Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

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Vrass
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Vrass » Sat May 25, 2019 7:55 am

So far i have never encountered pirates while out to sea except once... and funnily enough that time they were allies though i did not know they were actually pirates until later lol.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by ReverentBlade » Sat May 25, 2019 8:24 am

A couple of thoughts from a tabletop DM;

I, too, would be rather disappointed if my only pirate interaction was a simple money, life, or collar demand and abrupt PvP. That is the role of NPC villains and is not particularly compelling RP, nor is it particularly challenging for the pirate. Its cheap thrills, basically. McDonalds conflict.

-PC- pirates are supposed to be the exceptions. The pirates that stand out, that are larger than life. Pirates with class levels should be -special and interesting-. If you aren't up to the challenge of RPing out being the antagonists of a daring high seas adventure, then you should probably rethink why you're playing a pirate.

And believe me, it is not an easy ask. Not many people can play antagonists very well, but those that can, bring a ton of color to a world.

If your pirate RP boils down to a couple lines of demands and then flexing your build, maybe leave it for the DMs and NPCs. I wouldn't be mad at locking pirates behind and RPR wall, in truth, but the RPR system itself would need some scrutiny before I'd really advocate for that.

Brahtius
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Brahtius » Sat May 25, 2019 8:53 am

Play a pirate and get back to me.

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Royal Blood
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Royal Blood » Sat May 25, 2019 8:53 am

There's only one way to learn and grow as an RPer. You just gotta do it! Locking things behind RPR walls I think is only suitable for things that are very... Lore specific that would otherwise be immersion breaking or maybe world unique IC powers that benefit from a proven track record.

Anyways, I think these pirate players are being critized too much. Hopefully if they're out there and reading they can learn something and evolve as opposed to get bitter. It's not wrong to give feedback most learning is trial by fire anyways.

But if I had someone say my RP style was McDonald's like I'd feel more obligated to disreagrd those comments and be bitter rather than improve.

Also they didn't seem to Break any rules. Was it the deepest Interaction? Maybe not but idk why roast them. It was by the rules. Different choices could have been made on both sides.
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ReverentBlade
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by ReverentBlade » Sat May 25, 2019 9:12 am

Just a difference of opinion, I suppose. My background is more in pen and paper, and I firmly believe that evil characters in general should be held to a higher standard, and probably best run by people that have some storytelling experience in making "scenes" entertaining for everyone.

Brahtius
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Brahtius » Sat May 25, 2019 9:15 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 9:12 am
Just a difference of opinion, I suppose. My background is more in pen and paper, and I firmly believe that evil characters in general should be held to a higher standard, and probably best run by people that have some storytelling experience in making "scenes" entertaining for everyone.

So imagine our dismay when we evil character players have to put up with the the awful roleplay "scenes" of the plebs.

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Aftond
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Aftond » Sat May 25, 2019 9:22 am

I'd just like to point out that there is definitely more places on the main island where you can get adamantine, it's all about getting lucky with the vein. So you can avoid getting pirated, heck I've not been on a rentable boat and have got loads of addy.

As for pirates, I think it's cool that there is actually a threat on the seas but if it always is a "ur gp or ur hp" of a situation I can see it getting stale real fast.

From what I've observed, people are quick to spring into pvp these days. This hurts pirate RP, should a pirate want something more out of an RP scene.

If you go in with a mindset that says you'll have a bad time, you'll have a bad time.

Just some thoughts.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by ReverentBlade » Sat May 25, 2019 9:30 am

Brahtius wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 9:15 am
have to put up with the the awful roleplay "scenes" of the plebs.
Don't then, I guess? Not sure what point your making, unless its a weird attempt at being ironically elitist. I'm not trying to call anyone plebs.

Roleplaying well and narrative crafting are skills that have to be developed, and evil characters are intrinsically more difficult to get narrative value out of. Just the nature of the game.

I'll roll with pretty much anything thrown my way IC, but not all interactions are created equally. Sometimes I'm just along for the ride because the story aint about me, and that's what being a cooperative RPer is about. Doesn't mean they are my best experiences, and that's alright.

I don't think the OP deserves to be flamed out for making a topic that basically says "hey, I think there's ways we can all improve this interaction", though.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 25, 2019 10:40 am

I've actually been noticing something about some of the Pirate Roleplay I've seen/heard of. Now before I say this I want to stress something...

The following is a SUGGESTION and should be treated as such. Wanna ignore it? Please please feel free. It is strictly a suggestion that I think might make things more fun. And heck, who knows? On this I may be utterly wrong and if you think I'm talking out of my bum, again - just ignore! Thank you!

Try lowering your demands.

Seems to me whenever I hear of bounties being demanded, or people being attacked, words like 'slavery' or 'millions' get thrown around. That sets the mechanical bar way, way too high for a lot of people to consider.

True, the really good roleplayers may go along with it, and major kudos to them for that, but let's be honest, it is asking a lot! Most people (and I really don't blame them) will go 'uh, so it's basicaly destroy my character mechanicaly via slavery or bankrupting, loose a few hundred xp?' In todays version of fast leveling, that's really not much of a choice.

So my suggestion is.
a) If you're demanding a bounty, set the bar lower so that it's actualy something that people will consider paying. Gold in the millions, or even hundreds of thousands, is just too high for a lot of folks. Yes, maybe you are an amazing player who can play for 10 min in one session and earn ten million, but that's not true of all, or I dare say even most folk. So if you ask for something smaller, they may consider paying more often, rather than lensing.
b) If you feel you must threaten slavery, take a moment to mention in tells that it's only a threat, and you're happy to rp some form of escape for said pc, so that they don't actually end up being enslaved. Consider prisoner rp instead. Or some brief rped slavery. Or any number of other interesting Awful Things to do to people, that are fun, but don't mess them up on a mechanical level much, if at all.
c) Look for ways where you get a win that is also as fun and interesting for the looser as it is for you! Make sure the victim is comfortable with what's on the table. Be willing to back off or even roleplay a little bit of a loss perhaps. Basicaly just try and make the experience a little less all or nothing.

If you build up a reputation as being the sort of people whom loosing is -fun- to, or at least isn't absolutly crippling to, people might be more chilled about the situation.

Of course, this is just suggestions based on what I've seen and heard. I've not had my eyes massivly on the pirates DM side, so all of this may be falacious. But it's what I have observed and heard in general, and if it is true, then maybe it's something to consider!
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Brahtius
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Brahtius » Sat May 25, 2019 11:09 am

I'd just like to make comment that if this thread were titled something like "Banites, they're at it AGAIN!" it would have been locked long ago. Now we got a DM rubbishing our reputation.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat May 25, 2019 12:02 pm

I could see Sibayad getting another epic tier dungeon with an adamantite vein. Maybe out in the jungles would be another good spot. Just give people a reason to go to the less trafficed areas.

As for pirates on the sea, i have long complained that pirates don't have much for casual interaction with the rest of the surface sadly. It is one of the only ways we can reach out and rp with people.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 12:03 pm

Some of my characters i played in the past where jailed/held hostage and i always had fun with it.

The few times my characters where tortured i had fun with it.

Hells my old pirate hin was once even put in a bag by some one that god emoted it and trown in that small cell room in the Nomad then inspected for tattoo's and i just went with all of it and had a great time rping it all out.

Some times you just need to roll with stuff to get more out of a situation.

And people should not be so quick to judge other peoples rp but to all you DM's i invite you all to hover over my characters to see what they are up to and sutch.
Think you wil find that im not sutch a bad guy oocly as some try to make me look.

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Baseili
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Baseili » Sat May 25, 2019 12:17 pm

I'll weigh in as a former pirate.

To most people hiring a boat is a rarity, travelling the seas is something they'd do maybe once a week often with a set goal in mind of visiting one of the islands. To a pirate the sea is literally all you have. Once you've gained a moderate rank the pirate tattoo makes you persona non-grata in every settlement, stepping toe on the mainland usually results in a swarm against you unless you have heavy ranks in bluff, so finding a ship becomes the highlight of a pirate's otherwise isolated life.

Things may have improved since I pirated (just after the system was put in) so encounters could be more common now yet there has always been a fine line to demand. Go too high and you'll put people off but too low and you'll be seen as a joke and theres no quicker way to kill off a fun antagonist than to earn a reputation as a non-threat.
Of course on the flip side no matter what kind of pirate you are you'll still face death or imprisonment if caught, a very poor experience with the latter prompted me to delete my own pirate, so there are always two sides to consider in the fair treatment department.

As always the best thing to do is simply talk to each other in tells and always allow some wiggle room in encounters, on both sides, nothing kills the fun quicker than a tedious do or die situation.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Ork » Sat May 25, 2019 12:20 pm

A lot of people's comments are solely helpful, and advising of deeper story ideas. Sometimes it takes someone to say there could be another way before we'd consider it.

Some people's comments were abrasive and uncalled for. Evil is not held to a higher standard, and it is the responsibility of both parties to create good roleplay. Imagine if the captors tried something new, or went along with a gangplank scene instead of insta-pvp. Good shit.

The take away? "GP or HP" isn't the greatest and there are a thousand more options for pirates. Factions that operate on this premise aren't usually around for long. Old banites use to do stuff like this but they left a lingering stain on the server that for a long time Banites couldn't even gain a foothold in storytelling because people started to outright kill or ignore them. A cautionary tale, I suppose.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 25, 2019 1:35 pm

I'd just like to make comment that if this thread were titled something like "Banites, they're at it AGAIN!" it would have been locked long ago. Now we got a DM rubbishing our reputation.
I like to think that this is something all activly attacking characters should keep in mind. That if you go for the highest stakes possible, people won't go along with them as much.

As I tried to make clear...
And heck, who knows? On this I may be utterly wrong and if you think I'm talking out of my bum, again - just ignore! Thank you!
This is something I seem to have noticed that some of the more notorious pirates (who are awsome too in their own way!) do tend to go for rather high stakes? BUT! I could be utterly wrong!!!! There's lots of also really cool pirate rp going on, have no doubt! If you think I'm rubbishing your reputation, then I really do deeply apologise, that is not my intent in any way shape or form.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat May 25, 2019 1:53 pm

What's the purpose of raiding ships?

To get rich?

Wealthy?

Wealthy in coin? Or just wealthy?

Or to spread fear and terror? To become notorious and infamous?

For the sport of it? For the thrill of it?

Creativity in roleplay is hallmark of fun. The onus is never on one party to create fun. Both pirates and victims should be asking these questions during each encounter, and finding novel or new ways for everyone to approach a scenario.

edit: also what Ork said about old banites. if you ever ever get the reputation that you're not a fun bad guy, you're not going to have a good time.

conversely, if you're a fun fun bad guy people will literally crawl over each other to play with you.

Which sounds like a better time?
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Arienette » Sat May 25, 2019 3:21 pm

The IC solution to rampant piracy is for "the good guys" to make it very dangerous for the pirates to sail as well.

This means other player using settlement and rentable ships to cruise the high seas looking to engage in counter-piracy.

Sounds like a fun opportunity, and a win-win.

If you are playing a good character amped up to fight evil, you could head to the UD hoping to run into some drow to rumble with. I personally feel this can (potentially) be a bit not-nice, since you are likely to end up steamrolling some lowbies who are just out adventuring on "their turf."

On the other hand, if you head out to sea with the intent of teaching a lesson to pirates, you are likely to run into folks who are also out looking for conflict and a fight.

In short, i dont think we need mechanical or NPC elements to deter piracy. There is a great opportunity for that to be handled by PCs.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Skald Haldi » Sat May 25, 2019 3:24 pm

As a counter-point to the discussion, I recently had the exact opposite happen.

I was alone on a boat, but fully warded with a summon because those sahuagin are troublesome. More importantly, I couldn't lens out even if I wanted to. I was carrying one of those new courier packages, because I enjoy that life.

Grappled. Two pirates jump onto my boat. I look at them, they look at me. I say "Hi". They say something in a language I don't know and jump overboard. Admittedly, I was likely tougher than them, but they didn't even try to intimidate me.

The funny thing is I had money on me to pay a pirate ransom - just in case. My character doesn't take chances. If the pirates had taken the time to RP with me, I would have paid them and been happy about it. I would have loved to haggle over a proper "protection fee" or something. Instead... nothing. Just a waste of time.

My point is... both sides need to give people a chance to RP. If the mechanics (ward teleport) or meta (mean-spirited RP) discourage that, then fix the problem where it is.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Wrips » Sat May 25, 2019 5:05 pm

I don't think the problem of 'conflict rp' is reserved for pirates, only. I've seen some more conventional conflict instances that ended with very questionable quality, in roleplaying terms.

I mean, if you are a pirate sailing through the seas searching for some ship to plunder, you have previous knowledge that...well, you might meet a group of players and you are going to need to roleplay that. Likewise, if you are an unsuspecting traveller, you should be aware that there's the possibility you are going to be boarded by pirates and be prepared to react accordingly, in roleplaying terms.

The fact this type of very predicable, almost planned encounter is a source of rigid and often not fun roleplay (for both parties) really tells a lot about the current situation of 'conflict rp' as a whole.
Last edited by Wrips on Sat May 25, 2019 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 25, 2019 5:58 pm

I just want to say I am sorry that anyone feels attacked. That wasn't my intention, and in retrospect I likely should have worded my initial post differently. Try and look at this as an attempt to try and make sea travelling fun for everyone and don't take the snarky remarks personal.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Durvayas » Sat May 25, 2019 6:40 pm

As someone who plays a drow that took prisoners with the dreadnaught for ransom on a semi-regular basis, Grumpycat is somewhat on the nose.

Keep demands reasonable.
Never put enslavement on the table before you've talked to the prisoner in tells beforehand and they're on board with it. Its like waving around a gun. Unless you are ready and willing to use it, don't wave it in someone's face. If they refuse, you look impotent. Whats your PC going do say? "Uh. Well. FINE! Be that way?" No. Don't even bring it up if its not legitimately an option unless your goal is for your PC to look like a joke.

100k for a prisoner is the absolute ceiling you should aim for unless you've captured a VIP. VIP being defined in this instance as a faction leader, settlement leader, or someone your PC knows is very well connected and has powerful friends who can afford such a ransom.

Generally, the sweet spot is 30-50k a prisoner. The more prisoners you have, the more you can demand and remain reasonable. Offer a package deal. 100k for these three, 75k for two, etc.

Such sums are relatively easily recovered by those paying. They don't bankrupt the bank.

If people can't pay you've always the option of humiliating the PC by stripping them naked and giving them a lense so they can go home looking like they gambled away their life savings.
Or you can beat the crap out of them and let them limp home.
Claim a pound of flesh and cut off a hand.
Interrogate them for valuable information you can sell.

There are lots of options besides killing someone that let you be a ruthless sea mobster.

Slavery is the most lucrative option, so you should always ask if someone is down with that, but failing that, ransom and other RP works great as well.

"Stand and deliver. GP or HP?" is all well and good, but if thats the only card someone ever has to play, I question their capability of breathing nasally.
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Mitochon17 » Sat May 25, 2019 7:59 pm

Speaking as a player of a pirate captain, I have to say that Grumpy Cat and Durvayas are misinformed on the bounties. Have high bounties occurred in the past? Yes they have, however they've usually been for members of hostile factions that are riding known pirate hunting ships or fall into the VIP category as Durvayas said. It also been a while since such bounties have even occurred and even longer since any pirate has taken a slave from the sea. Speaking from my own experience leading several sea raids, we have also frequently taken small amounts of coin or items of lesser value as tax, sometimes even less than we spent warding up. Some people are just more win focused that they'd rather lens out or start a fight then pay a couple hundred to a thousand gold. If anything frequently I've seen pirates get attacked for boarding before even getting a word in.

This entire topic is kinda disingenuous as well, pirates frequently face stunted rp pretty much anywhere on the surface that consists of warding up, attacking and screaming how they're pirates because there tattoos got spotted even when said pirates weren't really doing anything, were on their side, or were greenhorns/ low level. Considering that Cordor is still one of the better locations for greenhorn pirates to level up despite the changes made to Sencliff, I'd rather first see changes made on that front.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Durvayas » Sat May 25, 2019 8:04 pm

Mitochon17 wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:59 pm
Speaking as a player of a pirate captain, I have to say that Grumpy Cat and Durvayas are misinformed on the bounties. Have high bounties occurred in the past? Yes they have, however they've usually been for members of hostile factions that are riding known pirate hunting ships or fall into the VIP category as Durvayas said. It also been a while since such bounties have even occurred and even longer since any pirate has taken a slave from the sea.
Going to point out that Rauvlin made 100k in ransoms during the Skal race. So a 'while' is subjective here. I also made it pretty clear I was speaking from my perspective. My perspective was that charging outlandish bounties is a nonstarter.

That said... this
Some people are just more win focused that they'd rather lens out or start a fight then pay a couple hundred to a thousand gold. If anything frequently I've seen pirates get attacked for boarding before even getting a word in.
... is wholly accurate. This is a problem I've run into as well.
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Mitochon17 » Sat May 25, 2019 8:22 pm

I can only really speak as a fairly active and well connected player of Sencliff when I say Sencliff pirates to my knowledge haven't ransomed anyone in a couple months now or taken a slave on a sea raid in even longer. Though some pvp has occurred.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 25, 2019 11:02 pm

Mitochon17 wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:59 pm
Speaking as a player of a pirate captain, I have to say that Grumpy Cat and Durvayas are misinformed on the bounties. Have high bounties occurred in the past? Yes they have, however they've usually been for members of hostile factions that are riding known pirate hunting ships or fall into the VIP category as Durvayas said. It also been a while since such bounties have even occurred and even longer since any pirate has taken a slave from the sea. Speaking from my own experience leading several sea raids, we have also frequently taken small amounts of coin or items of lesser value as tax, sometimes even less than we spent warding up. Some people are just more win focused that they'd rather lens out or start a fight then pay a couple hundred to a thousand gold. If anything frequently I've seen pirates get attacked for boarding before even getting a word in.

This entire topic is kinda disingenuous as well, pirates frequently face stunted rp pretty much anywhere on the surface that consists of warding up, attacking and screaming how they're pirates because there tattoos got spotted even when said pirates weren't really doing anything, were on their side, or were greenhorns/ low level. Considering that Cordor is still one of the better locations for greenhorn pirates to level up despite the changes made to Sencliff, I'd rather first see changes made on that front.
This entire post tells me you didn't read what I wrote, only saw that it was about pirates being a bit too aggressive and got defensive. I don't know about every encounter, only mine, but the only reason I was at sea was to see what pirate encounters were like and how frequent they were happening. So, no I was not there to gank the pirates or portal away at the first sign of trouble. There was 1500+ gold (all I had since I was, once again, only at sea for less then ten minutes) on the deck of the ship even after lensed out of there that I put down just in case it got to the point where I thought it was time to go.

The point of my story was that I heard it was one way, you are left with the option of slavery or death, and when I went out to experience it I found that to be true. It was only one incident so it's possible that its not always the case, but if that's what people are saying (and it is, its why I was out there in the first place at the risk of repeating myself) chances are there is something to it with more then one crew.

For what must be the sixth time now, I was totally cool with most outcomes but when it came down to slavery or death based on what the pirate pcs were saying I gave the lens a shot and it worked. So, sorry you think the thread was disingenuous, but despite your impressions I will keep trying to find a way to make these sorts of encounters fun for everyone in the best way I can. Which really comes down to starting a forum conversation, since I can't do much else beyond that.

Also, when I played a pirate, I personally never encountered frothing surfacers on arelith trying to kill me. I know when Nob's crazy circus pirate boarded a ship I was on not once but twice we let them do their thing and walk away freely despite my last character wanting to be a pirate hunter before getting sucked into cordor politics and ruining her forever. If you have a story that backs up your point that you can tell without blasting the players or calling them out by name, I say go for it. But if not, it might just be perception telling perception what's up without having any real basis to it.

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