Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

[Peppermint]

While doing 28 damage (or 23 adjusting for essences) each time. And though that's not much per song, you're going to start the fight over 400 hit points on the backfoot if you commit to trading out every curse.

I'm no mathematician, but that doesn't sound particularly ideal to me.

It might sound good on paper, sure. Restoration as an answer to curse song is even something I hear a lot--but never from experienced players.

[Adam Antium]

Maybe just require bards be chaotic again so there's no more bardadin drama

Also, Peppermint, "other servers nerf bards" is not a valid argument either. Firstly, we don't know what servers you're talking about, since you never say, but secondly those servers aren't Arelith and don't have the same balance or structure that Arelith does, it's not a direct comparison.

Bardadin is very stronk. 27 Bard is far less stronk. 30 Bard, or bards built purely for party buffing including 20/10 bard/pdk, are even less stronk, and only useful when they are both in a party, and facing opponents that do not have their own bard buffbot to counteract their sole ability. There are also ways to deal with the issue, such as silence potions, killing the bard first (also a good way to handle mages, and nobody has an issue with mages), etc. - it isn't an instantaneous win. It's a good ability and can swing a battle. So can mass haste, or avascular mass, or mass heal, or a druid (even with the nerfs). None of these are instant wins. They're all potent, however.

Restoration definitely isn't ideal, though you can go bumrush the bard and either -pray or just cope with the -2 AB while you beat his face in - there are builds capable of burrying a turtle-bard (again, every spellcaster fits this bill, for one).

What changes - full list of changes including nerfs and buffs if you want to give them anything to compensate the nerfs - do you want to see for Bards, Peppermint?

[Poolbrain]

If you find the negative effects of curse song annoying one could just simply drink a Lesser Restoration potion and then continue about their day, or massacre the horrible musician responsible for it.

It takes about the same time to queue up another curse song when you see someone drinking a potion, and since any 20+ bard has 20+ casts of curse song they can keep trading into resto potions all day.

Depends on the situation. If you got plenty of back up, sure: You could just run around casting cure song and taunting enemy spell casters for arcane failure etc. If enemy got an archer you probably gonna get sniped. If you don't have enough support you probably will be busy not getting hacked to death to keep your curse up.

If it's a one on one melee combat, yeah there might be a silly trade like that. Or until the bard's opponent times a TS-potion where the bard is likely to sing again, that can hurt a lot.

[Peppermint]

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it:

Shave 1-2 points of AC off of song, and reduce skill point growth to about 1/2 or 2/3 of the current progression past 16, and bards will be in a much better spot.

I'm not requesting a nuke here. But the idea that bards are "fine" is kind of nuts.

[Adam Antium]

I still don't think that's necessary, but OK.

What, exactly, are the standards/methodologies used to determine Bard needs this debuff, out of curiosity? Everybody seems to come at their conclusions through different comparisons/reasoning.

[NauVaseline]

Does curse song penetrate NEP? Can't you just NEP potion then Lesser Restore?

[Peppermint]

Personal anecdote and experience, which I'll grant isn't much to go off in a debate format. I could point at builds that I consider strong and compare them, but I don't feel like doing that much math right now.

I know that seems kind of cheap in a mechanics discussion. "This build is strong and needs nerfs!" "Yeah? Prove it." "Um... no. That's work. Just trust me, ok?"

But I digress. In the end, we're just railing on a message board.

As for NEP, that doesn't block Curse Song. Curse Song neither level drains nor reduces ability scores.

[Poolbrain]

I think high level bard combination easily is one of the most useful and powerful classes along with various wizard/sorc builds and paladins. It's however not class that could ever rip apart groups of people alone.

It feels like this balance talk is mostly circulating around PvP and a team with a bard will most certainly have a huge benefit but so will the other team if they have a wizard and the bard's group does not.

There will always be top tier builds around. Too keep nailing those builds that end up at the top down will just result in more and more frustration.

When it comes to high level bards I've seen them a lot in Arena servers, usually a lvl 30 bard in each party. Very rarely in PvP oriented RP servers (Anphillia for example with auto hostiled factions) and maybe a couple of times across years of playing on servers like Arelith and Amia.

I'd suggest if these strong builds become an issue that's making people have less fun, add items against them. Add a helmet that gives its wearer silence or make Neg protection work against curse song for example. This is a better way to move around a problem than using the eraser and redrawing until there's nothing left of the paper.

At the moment I feel Bards are usually just a happy surprise to have in your party when you're running around clicking monsters in a dungeon.

[Adam Antium]

I love PoolBrain's above post. Though, I would be sad if NEP protected entirely against curse song, that itself would be a massive, massive debuff to bards. But I think I agree with his entire post.

Peppermint, I have sympathy for the "no, that's work," I don't blame you. We all have jobs and lives and shit outside of these forums. You've also been very reasonable and accurate so far with everything I've seen you post. I think we just disagree about how powerful bards really are in the current meta. Maybe we've had different experiences or maybe we're comparing them to different things mentally.


Anywho, I feel like my part in this thread is pretty much done. Most of what I wanted to say and debunk is said or debunked.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I always wanted bard song to be separated into toned down version of its current iteration (a one time AoE shout), and a more sustained song (like a mad singing dervish). Where the latter has the more uber abilities that can be focused and expanded upon, but with a mechanical trade off. And the former is the current Bard Song toned down a lot.

The big problem with 3.0 NWN Bards is the total lack of feat trees that are unique to their primary ability.

(I always wonder why we never get into the conversation of new feat trees. They can be a bane, but also a great way to open up varied class systems without relying on class levels as a way of gatekeeping and balancing. But I suppose moving towards a feat-free-for-all system is way more like Pathfinder, and less like DnD)

[Ork]

I don't think a bardadin could hold a candle to most high CL classes these days. They're one mords away from irrelevancy. 27 & 30 are the way to go for bard.

[Peppermint]

I'm not convinced I agree with that.

Bard Song, Divine Shield, and Divine Might comprise most of your important buffs. None are dispellable.

Alternatively, you can just not cast and rely on wands instead.

I'm not saying Bard 26/Paladin 4 is a bad variant. But I wouldn't rule the traditional Bardadin out.

[Poolbrain]

I'm not convinced I agree with that.

Bard Song, Divine Shield, and Divine Might comprise most of your important buffs. None are dispellable.

Alternatively, you can just not cast and rely on wands instead.

I'm not saying Bard 26/Paladin 4 is a bad variant. But I wouldn't rule the traditional Bardadin out.

In an a fully buffed arena fight, you (The bard) would be picked off by buffed up high ab/damage hitters likes wms, barbarians and paladins. You simply dont do as much damage and don't have as high hp from your d6/lvl. Arcane archers would pick you off and a few rounds of igms would also see you dead. Corner sneaks could also gut you.

In a a sudden "RP" fight where someone confronts you (The bard) because you have an ugly hair cut or Cyric on your T-shirt: you would probably get killed by most builds less buff reliant on you. Barbarians and wms unless you really manage to outplay them and get some distance to buff up.

In a scenario where you're completely buffed up and you're opponent is let's say a WM or Barb. Yeah, you will most probably win. Because you're completely buffed up. You're sort of supposed to win. Just like any paladin, cleric or other buff reliant meleer.

Buff classes sounds super great on the paper until Foldrijk the Barbarian catches you with your pants down because you were accidentally picnicking on his family's burial mound, he'll have you in two before you can say "haste".

So your game plan to beat this annoying bard that's stealing all your lunch money is to either beat him up faster than he can buff or invite a few good friends to school who likes handing out knuckle sandwiches.

[Peppermint]

Oh, darling. Let's do some math.

Code: Select all

Bard(20), Fighter(6), Blackguard(4), Orog

STR: 21 (28)
DEX: 6
CON: 14
WIS: 6
INT: 13
CHA: 16

Ba	01: Bard(1): Curse Song
Ba	02: Bard(2)
Ba	03: Bard(3): Expertise
F	04: Fighter(1): STR+1, Improved Expertise, (STR=22)
F	05: Fighter(2): Weapon Proficiency Exotic
F	06: Fighter(3): Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
F	07: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
Ba	08: Bard(4): STR+1, (STR=23)
Ba	09: Bard(5): Blind Fight
BG	10: Blackguard(1)
BG	11: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
BG	12: Blackguard(3): STR+1, Divine Shield, (STR=24)
Ba	13: Bard(6)
Ba	14: Bard(7)
Ba	15: Bard(8): Divine Might
Ba	16: Bard(9): STR+1, (STR=25)
Ba	17: Bard(10)
Ba	18: Bard(11): Improved Critical: Bastard Sword
Ba	19: Bard(12)
BG	20: Blackguard(4): STR+1, (STR=26)
F	21: Fighter(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
F	22: Fighter(6): Epic Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
Ba	23: Bard(13)
Ba	24: Bard(14): STR+1, Epic Prowess, (STR=27)
Ba	25: Bard(15)
Ba	26: Bard(16)
Ba	27: Bard(17): Armor Skin
Ba	28: Bard(18): STR+1, (STR=28)
Ba	29: Bard(19)
Ba	30: Bard(20): Lasting Inspiration

Skills
Discipline (33), Heal (15), Perform (33), Spellcraft (33), Tumble (30), Use Magic Device* (1)

(* Feel free to shift points from elsewhere to here. Though our charisma bonus gives us enough UMD to use all scrolls. And our charisma plus song is enough to use all scrolls and wands.)

Equipment:

Essenced Orog Bastard Sword
Orog Battle Armor
Adamantine Tower Shield
Headband of Protection
Boots (+1 AC/+1 Stat/+1 Stat)

Note: We have seven slots that can be runed. Using wands and just six of those runes, we can attain the following statistic bonuses:

Strength: +12
Constitution: +12
Dexterity: +6
Charisma: +12

(Note: We're generously assuming no Belt of Champions.)

Now, let's stat this out:

Attack Bonus:

22 (Base Attack Bonus)
+ 15 (Strength Modifier)
+ 1 (Weapon Focus)
+ 2 (Epic Weapon Focus)
+ 1 (Epic Prowess)
+ 4 (Enhancement Bonus)
+ 2 (Bard Song)
= 47

Average Damage: 
1d10 ~= 5.5(Base)
+ 15 (Strength Modifier)
+ 6 (Epic Weapon Specialization)
+ 4 (Enhancement)
+ 2 (Bludgeoning)
+ 4 (Permanent Essence)
+ 1d6 ~= 3.5 (Temp Essence)
+ 3 (Bard Song)
+ 9 (Divine Might)
= 52

Average Critical Damage: 104

Critical Hit Range: 15-20/x2

Armor Class:

10 (Base)
+ 1 (Orog Natural Armor)
+ 1 (Dexterity Modifier)
+ 6 (Tumble)
+ 2 (Armor Skin)
+1 (FIghter Bonus_
+ 11 (Orog Battle Armor)
+ 6 (Adamantine Tower Shield)
+ 2 (Headband of Protection)
+ 1 (Boots)
+ 4 (Barkskin [Wand])
+ 9 (Divine Shield)
+ 5 (Bard Song)
+ 4 (Haste)
+ 1 (Mage Armor)
= 64

Hit Points: 460

Saving Throws:

(Assuming buffed stats and bard song. No universal saves gear.)

Fortitude: 36
Will: 25
Reflex: 27

Saving Throws vs. Spells:

(Assuming a modest 50 spellcraft.)

Fortitude: 46
Will: 35
Reflex: 37

Summary:

AB: 47 (- Improved Expertise = 37)
AC: 64 (+ Improved Expertise = 74)
Hit Points: 460
Average Damage: 52
Average Critical Damage: 104
Critical Hit Range: 15-20/x2
Saving Throws: F (36) W (25) R (27)
Saving Throws vs. Spells: F (46) W (35) R (37)

You're right in that you've a bit of wind up time to reach these numbers: Haste, Bard Song, Divine Shield, Divine Might.

The good news (and what you're neglecting) is that you can turtle pretty easily with Bard Song, Divine Shield, and Improved Expertise against most builds. Worst case scenario? Buy time with a Timestop.

Not running zoo buffs all the time? Fine. You've no actual reason to do that, but our numbers take a slight dip. We're still better off than most melees. (Note that I haven't even included Curse Song, so the numbers I've listed above are quite modest to begin with.)

I've played a bard. I've PvP'd on one plenty, and that one wasn't even particularly optimal. I'm not talking out of my rear. If you're struggling with your bard, even when fighting spontaneously, you're doing something very, very, very, very wrong. Shame on you.

[NauVaseline]

Oh, darling.

Shame on you.

Condescending comments like these detract from the meat of an otherwise stellar breakdown. I understand the underlying frustration behind having to repeat yourself when you know you're right, but you can do better man.

[Poolbrain]

Oh, darling. Let's do some math.

Code: Select all

Bard(20), Fighter(6), Blackguard(4), Orog

STR: 21 (28)
DEX: 6
CON: 14
WIS: 6
INT: 13
CHA: 16

Ba	01: Bard(1): Curse Song
Ba	02: Bard(2)
Ba	03: Bard(3): Expertise
F	04: Fighter(1): STR+1, Improved Expertise, (STR=22)
F	05: Fighter(2): Weapon Proficiency Exotic
F	06: Fighter(3): Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
F	07: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
Ba	08: Bard(4): STR+1, (STR=23)
Ba	09: Bard(5): Blind Fight
BG	10: Blackguard(1)
BG	11: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
BG	12: Blackguard(3): STR+1, Divine Shield, (STR=24)
Ba	13: Bard(6)
Ba	14: Bard(7)
Ba	15: Bard(8): Divine Might
Ba	16: Bard(9): STR+1, (STR=25)
Ba	17: Bard(10)
Ba	18: Bard(11): Improved Critical: Bastard Sword
Ba	19: Bard(12)
BG	20: Blackguard(4): STR+1, (STR=26)
F	21: Fighter(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
F	22: Fighter(6): Epic Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
Ba	23: Bard(13)
Ba	24: Bard(14): STR+1, Epic Prowess, (STR=27)
Ba	25: Bard(15)
Ba	26: Bard(16)
Ba	27: Bard(17): Armor Skin
Ba	28: Bard(18): STR+1, (STR=28)
Ba	29: Bard(19)
Ba	30: Bard(20): Lasting Inspiration

Skills
Discipline (33), Heal (15), Perform (33), Spellcraft (33), Tumble (30), Use Magic Device* (1)

(* Feel free to shift points from elsewhere to here. Though our charisma bonus gives us enough UMD to use all scrolls. And our charisma plus song is enough to use all scrolls and wands.)

Equipment:

Essenced Orog Bastard Sword
Orog Battle Armor
Adamantine Tower Shield
Headband of Protection
Boots (+1 AC/+1 Stat/+1 Stat)

Note: We have seven slots that can be runed. Using wands and just six of those runes, we can attain the following statistic bonuses:

Strength: +12
Constitution: +12
Dexterity: +6
Charisma: +12

(Note: We're generously assuming no Belt of Champions.)

Now, let's stat this out:

Attack Bonus:

22 (Base Attack Bonus)
+ 15 (Strength Modifier)
+ 1 (Weapon Focus)
+ 2 (Epic Weapon Focus)
+ 1 (Epic Prowess)
+ 4 (Enhancement Bonus)
+ 2 (Bard Song)
= 47

Average Damage: 
1d10 ~= 5.5(Base)
+ 15 (Strength Modifier)
+ 6 (Epic Weapon Specialization)
+ 4 (Enhancement)
+ 2 (Bludgeoning)
+ 4 (Permanent Essence)
+ 1d6 ~= 3.5 (Temp Essence)
+ 3 (Bard Song)
+ 9 (Divine Might)
= 52

Average Critical Damage: 104

Critical Hit Range: 15-20/x2

Armor Class:

10 (Base)
+ 1 (Orog Natural Armor)
+ 1 (Dexterity Modifier)
+ 6 (Tumble)
+ 2 (Armor Skin)
+ 6 (Orog Battle Armor)
+ 6 (Adamantine Tower Shield)
+ 2 (Headband of Protection)
+ 1 (Boots)
+ 4 (Barkskin [Wand])
+ 9 (Divine Shield)
+ 5 (Bard Song)
+ 4 (Haste)
+ 1 (Mage Armor)
= 58

Hit Points: 460

Saving Throws:

(Assuming buffed stats and bard song. No universal saves gear.)

Fortitude: 36
Will: 25
Reflex: 27

Saving Throws vs. Spells:

(Assuming a modest 50 spellcraft.)

Fortitude: 46
Will: 35
Reflex: 37

Summary:

AB: 47 (- Improved Expertise = 37)
AC: 58 (+ Improved Expertise = 68)
Hit Points: 460
Average Damage: 52
Average Critical Damage: 104
Critical Hit Range: 15-20/x2
Saving Throws: F (36) W (25) R (27)
Saving Throws vs. Spells: F (46) W (35) R (37)

You're right in that you've a bit of wind up time to reach these numbers: Haste, Bard Song, Divine Shield, Divine Might.

The good news (and what you're neglecting) is that you can turtle pretty easily with Bard Song, Divine Shield, and Improved Expertise against most builds. Worst case scenario? Buy time with a Timestop.

Not running zoo buffs all the time? Fine. You've no actual reason to do that, but our numbers take a slight dip. We're still better off than most melees. (Note that I haven't even included Curse Song, so the numbers I've listed above are quite modest to begin with.)

I've played a bard. I've PvP'd on one plenty, and that one wasn't even particularly optimal. I'm not talking out of my rear. If you're struggling with your bard, even when fighting spontaneously, you're doing something very, very, very, very wrong. Shame on you.

Hi!

To be honest I think that sounds pretty alright for a "Top Tier" build. You will wind up with some similar numbers on a fully buffed battle cleric or paladin (Paladin would have a lot higher ab while lower AC).

To still comment on the build attached:


While in my opinion not "game-breakingly" strong that build is counting on numbers requiring 42(!) ability score from equipment and buffs (spread out over str, con, dex, and char). While the build doesn't have metamagic to max the animal spells. There's a lot of crazy stuff going on there to twist out those numbers from not getting improved knockdown to (probably) relying on high rolls from animal wands to walk about like that (on four different stats). I guess BG bull strength will help a bit, but it has a really short duration.

Neither does it have Still Spell to use the whole bard's arsenal like long duration haste, whispering wounds and amplify etc after combat has started.

Lack of listen and concentration also makes it susceptible to taunt and shadow dancers/corner sneakers who might just wait out your divine shield in the shadows (Because it really doesn't last that long, especially if you get bored trying to get that 5 roll on Eagle's Splendor). Most PvP mages will give it (or any other build for that matter...) a hard time through none-saveable nukes with G-ruin, hellball, igms and Power word kill. If the mage got SD levels or hide/ms even more so.

Through all of that sacrifice that build still don't end up with numbers that can't be beaten, but yeah. That Orog laboratory experiment will be very scary. But I don't think you will ever see every other player building it because scavenging up 42 ability score is not fun or very exciting. (having 3 ability score on every item available, including shield and sword, will get you (12x 3=) 36 ability score).

I'm pretty sure if you set your mind to it you will find yourself many ways to beat these powerful bard builds. But like I said before, this is an RP server, the best counter to anything is always "bring some strong friends", set up an ambush.

SIDE NOTE! (Not saying this is what to balance classes around):

Few builds survive, no matter how strong, some properly planned deception and trap laying. I think strong builds are a nice incentive to this type of RP: "Crap man, he beat the hell out of us! How we gonna get him!?.. Alright if we can kidnap his mage friend to summon him into this ware house.. If he tries to fight us again we got the place littered with traps! And Timmy will be up on that balcony with his bow, he won't be able to reach you!"

Normal esports are balanced after teams of equal numbers and conditions but on NWN RP servers you can tweek this in an unlimited amount of ways.

RP servers needs their combat legends and "Miyamoto Musashi"s, aslong as there's not too many of them and they start ruining the fun for people.

[Peppermint]

(Note: in the above post, I included the Orog Battle Armor at +6 AC. That should in fact be +11 AC, meaning an actual bard earns five more AC in practice! I also overlooked the Fighter bonus for an additional +1 AC. Total missing AC on the bard: +6. I've since edited the post to reflect that.)

1. I mentioned that we're using wands here. I feel that's ideal with 20 CL. If you feel another bard build is even better, I've no qualms making that comparison. But if this one stacks up well and is 'weaker', then surely, that's a point in the bard class' favor?

2. I'm not hiding the numbers here. If I felt the need to twist them, I wouldn't have included them in the plainest fashion possible. It is not uncommon for players to reroll on zoo wands. I do it; many players do it. Wands are cheap.

Even so, I didn't include skleens (which are cheap and plentiful). I didn't include a full rune set. I didn't include a Belt of Champions. I didn't include boons. These are all fine alternatives to clicking that reroll button.

If you want to assume the absolute most casual player, however, go ahead and deduct a couple points from AC/AB. We can even nuke the AC down four points. Our final total is 45 AB, 60 AC. Those are still better numbers than a Weapon Master boasts in Expertise. And we haven't even used Curse Song.

3. The "wind-up" argument keeps coming up, but I feel it's overstated. We're no longer in the shotgun Timestop meta. A bard isn't vulnerable to that anymore.

The Bard will maintain maximum stats in PvE (because there's no pressure to do otherwise). In PvP, he either turtle-buffs (possible against most build) or he drops a Timestop to ensure completion of his buff dance. Foregoing a later Timestop no longer opens the Bard to a retaliatory Timestop; any attempt to do that will simply yield a -pray and immunity to the assault.

It's possible to cancel with a counter-Timestop, sure, but a smart bard will duck LoS with an invisibility or darkness potion first. This won't work if the opponent is already fully buffed, but if that's the case, then isn't it fair to assume the bard is also?

4. Most melee builds don't have Concentration, so that argument's a non-starter. In fact, the Bard is better off than most melee builds since this skill is buffed via Bard Song, so he's not vulnerable to a junk Taunt investment.

The Listen comment is fair. I'd rather be better fighting all the time than be able to finish off the occasional stealther (which ought to struggle to kill us, regardless; they won't hit after the first flurry). Disagree? Go ahead and remove Heal and shift points from Spellcraft into Listen. You lose three to saves (the final total being more than respectable still) and just commit to using Heal potions.

Which is fine. A bard will never use heal kits in battle. The skill is just QoL.

5. Bear in mind the bard still has songs. That's an additional -2 AB, -5 AC to his direct opponent (i.e. an effective +2 AC, +5 AB for him), and an incredible 7/7 swing for his allies. We're pitting the bard 1v1 here, but we haven't even discussed his greatest strength.

If he's comparing favorably to a Paladin or a Battlecleric, that's a problem, because he's also a great support.

6. Incidentally, apologies to those that read "shame on you" as anything but tongue-in-cheek admonishment. Maybe it's cultural. I really didn't mean to offend.

Edited to add:

There also seems to be this notion that pure Bards will melt to a lot of melee classes--which is kind of nuts.

Let's be generous and assume we can't reach 100 perform for whatever reason. Our pure Bard is netting just +6 to his AC from Bard Song. This puts him 9 AC behind the Bardadin (i.e. no Fighter bonus, no Divine Shield) for a grand total of 65 AC. Now let's also add Curse Song to the mix for -2 AB to the attack.

A Weapon Master with 49 AB (i.e. 47 after Curse Song) would need an 18 (!) to hit him. That's just a 15% chance of connecting on the first attack. With concealment, that chance drops to 7.5%. On all subsequent attacks, the odds of the Weapon Master hitting drop to 5% (no concealment) vs 2.5% (concealment).

The Weapon Master can pray to remove the Curse Song, but it's not really in his favor. Curse Song is a single effect; pray will remove it entirely, allowing the Bard to reapply it while turtling in Improved Expertise. The only thing the Weapon Master accomplishes by praying is setting himself behind a 300 hit point prayer buff. That's absolutely the worst thing you can do, and any Bard would thank you kindly for doing it.

Moreover, even if a Weapon Master hits the bard, a pure Bard will be con-based. A modest* estimate:

(* Modest because we're assuming he didn't use his bonus feats on Great Constitution or take a better race for this kind of build--like gnome.)

Constitution = 17 (Base) + 2 (Gift) + 7 (Level Ups) + 12 (Buffs) = 38
Constitution Modifier = 14
Hit Points Per Level = 6 (Base) + 1 (Toughness) + 14 (Constitution) = 21
Total Hit Points = 630

Our Bard is not going to melt unless he runs AFK to to make a sandwich. Which I guess is possible, but I wouldn't count on it.