Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Sat May 11, 2019 4:05 am

Opustus wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:35 pm
Do we know what the ASF reduction for bards will be? It might be just -10% so they can use greensteel chains, large shields and leather armor, right?
It should be limited to light armors. If mechanically it's only an ASF reduction, it'll probably be a 20% - but most likely we'll see it only applying to a specific type of armor.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Jack Oat » Sat May 11, 2019 4:41 am

Peppermint wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:21 pm
Even an ASF reduction is a direct buff to divine bards.

Chainmail of the Holy Knight supplants Templar Armor/Adamantine Full Plate as best in slot (assuming a divine dip). Setting that aside, you have options like Masterly Even Chain, which still net the same AC as adamantine full plate but now yield 0% ASF casting to boot.

So let's say you decide this is a very bad idea (tm), and you're going just going to nerf medium armors across the board, the consequences for other armored classes be damned.

Great.

Now our best option becomes the Adamantine Chain Shirt if we want full spellcasting. This is at least a step down from other options in terms of raw AC. "A-ha!" you might say. "I've resolved the problem. ASF reduction requires an actual trade off for bards now!"

Well, sort of. Here's what you've done:

1. Removed medium armor from other classes as a viable option.
2. Given divine bards 0% ASF medium armor as an option. Divine bards can now run full plate in areas with attackers with high AC (for better tanking), and chain shirt in areas with attackers with low AB (for better support).

Net result: medium armor nerfed for non-bard classes, divine bards made more flexible (net buff), exclusively medium armor bards still inferior to heavily armored bards for tanking. On the bright side, said medium-armored bards no longer incur 5% ASF from greensteel. So. Mission success, I guess?

Please don't buff bards. Look, I also feel the class could use some tweaks. And options to make bards more viable as spellcasters would be cool! But class rebalancing is often a matter of give and take.

Let's put it another way. Do you remember when arcane casters were given 3/4 BAB across the board? That was terrible, right? It was a band-aid solution to facilitate spellswords; it didn't work, because making spellswords viable would have also ruined the balance of traditional spellcasters--unless something was taken from them. When that change was then reverted and the spellsword path was introduced, with clear strengths and weaknesses, it worked much better.

The same is true here. You can go for the quick solution or you can put in real work and turn out something that will make an actual difference. You don't have to make a new path, but you do have to add more than a band-aid fix. Kirito did great work with spellswords. I challenge you to do the same for bards.
This assumes, for almost all of the first half, that the ASF reduction is gonna be complete for Medium Armors. That isn't what I posted.

It seems like halfway through something clicked in your head and you realized "Oh maybe he meant give them like 5% reduction like Spellswords get so they can use Greensteel."
Which is like, y'know. What I meant. Even giving them 20% total wouldn't really allow for minmaxing chain like you recommend unless they want to switch back and forth from their shield which, while not the end of the world, isn't exactly fantastic.

My suggestion was aimed to give them Greensteel back. Yes, it would add to the diversity of available gear. But even 4/4 Greensteel Chain (which would require most Bard builds to buff up ten points of DEX to fill out) only gives +2, with a net total of +10 AC. Adamantine Fullplate is +12. Templar Armor is +11. There are better options, but this would give them a choice.

Does it directly benefit Divine Bards? Sure, slightly.

Does it make Divine Bards absolutely broken, or really make them more apparently busted than they already are? Not at all, no.

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by R0GUE » Tue May 21, 2019 3:35 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:42 pm
The ASF was supposed to be in the last update but there was a weird bug with it so it didn’t make it. Will retry this week.
Trying not to be impatient but do we know when this will be live?

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Tue May 21, 2019 10:23 pm

R0GUE wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Xerah wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:42 pm
The ASF was supposed to be in the last update but there was a weird bug with it so it didn’t make it. Will retry this week.
Trying not to be impatient but do we know when this will be live?
In my desperation, I dropped down to level 1 because I thought I could get rid of bard.
Then I realized I had taken curse song at level 1. So I'm leveling up bard again.
And currently using a 10% ASF armor, I swear I still lose 1/3 spells, which is FUNnNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by R0GUE » Wed May 22, 2019 1:11 am

Iceborn wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 10:23 pm
R0GUE wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 3:35 pm
Xerah wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:42 pm
The ASF was supposed to be in the last update but there was a weird bug with it so it didn’t make it. Will retry this week.
Trying not to be impatient but do we know when this will be live?
In my desperation, I dropped down to level 1 because I thought I could get rid of bard.
Then I realized I had taken curse song at level 1. So I'm leveling up bard again.
And currently using a 10% ASF armor, I swear I still lose 1/3 spells, which is FUNnNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
The worst is when the only Spell Failure chance you have is from your Greensteel Shield which you forgot you are carrying and lose the spell then.

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Astral » Wed May 22, 2019 4:35 am

Its been like 2-3 updates since this thread and still nothing. I'm also curious as to where this is standing. Only asking because I understand this change was approved and coded already, I dont mean to rush the developers.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Yolrii » Wed May 22, 2019 9:32 am

I'm a non-divine combat bard with cha. I basically cannot risk using my spells. I have to bardsong. And I have to buy eagles wands, despite knowing the spell, because any idiot can dispel it.

Also, my saves are garbage and because greensteel sucks, I had to build for adamantine instead, forcing me to rely on still spell and lose an entire spell circle.

It's a bit silly, really. Don't tell me I'm overpowered when I had to buy gear specifically to kill dragons with.

Your choices are pretty much divine bard with cha, or non divine without. There's only the meta and no room for more quirky builds to succeed.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Sockss » Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm

Yolrii wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:32 am
Your choices are pretty much divine bard with cha, or non divine without. There's only the meta and no room for more quirky builds to succeed.
Viable (majority) bard builds, probably not a complete list:

Pure bard full con
Pure bard 22 con, rest str
Pure bard full strength
Pure bard full dex

Bard / Harper 25/5
Bard / pal(bg) 26/4
Bard /ftr/pal(bg) 20/6/4
Bard / AA (various splits)
Bard / AA / bg/pal/hs
Bard / pdk 20/10
Bard/ftr/pdk

Meta is transient and is not the be all and end all. Depending on the matchup an off meta build will be more suited.

It's not impossible to win any matchup given equal skill, you're just a little less likely to win with an off meta build against your 'general' adversary. Which is one of the nice things about d20.

Regardless, little bit of a detail. Sorry!
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by R0GUE » Wed May 22, 2019 2:37 pm

Sockss wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm
Yolrii wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:32 am
Your choices are pretty much divine bard with cha, or non divine without. There's only the meta and no room for more quirky builds to succeed.
Viable (majority) bard builds, probably not a complete list:

Pure bard full con
Pure bard 22 con, rest str
Pure bard full strength
Pure bard full dex

Bard / Harper 25/5
Bard / pal(bg) 26/4
Bard /ftr/pal(bg) 20/6/4
Bard / AA (various splits)
Bard / AA / bg/pal/hs
Bard / pdk 20/10
Bard/ftr/pdk

Meta is transient and is not the be all and end all. Depending on the matchup an off meta build will be more suited.

It's not impossible to win any matchup given equal skill, you're just a little less likely to win with an off meta build against your 'general' adversary. Which is one of the nice things about d20.

Regardless, little bit of a detail. Sorry!
I really do feel like, while not amazing-top-tier by any stretch, my Dex based bard is pretty nice, because if I go ranged and use Spellthief Armor I can spellcast no problem, I still have my Weapon Finesse-able rapier and shield ready to go if necessary. I summon my Dire Tiger using my Olamn Harp, which lets me stay back from the fight a little bit, plus I have a small dip in Rogue to get a bit of sneak attack damage, and voila I have a fairly robust bard that can spellcast, shoot, swordfight, and buff. Assuming they add in this change to ASF I can then move to even better armors and I will be peachy keen. I'm sure there's ways to enhance this build too and make it top-tier, probably cutting the Rogue levels for AA would be the best idea, but I'm happy with what I've got.

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 pm

R0GUE wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:37 pm
Sockss wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm
Yolrii wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:32 am
Your choices are pretty much divine bard with cha, or non divine without. There's only the meta and no room for more quirky builds to succeed.
Viable (majority) bard builds, probably not a complete list:

Pure bard full con
Pure bard 22 con, rest str
Pure bard full strength
Pure bard full dex

Bard / Harper 25/5
Bard / pal(bg) 26/4
Bard /ftr/pal(bg) 20/6/4
Bard / AA (various splits)
Bard / AA / bg/pal/hs
Bard / pdk 20/10
Bard/ftr/pdk

Meta is transient and is not the be all and end all. Depending on the matchup an off meta build will be more suited.

It's not impossible to win any matchup given equal skill, you're just a little less likely to win with an off meta build against your 'general' adversary. Which is one of the nice things about d20.

Regardless, little bit of a detail. Sorry!
I really do feel like, while not amazing-top-tier by any stretch, my Dex based bard is pretty nice, because if I go ranged and use Spellthief Armor I can spellcast no problem, I still have my Weapon Finesse-able rapier and shield ready to go if necessary. I summon my Dire Tiger using my Olamn Harp, which lets me stay back from the fight a little bit, plus I have a small dip in Rogue to get a bit of sneak attack damage, and voila I have a fairly robust bard that can spellcast, shoot, swordfight, and buff. Assuming they add in this change to ASF I can then move to even better armors and I will be peachy keen. I'm sure there's ways to enhance this build too and make it top-tier, probably cutting the Rogue levels for AA would be the best idea, but I'm happy with what I've got.
My bard is better than your bard! ruefully screeched Ice from the cabinet where it is never allowed to leave and feed only on fish heads.

My gripe with dex bards is that you have a veeery limited damage source. Let's say, with mdamask rapier?
1d6 base +2d6 sneak + 2 str + 4 essence + 3 song + 6 mdamask, +2 warcry +1d6 tmp essence
That is 15 solid damage, at best, plus 4d6, averaging in 16. On the very best of the conditions.
31 of damage, about 54 on a crit (no sneak multiplier).
With the con meta being practically a permanent addition to Arelith, I cannot see this build ever succeeding alone, but I suppose it wsa never your idea to be self-reliant, which is OK.
AT LEAST, just covering the melee side. I cannot really say I know how, or if it would at all on ranged, but I'd actually like to see what the playstyle of this build actually looks like.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by R0GUE » Wed May 22, 2019 4:12 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:13 pm
R0GUE wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:37 pm
Sockss wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm


Viable (majority) bard builds, probably not a complete list:

Pure bard full con
Pure bard 22 con, rest str
Pure bard full strength
Pure bard full dex

Bard / Harper 25/5
Bard / pal(bg) 26/4
Bard /ftr/pal(bg) 20/6/4
Bard / AA (various splits)
Bard / AA / bg/pal/hs
Bard / pdk 20/10
Bard/ftr/pdk

Meta is transient and is not the be all and end all. Depending on the matchup an off meta build will be more suited.

It's not impossible to win any matchup given equal skill, you're just a little less likely to win with an off meta build against your 'general' adversary. Which is one of the nice things about d20.

Regardless, little bit of a detail. Sorry!
I really do feel like, while not amazing-top-tier by any stretch, my Dex based bard is pretty nice, because if I go ranged and use Spellthief Armor I can spellcast no problem, I still have my Weapon Finesse-able rapier and shield ready to go if necessary. I summon my Dire Tiger using my Olamn Harp, which lets me stay back from the fight a little bit, plus I have a small dip in Rogue to get a bit of sneak attack damage, and voila I have a fairly robust bard that can spellcast, shoot, swordfight, and buff. Assuming they add in this change to ASF I can then move to even better armors and I will be peachy keen. I'm sure there's ways to enhance this build too and make it top-tier, probably cutting the Rogue levels for AA would be the best idea, but I'm happy with what I've got.
My bard is better than your bard! ruefully screeched Ice from the cabinet where it is never allowed to leave and feed only on fish heads.

My gripe with dex bards is that you have a veeery limited damage source. Let's say, with mdamask rapier?
1d6 base +2d6 sneak + 2 str + 4 essence + 3 song + 6 mdamask, +2 warcry +1d6 tmp essence
That is 15 solid damage, at best, plus 4d6, averaging in 16. On the very best of the conditions.
31 of damage, about 54 on a crit (no sneak multiplier).
With the con meta being practically a permanent addition to Arelith, I cannot see this build ever succeeding alone, but I suppose it wsa never your idea to be self-reliant, which is OK.
AT LEAST, just covering the melee side. I cannot really say I know how, or if it would at all on ranged, but I'd actually like to see what the playstyle of this build actually looks like.
Oh yeh, haha I wasn't trying to measure bards or bard-shame by any stretch. :D I imagine in a 1-on-1 fight I'd be in trouble against a more optimized build. Also I realize we are getting a little off topic here, but I'm happy to share my experience if you are down to to read it.

I'm only level 16 right now but I've also gone on the PGCC to scope out the potential endgame. Re: melee, it's more of a backup tool in case I get surrounded or my dire tiger dies. But even so, when I have my greensteel shield on (which honestly I could go up to as much as a tower shield bc I shouldn't really be doing spellcasting in melee) my AC gets pretty respectable - up to around 40 at level 16 with my bard song going, I should be able to push that higher as I level up. My damage is pretty capped you are right, but if you take Impr. Crit Rapier you can make your crit chances 1 in 4, or if you stick with greensteel, just under 50% so that helps.

But mostly I summon my tiger, I use my Grand Masterly Crossbow with thrice Essenced Damask Bolts from my Stable Assembly Template. I haven't crunched the numbers but the damage output is pretty respectable, close to 40-80 at level 16. I'd OPTIMALLY like to get my UMD up to 50, (which btw the Bard Song buff to skills, does count towards UMD when its active and you can keep whatever you equipped on even after the buff ends) and find myself one of those fancy drow Spineretts. But that's a long term goal.

I can then also spellcast at will bc I have 0 ASF with my spellthief armor, or if I get in a pinch and run out of spells I have a whole row of magic instruments that especially take care of all my healing needs until I need to turn to kits which I currently have a +10 heal skill. But using my instruments I can also do things like cast Mind Fog, Mass Charm, Mass Haste, Greater Dispelling. To the person who buys costly Eagles Splendor wands above, why not instead invest in Carpentry and make yourself all the Bardic Harps you need?

Anyway, at level 16 I am fairly self-reliant, that might change as I get closer to endgame, but that's ok - I like playing in groups better anyhow. Just thought i'd explain my playstyle a bit more for anyone who is interested. (And if anyone has ideas for how to optimize it feel free to let me know).

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Wed May 22, 2019 4:30 pm

Sounds like you are doing well enough, using practically everything that you can to make it work.
I applaud that.

Levelling up with all my end-game gear most of the early levels just went flying - the
5 DR bracers are just godsend at low levels- though I still screech murder every time that I lose a spell, which I am currently on spectrum where most of the good stuff you can cast you can also get from a wand at the same efficiency.

I'm not particlarly a fan of having to sing before nearly every encounter. If it was an immediate action like the barbarian rage I'd love it, but - I dunno - I feel that it's a huge jab at the pacing, or maybe it's the repetition what gets to me. And this time I won't get lingering winspiration, which means I'm sticking to 1-minute songs.
I'm almost desperately considering to take Extended Song for those glorious... 30 seconds extra of song.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by R0GUE » Wed May 22, 2019 4:37 pm

Well enough is a good way to describe it, I'm having fun and that's all that matters. I can also see how if you don't like to manage bard song how it would sap the fun. Personally I kind of like it, I get a little thrill out of the boost I feel when it's active.

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Yolrii » Wed May 22, 2019 9:45 pm

Ooh, I'm on that list! Neat! But the reason I'm off-meta is I'm a vanguard PDK. I debuff for a living. I'm not meant to work alone.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Zavandar » Wed May 22, 2019 9:53 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:30 pm
If it was an immediate action like the barbarian rage I'd love it, but - I dunno - I feel that it's a huge jab at the pacing, or maybe it's the repetition what gets to me.
no. bad idea. bards are already one of the strongest classes in the game--when played correctly. instant action songs would make them busted.

many bards either take still spell or unequip their armor before doing their buffs. most of the buffs you'd cast are ones you wouldn't do in combat, anyway. exceptions to this are haste/mass haste, balagarn's, dismissal, and warcry. haste, balagarn's, and dismissal can all be accomplished via umd, and still spell lets you cast all of these except mass haste in armor.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Thu May 23, 2019 2:42 am

Zavandar wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Iceborn wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:30 pm
If it was an immediate action like the barbarian rage I'd love it, but - I dunno - I feel that it's a huge jab at the pacing, or maybe it's the repetition what gets to me.
no. bad idea. bards are already one of the strongest classes in the game--when played correctly. instant action songs would make them busted.

many bards either take still spell or unequip their armor before doing their buffs. most of the buffs you'd cast are ones you wouldn't do in combat, anyway. exceptions to this are haste/mass haste, balagarn's, dismissal, and warcry. haste, balagarn's, and dismissal can all be accomplished via umd, and still spell lets you cast all of these except mass haste in armor.
Ignoring the second part, I actually advocated against making bard song an instant action in the past, because yes - bardsong is already a busted ability, but...
Once it's applied? Undispellable effect for 10 minutes for most bards. The positive side of the song itself is going to go off in PvP one way or another. And the duration itself makes it so you can ambush people with it on.
And looking back at it, I don't see a particularly massive powergap; the one that should remain a standard action is curse song.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Zavandar » Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am

Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:42 am
Zavandar wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:53 pm
Iceborn wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:30 pm
If it was an immediate action like the barbarian rage I'd love it, but - I dunno - I feel that it's a huge jab at the pacing, or maybe it's the repetition what gets to me.
no. bad idea. bards are already one of the strongest classes in the game--when played correctly. instant action songs would make them busted.

many bards either take still spell or unequip their armor before doing their buffs. most of the buffs you'd cast are ones you wouldn't do in combat, anyway. exceptions to this are haste/mass haste, balagarn's, dismissal, and warcry. haste, balagarn's, and dismissal can all be accomplished via umd, and still spell lets you cast all of these except mass haste in armor.
Ignoring the second part, I actually advocated against making bard song an instant action in the past, because yes - bardsong is already a busted ability, but...
Once it's applied? Undispellable effect for 10 minutes for most bards. The positive side of the song itself is going to go off in PvP one way or another. And the duration itself makes it so you can ambush people with it on.
And looking back at it, I don't see a particularly massive powergap; the one that should remain a standard action is curse song.
it should still not be an instant action. adding to a bard's wind-up is very important. lasting inspiration letting you have it up preemptively is fine because that requires both a feat investment and 20 bard. making it instant is a HUGE buff to builds like 16/10/4 bard/pdk/paladin or 16/10/4 bard/rdd/x, which is not necessary.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Thu May 23, 2019 3:51 am

Zavandar wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am
Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:42 am
Zavandar wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:53 pm


no. bad idea. bards are already one of the strongest classes in the game--when played correctly. instant action songs would make them busted.

many bards either take still spell or unequip their armor before doing their buffs. most of the buffs you'd cast are ones you wouldn't do in combat, anyway. exceptions to this are haste/mass haste, balagarn's, dismissal, and warcry. haste, balagarn's, and dismissal can all be accomplished via umd, and still spell lets you cast all of these except mass haste in armor.
Ignoring the second part, I actually advocated against making bard song an instant action in the past, because yes - bardsong is already a busted ability, but...
Once it's applied? Undispellable effect for 10 minutes for most bards. The positive side of the song itself is going to go off in PvP one way or another. And the duration itself makes it so you can ambush people with it on.
And looking back at it, I don't see a particularly massive powergap; the one that should remain a standard action is curse song.
it should still not be an instant action. adding to a bard's wind-up is very important. lasting inspiration letting you have it up preemptively is fine because that requires both a feat investment and 20 bard. making it instant is a HUGE buff to builds like 16/10/4 bard/pdk/paladin or 16/10/4 bard/rdd/x, which is not necessary.
That doesn't sound a problem of bard itself, but of other class having uncapped potential.
And the wind up of bards is already pretty large, having to sustain 3 to 5 ability scores and then having to apply all the normal setup of buffs to, you know, not expire; in builds that come crashing down to the first minimum-level dispel.

And yes, 16 CL is the equitative of being one spell away from dropping 15 points of AC, a lot of AB, HP, saves, and immunities. Even 20 is extremely vulnerable.
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Zavandar » Thu May 23, 2019 3:54 am

Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:51 am
Zavandar wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am
Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:42 am


Ignoring the second part, I actually advocated against making bard song an instant action in the past, because yes - bardsong is already a busted ability, but...
Once it's applied? Undispellable effect for 10 minutes for most bards. The positive side of the song itself is going to go off in PvP one way or another. And the duration itself makes it so you can ambush people with it on.
And looking back at it, I don't see a particularly massive powergap; the one that should remain a standard action is curse song.
it should still not be an instant action. adding to a bard's wind-up is very important. lasting inspiration letting you have it up preemptively is fine because that requires both a feat investment and 20 bard. making it instant is a HUGE buff to builds like 16/10/4 bard/pdk/paladin or 16/10/4 bard/rdd/x, which is not necessary.
That doesn't sound a problem of bard itself, but of other class having uncapped potential.
And the wind up of bards is already pretty large, having to sustain 3 to 5 ability scores and then having to apply all the normal setup of buffs to, you know, not expire; in builds that come crashing down to the first minimum-level dispel.

And yes, 16 CL is the equitative of being one spell away from dropping 15 points of AC, a lot of AB, HP, saves, and immunities. Even 20 is extremely vulnerable.
again, the zoo buffs can all be achieved via UMD to preserve your CL vs dispels. that also has nothing to do with the wind-up. Buffs you'll just do after resting (so not in combat) do not relate to combat action economy.
Intelligence is too important

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Dreams
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Dreams » Thu May 23, 2019 4:00 am

It would be cool if Bard Song was something that was a toggled ability, requiring concentration to maintain i.e. no other spells cast during bard song. Makes more sense than instant-firing explosions of AB/AC/Saves/Skills or -AB/-AC/-saves/-skills/damage.

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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu May 23, 2019 4:04 am

Iceborn wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:30 pm

I'm not particlarly a fan of having to sing before nearly every encounter. If it was an immediate action like the barbarian rage I'd love it
sure please do this i see nothing wrong with it at all :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


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Iceborn
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Thu May 23, 2019 5:23 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:54 am
Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:51 am
Zavandar wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 am


it should still not be an instant action. adding to a bard's wind-up is very important. lasting inspiration letting you have it up preemptively is fine because that requires both a feat investment and 20 bard. making it instant is a HUGE buff to builds like 16/10/4 bard/pdk/paladin or 16/10/4 bard/rdd/x, which is not necessary.
That doesn't sound a problem of bard itself, but of other class having uncapped potential.
And the wind up of bards is already pretty large, having to sustain 3 to 5 ability scores and then having to apply all the normal setup of buffs to, you know, not expire; in builds that come crashing down to the first minimum-level dispel.

And yes, 16 CL is the equitative of being one spell away from dropping 15 points of AC, a lot of AB, HP, saves, and immunities. Even 20 is extremely vulnerable.
again, the zoo buffs can all be achieved via UMD to preserve your CL vs dispels. that also has nothing to do with the wind-up. Buffs you'll just do after resting (so not in combat) do not relate to combat action economy.
I ignored the other small bit before, because it's been argued into the ground.
Casting is part of the bard kit. If the best and most optimal solution to the approach of the class is to not use your own core class skills, then probably there's something wrong in the design there.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
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Zavandar
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Zavandar » Thu May 23, 2019 9:21 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:23 pm
Zavandar wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:54 am
Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:51 am


That doesn't sound a problem of bard itself, but of other class having uncapped potential.
And the wind up of bards is already pretty large, having to sustain 3 to 5 ability scores and then having to apply all the normal setup of buffs to, you know, not expire; in builds that come crashing down to the first minimum-level dispel.

And yes, 16 CL is the equitative of being one spell away from dropping 15 points of AC, a lot of AB, HP, saves, and immunities. Even 20 is extremely vulnerable.
again, the zoo buffs can all be achieved via UMD to preserve your CL vs dispels. that also has nothing to do with the wind-up. Buffs you'll just do after resting (so not in combat) do not relate to combat action economy.
I ignored the other small bit before, because it's been argued into the ground.
Casting is part of the bard kit. If the best and most optimal solution to the approach of the class is to not use your own core class skills, then probably there's something wrong in the design there.
or you're playing a build with low CL, which you shouldn't do anyway. imagine if 17 cleric got dispel protection.
Intelligence is too important

CptJonas
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by CptJonas » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:28 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 2:22 pm
The fact that the Divine dip gets brought up so often as a reason not to change classes, or a reason why classes are "really good if you just build them right" - that being code for dipping pally/BG, I guess? - says to me that the potency of Divine Might & Shield really need to be reexamined. My personal opinion is that their bonuses should be capped based on Paladin/BG/CoT/Cleric levels... but I realize maybe we shouldn't get into that on a thread that's supposed to be about bards.

The first thing I think of when I hear about bard song nerfs is the fact that it may make it impossible to lockpick quarters. That makes me sad.
Small question on this...
Is it just my mind doing weird sruff..or is this server, more and more inclined into changes to classes to make them less workable with other classes, and focus all on near pure classes with as little dip as posible?
Isnt it killing like 99% of enjoyment in this game which unique thing is, and allways was building freedom, and multiclassing?
Sorry if Ive got a little to much out of topic...

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Iceborn
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Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:31 pm

CptJonas wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:28 pm
magistrasa wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 2:22 pm
The fact that the Divine dip gets brought up so often as a reason not to change classes, or a reason why classes are "really good if you just build them right" - that being code for dipping pally/BG, I guess? - says to me that the potency of Divine Might & Shield really need to be reexamined. My personal opinion is that their bonuses should be capped based on Paladin/BG/CoT/Cleric levels... but I realize maybe we shouldn't get into that on a thread that's supposed to be about bards.

The first thing I think of when I hear about bard song nerfs is the fact that it may make it impossible to lockpick quarters. That makes me sad.
Small question on this...
Is it just my mind doing weird sruff..or is this server, more and more inclined into changes to classes to make them less workable with other classes, and focus all on near pure classes with as little dip as posible?
Isnt it killing like 99% of enjoyment in this game which unique thing is, and allways was building freedom, and multiclassing?
Sorry if Ive got a little to much out of topic...
There's nothing wrong with multiclassing.
There is something wrong when a multiclass is definitely more powerful than any other build variant.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

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