ability.

Literally every class gets a powerful ability (or a handful) and that's the point. You just want bards to be mediocre, if you're advocating for "cutting bard song in half" because it's their only powerful ability. Name one reason why anybody would go 20 bard for a +1 AB/+2 AC/+1 saves buff, instead of just dipping 3 bard for umd/tumble in a build that doesn't actually revolve around a sucky class.

If you have 4 party members with you, in total you accumulate ( with my suggestion) 10 ac, 6 damage, 4 ab, 56 temp hp, 16 skill points ( every skill ), 4 reflex, 4 fortitude, and 6 will save ( not including yourself ). You also do that to your enemy, but in negative numbers. Name me another class that can have that much stat value with one or two spells/abilities alone.

Also I'm also not sure why are you bringing up 20 bards. 20 bards are mediocre. No one should play them over 27 bards to begin with ( if their goal is to make the best out of the bard song, if not then I'm fine with that. but then again the whole point of bard -is- the bard song ). 27 bards are the main issue. Let's look into a Tarkus nerfed 27 bard for a minute here:

2 party members.

In total, they get: 6 ac, 2 ab, 3 damage, 42 temp hp, 16 skill points, 3 will save, 2 fortitude, 2 reflex. I actually just copy-pasted this from the wiki, because (X/2)*2 = X*1. When you look at the bard from this angle it's actually pretty horrific what the class does, and this is just one guy. Let's pretend there's 10 guys, trying to fight other 10 guys, as is often the case with factions and mass PvP shenanigans. This time no Tarkus nerfs, again, 27 bard:

60 ac (it's dodge ac, at least), 20 ab, 30 damage, 420 temp hp, 160 skill points ( per skill, 7 of which are actually useful in combat so 1120 in tota), 30 will save, 20 fortitude and 20 reflex.

You may have noticed that for the most part I just added a 0 at the very end, but now we're looking at actual nightmare fuel. Bring 10 people together and the bard song can actually create a whole new PC stat-wise. I also wasn't counting curse song, which adds even more numbers. Correct me if I'm wrong but there isn't another class in the game that can replicate that, and you may argue that "but that's bard's shtick, massive numbers" and you would be for the most part correct. And that is exactly the issue, the sheer amount of stats they can give you across the board.

This is why Peppermint is saying that all you have to do is hit recommend and bard song and you're good to go. They are not even taking into consideration that a bard can pretty much keep your whole team alive with UMD while you're doing battle since the class already done it's part by curse+bard songing. A lot of support classes on Arelith work this way, even classes like healer cleric who can actively heal the party. I keep telling my friend with rogue level in his cleric to just give me magic vestment, regeneration, SR and I'm pretty much ready for anything. If they can cast a spell or too during the engagement even better, but they did the largest part of their job. It might be my poor perception of how support should work but in my opinion it should be a little bit more engaging than pressing a button or two.

It's just a suggestion, though, someone who actually does maths can probably come with a more stable solution -- but at any rate it is very difficult to look at these numbers and consider them fair in comparison to the rest of the game. That said in sincerity I doubt anything will ever be done to bards however, or any time soon at the very least, so I don't want to stir bad feelings for any of you.

I literally have no idea where these numbers are coming from. Bard song at level 20 is not 10 AC, 4 AB, etc. etc., you get 5 AC, 2 AB, 3 will, 2 fort/reflex, 28 temp hp, and 3 damage.

Curse song is the opposite, but that doesn't mean you double the numbers, lol. You would need to nerf your enemy by 5 AB in order for you to have the equivalent of +10 AC.


Yes, a bard can turn a party into a monstrosity.

If you're comparing parties, you don't get to assume one party has a bard and one doesn't, that's not a fair comparison. That's like saying "well a party of 4 cookie cutter WM's can't beat a party of 2 paladins and 2 wild mages, so the other party needs a nerf."


Yes. A well built bard will shit on something basic like a cookie cutter WM.

So do lots of builds and basic classes.

Further, you don't get to just say "20-level bards are irrelevant when discussing bard song," that's complete nonsense. You look at the way the class is used, you don't just say "well ignore everybody that isn't built specifically to maximize this one ability at the detriment of being anything less than a turtle."


"60 ac (it's dodge ac, at least), 20 ab, 30 damage, 420 temp hp, 160 skill points ( per skill, 7 of which are actually useful in combat so 1120 in tota), 30 will save, 20 fortitude and 20 reflex."

Are you just listing random numbers? This is one of the most disingenuous ways of examining how buffs work that I've ever heard of.


Let's just say you're in a party of 20 people and you cast mass haste. Holy ballsacks, you get 80 AC and 20 attacks per round!!! Nerf mass haste pls!

[Tarkus the dog]

lol

[Peppermint]

Tarkus. You've said so much wrong here I don't even know where to begin.

You are banned from mechanics discussions here on out.

Bad dog.

[Ork]

Haste is calculated into traditional mechanic numbers since everyone has access to haste. Not everyone has access to bard song. I wouldn't really argue with Tarkus - his math is really sound & validated through multiple conversations now.

The swing of ab, ac, saves, and specifically skills will turn the tide. Can't (or shouldn't) argue with that.

[Peppermint]

That math is not sound. It's far from sound. It fails even on basic algebraic levels, let alone a rudimentary understanding of Neverwinter Nights.

Let's do a simple math exercise here.

We have four characters attacking a single target. That target has 20 AC. Each attacker has 10 AB and deals 2d6 damage per hit (i.e. an average of 7 damage per hit). For simplification's sake, we'll ignore criticals.

Using these parameters, we would expect each attacker to hit 55% of the time. His average damage per round is 7 * 0.55 = 3.85. Our damage for all four attackers for a single round is therefore 15.4.

With me so far? Great.

Now let's add a 5 AC bard song to the mix. Our attackers now hit 30% of the time. Their average damage per round is 7 * 0.3 = 2.1. Our average for all four attackers in a single round is now 8.4. In this example, we're now dealing about 55% of the damage we dealt before Bard Song was applied.

Now let's give the bard three more party members. Each of them has the same AC as the bard. We'll run under the assumption that AC modifiers are additive; the bard has four party members, so the bard's party gains a bonus of 20 AC.

(* We can't add our attackers AB modifiers together. We've already included that in our math.)

In this scenario, our attackers would now hit 5% of the time. The average damage per attacker per round drops to 0.35. The average total damage per round drops to 1.4. In this scenario, our attackers are now dealing about 9% of the damage they'd dealt before bard song was applied, and 17% of the damage they'd dealt before three more party members showed up.

... Wait, what?

Of course it should be obvious by now that this scenario is patently absurd. The "logical" steps we took to reach this level of math never made any sense. A level 20 Bard Song gives 5 AC, flat. 2 AB, flat. 2 damage, flat. Bard Song is not additive or multiplicative, and no new party member is "created".

[Adam Antium]

Peppermint is 100% correct. Tarkus' numbers are absolute nonsense.

To quote a friend who I laughed about this thread with IRL earlier today, just because I eat 20 chicken mcnuggets in McDonald's doesn't mean anybody else in the building is less hungry.

Giving a party +5 AC doesn't mean you gain 50 AC for a party of 10 members, it means ten different people gained 5 AC, which is going to have different effects for everybody and depending on what they're facing. If you want to compare a bard in a party, you compare them to another party. At that point, party composition can't just be hypothetical'd away. Maybe the opposing party has a bard and also a ton of other powerbuilds and crushes. Maybe one party is a bard and a fighter, and the opposing party is five wild mages.


You compare 1v1 because that's the only real comparison you can do. You can't just start proposing "well one party has XYZ and the other has ABC, clearly XYZ wins here." That's so ridiculous that I expect it out of one of the Presidential debates.

[Ork]

Yeah, I legit took that all as hyperbole based on the amount of times high bard song comes up and people saying it's "not that strong".

I wouldn't laugh at a L27 bard.

[NauVaseline]

That's so ridiculous that I expect it out of one of the Presidential debates.

No bard! No bard! YOU'RE THE BAARDDD!!

[RedGiant]

All this "overpowered" awesomeness can be countered with silence, and the offensive power of curse song muted with the nearly ubiquitous thunderstones.

For a long time, one of my old kobold PCs used to sell "ward vs. goblin", which was just a weight reduced thunderstone, aimed at a particularly notorious PC goblin bard, who habitually inflicted his "songs" on the public. While it was a humor item, and best seller, it also worked.

This is another example where numbers alarmism doesn't tell the full story. Counters and strategy should always be considered before we push the nerf button.

[Zavandar]

Was that before or after SR helmets

[Peppermint]

Is your plan seriously to drop your fortitude so low that you can fail the DC 15 deafness and gain immunity for five rounds? How did you survive with no fortitude or constitution score during this time?

You never did this. You're making stuff up.

[RedGiant]

Admittedly it's been since old UD days and I haven't tried it lately because I haven't had a bard nemesis, even a humorous one, in 10 irl years.

I /thought/ thunderstone would self-deafen as harmless, much like silence is harmless on self. At work, so can't test current conditions. If anyone can confirm or deny, would be good to know.

But, even if it's not, 10 years ago was before many changes to the module and low, even single digit saves were common on characters. I was playing a wizard whose secondary stat was dex. And the fun here was passing these out and encouraging people to toss them like bangsnaps whenever the goblin started singing.

So even if self-deafening is not currently a viable tactic via Thunderstone, you could actually just say that instead of calling people liars.

[Peppermint]

Well, RedGiant, I have to admit that I came into this argument uninformed. I double checked the relevant block of code.

Code: Select all

  while (GetIsObjectValid(oTarget))
    {
        if(!GetIsReactionTypeFriendly(oTarget))
        {
             SignalEvent(oTarget, EventSpellCastAt(OBJECT_SELF, GetSpellId(), TRUE));
            //Get the distance between the explosion and the target to calculate delay
            fDelay = GetDistanceBetweenLocations(lTarget, GetLocation(oTarget))/20;
            {

                // * caster can't be affected by the spell
                if ((oTarget != oCaster))
                if(!MySavingThrow(SAVING_THROW_FORT, oTarget, 15))
                {

                    // Apply effects to the currently selected target.
                    DelayCommand(fDelay, ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eDeaf, oTarget, RoundsToSeconds(nDuration)));
                    //This visual effect is applied to the target object not the location as above.  This visual effect
                    //represents the flame that erupts on the target not on the ground.
                    DelayCommand(fDelay, ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eVis, oTarget));
                }
             }
        }
       //Select the next target within the spell shape.
       oTarget = GetNextObjectInShape(SHAPE_SPHERE, nSize, lTarget, TRUE, OBJECT_TYPE_CREATURE);
    }

In case it's not obvious, let's zoom in on the relevant bit of code here:

Code: Select all

                // * caster can't be affected by the spell
                if ((oTarget != oCaster))

It doesn't even affect the caster.

This is the default code from the vanilla game. I've compared it with the most recent Arelith code that I have (i.e. maybe about a year old), and since then nothing has changed.

You're making stuff up. Stop.

[RedGiant]

I did notice you didn't say anything about my silence comments and bard song.

Since you are being helpful, and we've clearly buried the hatchet, I am still interested in not immediately apparent ways to self-deafen.

What about the code to great thunder clap, WM super thunder clap, deafening clang, etc.?

And, even if none of these are particularly viable as a current tactic, if bard + curse = numbers that are so egregious, then perhaps this would at least yield a viable suggestion/alternative to a straight nerf. I.e., make one or more of these spells harmlessly self deafen, which would provide a taxable defense against half of the threat.

[Peppermint]

The silence spell works. It's of situational usefulness on a consumable. Short duration and most bards will trade favorably into you if you keep reapplying it.

Why are you such an ardent defender of the strongest class in the game? Most servers nerf bards, and for good reason.

[Shadowy Reality]

Can't one just use a silence wand/scroll/potion on themselves?

I vaguely remember there being no check there. Not that this is very good, mind you, lasting only 3 rounds, but it is something.

edit: confirmed by the post above

[Poolbrain]

If you find the negative effects of curse song annoying one could just simply drink a Lesser Restoration potion and then continue about their day, or massacre the horrible musician responsible for it.

[Nitro]

If you find the negative effects of curse song annoying one could just simply drink a Lesser Restoration potion and then continue about their day, or massacre the horrible musician responsible for it.

It takes about the same time to queue up another curse song when you see someone drinking a potion, and since any 20+ bard has 20+ casts of curse song they can keep trading into resto potions all day.