Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

[CptJonas]

The fact that the Divine dip gets brought up so often as a reason not to change classes, or a reason why classes are "really good if you just build them right" - that being code for dipping pally/BG, I guess? - says to me that the potency of Divine Might & Shield really need to be reexamined. My personal opinion is that their bonuses should be capped based on Paladin/BG/CoT/Cleric levels... but I realize maybe we shouldn't get into that on a thread that's supposed to be about bards.

The first thing I think of when I hear about bard song nerfs is the fact that it may make it impossible to lockpick quarters. That makes me sad.

Small question on this...
Is it just my mind doing weird sruff..or is this server, more and more inclined into changes to classes to make them less workable with other classes, and focus all on near pure classes with as little dip as posible?
Isnt it killing like 99% of enjoyment in this game which unique thing is, and allways was building freedom, and multiclassing?
Sorry if Ive got a little to much out of topic...

There's nothing wrong with multiclassing.
There is something wrong when a multiclass is definitely more powerful than any other build variant.

Well yeah....But I just hate how in game where you play one character many times for years......you could get sudenly ducked up by maybe 3 or more totaly cripling nerfs that make that character totaly unplayable....
(I actualy have friend who needed to delevel form 28-30 to 22 maybe 2 times in not even half a year and now its again )
And I once again say...why do you throw so many ultra reworks focused on "you get all cool stuff on 20+ class level" or even "on 28"?
Why there are allways nerfs..all forum and updates are like "nerf this, nerf that"....Why dont we instead buff and rework other classes, builds to be on same power level as those "OP" builds? Its allways better make buff then nerfs.....especialy in game where one spend to much time on one character..Just my oppinion...

[CosmicOrderV]

I feel like something you said sort of contradicts itself, Jonas. A friend who has many times re-made, but also mentioning how people spend too much time on one character? If one is going to rebuild that many times, maybe just move on!

That aside, your suggestion is actually what the Dev's do. The standard gauge for re-works is the Weapon Master. For a long time it was the OP go-to choice for PvP win. Then the Dev's started using it as the standard build, and try to have other builds match it in ratios of appeal and power. Things will always need to be fine tuned, though. It's all part of the fun

It could probably be even more fun if such changes somehow manifested themselves in the game, via divine DM events, to justify IC'ly why the powers-that-be change.

All this said, I'll reiterate, your idea is right on the money, you just haven't realized it's already in place!

[Nitro]

The reason things end up getting nerfed is because sometimes they're too strong when they're put in and sometimes it just takes time for the crew to see how and why that is the case. If we started buffing things to be on par with the things that get nerfed we'd get some very real power creep.

[Sockss]

I don't think there's a push to discourage multiclassing. The idea of mechanics updates, at least to my mind, is to increase the options and diversity of player characters while keeping them roughly in the same region of power of each other.

Obviously some updates don't hit the mark and actually reduce diversity (xbows, pm's, monks, katanas, racial weapons, new-race/gifts etc.), but that's the goal and pure class perks are one way of adding an extra way of playing. Sometimes they overstep the mark (Such as in the case of druids) but they're not a bad thing when balanced (like healers, for example).

[garrbear758]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but did the ASF reduction ever get implemented? If not, are there still plans to add it? I didn't see anything about it in the changelog.

[R0GUE]

It has not been added.

[R0GUE]

Sorry to revive a dead thread, but did the ASF reduction ever get implemented? If not, are there still plans to add it? I didn't see anything about it in the changelog.

Do you all think it's worth putting this back under "Suggestions" since it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle somewhere?

[Xerah]

The update got deleted without merging so it’ll just have to be done again.

[garrbear758]

The update got deleted without merging so it’ll just have to be done again.

Thank you for the head's up!

[Aodh Lazuli]

The update got deleted without merging so it’ll just have to be done again.

Please do not buff the third best class in the game (behind monk and druid).

Bards are extremely powerful at present. They do not need this change.

Signed, someone playing a bard.

[R0GUE]

The update got deleted without merging so it’ll just have to be done again.

Please do not buff the third best class in the game (behind monk and druid).

Bards are extremely powerful at present. They do not need this change.

Signed, someone playing a bard.

Only if you build them a very specific way. If you want a more dex/spellcasting version of the bard, which is a part of their kit, this change is really very desperately needed.

[Ork]

Draconic armor str bard, here we go!

[R0GUE]

Draconic armor str bard, here we go!

I feel like if certain armors are perceived as being too good for strength based bards with this change, the answer is to impose an additional ASF% to those armors specifically, sort of like Rangers Runic Vestment has right now.

Basically, the point of this change (at least to me) should be to let Dex based bards wear the same leather armors as rogues but not have to worry about the ASF.

[Subutai]

I feel like ASF stuff is done pretty well with Spellswords, where they use a combination of natural ASF reduction, and greensteel armor. It seems to me that ASF reduction could (probably should) be done in a similar way for bards so they can get down to 0% ASF in armor, but only when wearing greensteel chain, scale, or banded mail.

[Sockss]

Any bard buffs are improvements, you make an already really good class better.

It might not make the 'meta' build better, but honestly I wouldn't count on it - considering light armours are already really desirable.

There's lots of implications, like dex builds not requiring strength for divine feats (Hello paragon!) and then, if you touch up ASF on light armours, even more implications - suddenly this thing isn't so simple. (And it isn't, it isn't simple)

Bards will get an extra feat, since they'll no longer have to bother with still spell - something that was pretty good to grab if you could.

They'll also be even better party buffers with mass haste, despite already being the best!

They'll be able to cast dirge more freely which, well, that one isn't a problem.

You know what would have been cooler though, more creative, way more effective and less fraught with balancing issues as this is? Not giving bards ASF and instead giving them a short-duration buff on dirge, modifying how their summon VI worked at epic bard levels (maybe a /really/ short duration summon!), changing up their ice-storm to be sonic-based and party friendly.

That way you could tweak bards with something unique, while not having far-reaching consequences for those tweaks as they would, by their design, necessitate being cast in combat by non-platers (as you can't still spell 6th) and not potentially require a slew of item changes.

It's a needlessly buff, which may cause an over-reaching nerf and you'll see the echoes of it everywhere. (E.G. We get a needless repeater xbow update, that replaces longbows and becomes the catalyst for grinding divine archers into the mud)

[Xerah]

It's actually not going to happen anymore.

After discussion with a few people, it is just going to be an unnecessary benefit since there are already spelltheif armour if you want to be a bard that casts in armour

[Subutai]

What if bards received the Spellsword's 5% ASF reduction? Then they could throw on their chain armor (like all bards should wear) and be able to cast spells like spellswords can. It's not a huge change (just a 5% chance), meaning caster bards would be restricted to a few middle-tier armors, as opposed to being able to cast in heavy armor.

[R0GUE]

Well, this makes me extremely sad. Especially since it was literally said "this is coming". I don't know what OP bards you guys see running around causing havoc, I never see them. I feel like pretty much any melee class would wipe my character off the face of the earth and meanwhile I am struggling to solo higher level content. So this saps my will to play my bard because I was really looking forward to the change.

ASF is really such a bad system. It only makes playing "hybrid" classes super unfun. I have Spellthief Armor. I've been wearing it since about level 12. So my level 12 armor is my Endgame armor, forever. Great. I'd even probably be ecstatic if I could just cast a spell in melee without unequipping my greensteel shield first. But nope, not gonna happen. I'm sorry to sound negative. I really am. I know people work hard to make this game fun. But I feel like the other negative voices wiped out a positive change that was all but certain a few months ago.

[Peppermint]

Bard is in the running with monk and druid for hands down the strongest class in the game. Virtually every mechanically aware server nerfs them for good reason: the class really is that good.

Even with just 20 bard levels, bard song and curse song result in an effective swing of 7 AC/7 AB for the entire party. That's not to mention saving throws or skills. Even if you didn't build your bard to fight at all, you would still be one of the strongest characters in the game. Full stop.

On top of that, you can build your bard as a competent meleer or archer. Or, you can wear lighter armor and trade endurance for the ability to provide more party buffs (e.g. Mass Haste). Given how strong the class already is, do you really think it's a good idea to give bards even more versatility? Or, worse yet, turn every bard into a pure tank and support caster thanks to the existence of options like Armor of the Wilds, Rogue Leathers, and so forth?

[Sockss]

Well, this makes me extremely sad. Especially since it was literally said "this is coming". I don't know what OP bards you guys see running around causing havoc, I never see them. I feel like pretty much any melee class would wipe my character off the face of the earth and meanwhile I am struggling to solo higher level content. So this saps my will to play my bard because I was really looking forward to the change.

ASF is really such a bad system. It only makes playing "hybrid" classes super unfun. I have Spellthief Armor. I've been wearing it since about level 12. So my level 12 armor is my Endgame armor, forever. Great. I'd even probably be ecstatic if I could just cast a spell in melee without unequipping my greensteel shield first. But nope, not gonna happen. I'm sorry to sound negative. I really am. I know people work hard to make this game fun. But I feel like the other negative voices wiped out a positive change that was all but certain a few months ago.

I'd be happy to help you if you want. As Peppermint said, even with a not-optimal bard build you can still be very effective.

[R0GUE]

Well, this makes me extremely sad. Especially since it was literally said "this is coming". I don't know what OP bards you guys see running around causing havoc, I never see them. I feel like pretty much any melee class would wipe my character off the face of the earth and meanwhile I am struggling to solo higher level content. So this saps my will to play my bard because I was really looking forward to the change.

ASF is really such a bad system. It only makes playing "hybrid" classes super unfun. I have Spellthief Armor. I've been wearing it since about level 12. So my level 12 armor is my Endgame armor, forever. Great. I'd even probably be ecstatic if I could just cast a spell in melee without unequipping my greensteel shield first. But nope, not gonna happen. I'm sorry to sound negative. I really am. I know people work hard to make this game fun. But I feel like the other negative voices wiped out a positive change that was all but certain a few months ago.

I'd be happy to help you if you want. As Peppermint said, even with a not-optimal bard build you can still be very effective.

That is nice of you, but I'm just not interested in a rebuild or deleveling- I just don't have enough time to play. Part of the problem is I thought this change was coming and so I changed my build to be more melee focused than ranged. The biggest problem is that I am most likely going to end up with a character who has around a 30 AC and 280 hit points (35 AC, 320 wth bard song) and that will be just a smidge too low on both fronts to be effective at level 30. Having access to slightly better armors was really going to be a boon to my AC.

I know several other people who play high level bards too, and none of them seem like world beaters to me either. I get that having a bard in a PARTY makes a party multiplicatively better. But that's kind of a different issue in my eyes, not really related to their ASF chance.

[Sockss]

That's quite a lot under a smidge too low, most 30's should be a lot higher than that (~ double). Which is very likely why you're finding things difficult. That's arelith on hard mode, for sure and no amount of ASF will make those numbers bearable.

If you are ever interested in starting over, I'd be happy to help you flesh out a build around your concept.

[R0GUE]

That's quite a lot under a smidge too low, most 30's should be a lot higher than that (~ double). Which is very likely why you're finding things difficult. That's arelith on hard mode, for sure and no amount of ASF will make those numbers bearable.

If you are ever interested in starting over, I'd be happy to help you flesh out a build around your concept.

I guess this is why I'm having a hard time understanding. My build, which I really thought I did about as well as I possibly could given the circumstances and what I wanted to play is apparently incredibly underpowered and yet everyone tells me bards are incredibly overpowered. But as far as I can tell, there must only be one "proper" build for a bard that is actually OP. I'm not trying to be difficult, but doesn't this seem like an issue to anyone else?

[Peppermint]

Bard 30
Bard 20/Purple Dragon Knight 10
Bard 25/Fighter 5
Bard 20/Fighter 6/Paladin 4* (* Or blackguard. Or harper paragon. Note: Bard 26/Paladin 4 also works.)
Bard 16/Purple Dragon Knight 10/Paladin 4* (* Or blackguard.)
Bard 20/Fighter 5/Weapon Master 5

Not all of these are top tier (for bards), but all are solid enough to function on Arelith. Divine bards also function just fine as archers. That seems like plenty of variety to me.

[R0GUE]

Bard 30
Bard 20/Purple Dragon Knight 10
Bard 25/Fighter 5
Bard 20/Fighter 6/Paladin 4* (* Or blackguard. Or harper paragon. Note: Bard 26/Paladin 4 also works.)
Bard 16/Purple Dragon Knight 10/Paladin 4* (* Or blackguard.)
Bard 20/Fighter 5/Weapon Master 5

Not all of these are top tier (for bards), but all are solid enough to function on Arelith. Divine bards also function just fine as archers. That seems like plenty of variety to me.

3 of those builds involve multiclassing with Paladin. Not only does that not feel varied, it should be a class combo that is extremely limited in number. Bards are devil may care swashbucklers and Jack of all trades, paladins are divine champions of holy orders. I literally cannot think of two classes that are more diametrically opposed from an RP standpoint. A few of them as the exception to the rule would be fine but you are literally telling me that 3 out of 6 "right ways to play bards" involve becoming part Paladin. To me that's just absurd.

Then another class combo involves becoming a Purple Dragon Knight, which is just another flavor of tanky lawful champion.

Then finally we get to the Fighter/Bard combos, which from what I understand from the cookie cutter build guide all involve maxing Strength, dumping Dex. I haven't seen a "finesse fighter" bard build which would match the swashbuckler ideal I want in the build forums anywhere.

So really, the only one you've listed that I would even consider is the 30 bard, and I doubt even that one is a Dex based, spellcaster type bard if we are being honest. I know it would involve taking Still Spell, which means you can never cast your level 6 spells in combat reliably.

@Sockss - if you could possibly build me a swashbuckler, dex-based bard who is more a hybrid rogue/spellcaster than a fighter/tanky out of combat spellcaster, I'll take you up on your offer. We can move the discussion over to the Builds forum if this thread is getting too off topic.