Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri May 24, 2019 11:47 pm

First off, let me say that I absolutely love the idea behind pirates out at sea. It has the -potential- to lead to some great RP, and even some epic pvp clashes if done right. Unfortunately as my character has come to the age that he is hunting down some adamantine, a dilemma has come up that I think has the potential to totally lop side the balance of power on the server. First let me start with a bit of backstory:

So, I have been trying to get people together to go out and hunt some adamantine. On two occasions I have been told its not worth even bothering because you will either get pvp'd by pirates that always seem to be on the seas, or you will find Zinc in the one spot where it can be found on the main island because there is a big rush to circle grind it after the reset which makes the mine deteriorate. I don't know if the second half of that is true, it's a scary dungeon and since both times I've tried to get a group together I was told it was not worth it, I haven't been able to test the theory. I will speak some on adamantine veins deteriorating in the second half of the post, but first I want to focus on what I was able to test alone; Renting a boat and setting out to sea.

The Pirates

So I got my boat for 2500 coins, had about 1200 left over in my pocket, and sure enough not even ten minutes later I was boarded. This supports what people were telling me, that you can't go out to sea without running into pirates these days, but I figured there was no way all of them are as bad as described so I waited to see what would happen. A few minutes after being grappled the buffed crew hops on, and demands all my gold. Immediately I'm thinking great, this is how I envisioned the pirates to be in my mind, a bunch of bandits and not the pvp hungry slobs they were described as. Unfortunately, since I was only out there for less then ten minutes and hadn't even found a place to land yet, I only had about 1500 gold to hand over. Apparently that wasn't enough for these guys, which I guess is fine, but now my options are down to get kilt, become a slave, or portal out of there if it even works. Spoiler alert, it did work, but it left me feeling a little bummed that that is what the encounter came down too. I had no problem handing them all of my gold, I even would have had no problem working some other debt out along the way, but what I can only assume is a need for instant gratification beat out any desire for a long term story.

Now I get that not everyone is super creative, and when you are amped for pvp its easy to loose track of what's important, telling a good story. Even the best of us have been there. But if you have people saying that its not worth it to sail the seas (which is an amazing part of the server) because pirate encounters are too frequent and tend to leave little wiggle room for anything but pvp, that's not good for anyone including the pirates because the only non pirates who will be at sea will be war parties that will kill them. Add to that the fact that anyone who pays close enough attention knows that they are also grinding out adamantine at obscene rates made obvious by the fresh supply in a certain store every day, and they are going to be geared up to a point that he power gap will grow even larger, ensuring that it is not actually Cordor that rules the seas, but the pirates.

So as its against my nature to present problems unless there is a potential solution, here are two suggestions;

1) A setting through the navigator to actually try to avoid pirates that would make boat on boat encounters far less frequent. It shouldn't guarantee that there will be no pirate encounters, but it will actually happen at a bit more realistic level then just being a guarantee if pirates are on.

2) Boarding a pc ship triggers a high chance of a super powered spawn of Cordorians attacking the pirate ship, the more ships you board in a reset period the higher the chances are, making them decide if its actually worth the risk. This one would be a bit more tricky as you would need to figure out how to stop them from just hiding below, but it might be interesting if done right.

Adamantine Veins

Now I have no idea in practice how the deterioration actually works, but what I was told is that if a vein is mined 3 times or so in a reset period it deteriorates to a lesser metal, until it is eventually zinc. I get it, I really do, you don't want adamantine to become unexciting and flooded. But if this is how the solution actually works, then its creating another problem since its clear that the same groups over and over are getting to it before anyone else can.

Now, I don't know how hard this would be to script, or if its even possible, but I would suggest instead of having the vein deteriorating have it spawn upon entering the room its in with a check to see if anyone in the group has been there this reset or not. If yes, give them the zinc. If not, give them what they came for :). Sounds simple, but like I said I have no idea how much work would actually go into that. It would stop it from being grinded into oblivion after a reset though, if it is possible.

Thanks for reading, and just to be clear because its so hard to determine mood in text I am not angry at anyone in regards to the pirates I encountered or those that spam the addy mines as soon as they can like its a race (if this is actually a thing, my info on this is second hand!), I just wanted to make some suggestions that make the server better for everyone as a whole.

Nobs
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 1:26 am

If you want more out of sutch a encounter dont lense away ;)

Brahtius
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Brahtius » Sat May 25, 2019 1:39 am

There are two places accessible by sea that may potentially have adamantine. If you're a mid-to-high level epic you most likely wouldn't be able to solo either.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Hibiscus Leaves » Sat May 25, 2019 1:41 am

Nobs wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:26 am
If you want more out of sutch a encounter dont lense away ;)
get that sassy wink outta here.
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:47 pm
words
hi. for the pirates, if you think it was bad roleplay, report it. better to avoid posting stuff like this publicly because people will either get snarky or it'll just create drama/misinformation

for adamantine, that's not how the system works. every few days it rolls a new value for the vein and the vein will be that value for so-and-so days. so an adamantine vein could be arjale in 4 days and then adamantine again when it rerolls the value. it's weird. wish it'd have a threshold it couldn't go below, but we'll wait on suggestion box to be open for that. idk.

hope that helps, have a better weekend
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 2:03 am

Why would i report some one for it.

If you dont want capture / prisoner rp thats fine you can lense or fight and beat up some pirates ofcourse.

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Zavandar
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Zavandar » Sat May 25, 2019 2:06 am

Nobs wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 2:03 am
Why would i report some one for it.

If you dont want capture / prisoner rp thats fine you can lense or fight and beat up some pirates ofcourse.
i think it's a suggestion to report you

(or whoever else was present, idk)
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 2:13 am

Dont see a point to report some one for lensing away...if they want to get out of some rp they dont think is fun for them i see no point in trying to make them stay.

Its not for every one to have to try and escape or get out of some prison.
And thats ok but you wil miss out on some rp.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Ork » Sat May 25, 2019 2:16 am

A challenge to the pirates to think of other options than slavery, death, or lens. It's a great feature to be able to grapple ships and creates the opportunity for great roleplay - don't ruin it, savvy?

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 2:26 am

I played a pirate not so long ago that boarded ships to advertise her circus.

And some times when we board and just talk we still rob you even if you dont see it ;) .
To name a few things we do besides murder death kill and enslave.
Actualy think its bin a long time ago that Sencliff took a slave.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 25, 2019 2:34 am

There really is nothing to report. I didn't say any one did anything wrong, I only gave the example story to show what I found on what was really an experiment to see if what heard was true about sea travel. I am more worried about people not wanting to go out to sea at all then the particular incident, and was giving suggestions on how to make it so both sides of the conversation (pirates and those scared of them) have the potential to have fun with what is really one of the best features of the server.

And nobs, I really didn't want to get into a debate with anyone specific which is why I didn't mention anyone by name, but your insinuation that I wasn't interested in role play is kind of off. If that were true I would have lensed away before you guys even boarded, instead of waiting until it seemed like collar or death were my only options. You guys did everything by the rules, there was roleplay before anything happened and plenty of time to escape. But if that's all anyone has to hope for when they go out to sea, people are just going to stop going at all. And that would be a tragedy.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Iceborn » Sat May 25, 2019 3:10 am

Nobs wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:26 am
If you want more out of sutch a encounter dont lense away ;)
^
Sometimes you have to trust people and see where that leads you; sometimes it's a good place, sometimes it's disappointment.
I wasn't part of the situation, and I have no idea what happened. I may have lensed out as well if I felt that I was going to get corpsebashed. But maybe the situation would have been entirely different.
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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 25, 2019 3:25 am

Iceborn wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 3:10 am
Nobs wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:26 am
If you want more out of sutch a encounter dont lense away ;)
^
Sometimes you have to trust people and see where that leads you; sometimes it's a good place, sometimes it's disappointment.
I wasn't part of the situation, and I have no idea what happened. I may have lensed out as well if I felt that I was going to get corpsebashed. But maybe the situation would have been entirely different.
For sure....but I did do that. It lead to collar or death. I'm not interested in playing someone's slave so, essentially death. Since what's dead never stays dead on arelith, now you have conflict based solely on a pvp incident which leads to level 30 war parties out searching for pirates, or worse raiding sencliff. More pvp turns into more pvp, people start seeing the other guy as their enemy instead of someone they are collaborating on a story with, and eventually someone or a group of someone's gets banned for being too pvp focused. I'm not saying that's what would have happened here if it devolved into a pvp fight, in fact chances are it wouldn't have because I don't mind loosing. But even in my two years I have seen that sequence of events happen on Arelith once or twice, and given some of the attitude I have heard toward pirates from players I tried to get out and go sailing I can see it happening again here if something doesn't give.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 3:36 am

Or it leads to a grand escape that you can tell your palls about.
Maybe your palls could even get involved some how.

Also i dont mind talks like this , its all in good sport.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Zavandar » Sat May 25, 2019 3:50 am

I think a good general problem when it comes to piracy rp is its very nature. It typically boils down to "your money or your life", which is what you'd expect from a pirate. The issue is, an NPC can achieve the same thing.

so the sentiment I generally hear towards pirates is that something is always lost when people engage with them, be it time, your life, or your gold. Conversely, very rarely is gained from interacting with them. They often jump you after you farm or while you're out farming, so you stand to lose something while they don't.

EDIT: to be clear, i don't even think it's so much a problem with the players, but the dynamic itself. i feel like pirate RPers are pidgeonholed into this (and it doesn't help that they're really not allowed anywhere else either, though some of that is a product of other pirates' doings)
Last edited by Zavandar on Sat May 25, 2019 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Intelligence is too important

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by xanrael » Sat May 25, 2019 3:53 am

I think one thing to keep in mind with Sencliff is you have 2 rentable boats that often make up a significant portion of the pirate ships at sea that day.

So you can have one crew that wants the water to run red with blood regardless, another that is just looking for tribute, a third that is some lowbie hiding below deck as the spawns are too tough as they travel elsewhere, and a fourth looking for something else. Just because you see "Warship" doesn't mean you're going to encounter the same people as last time who want the same things.

I've had groups formed under the IC reason of press-gang for the day (no collar or anything else mechanical) but OOC are the exact same as a random group forming up, down to everyone getting a fair share. I'm not saying that's common, but like anything else all depends on who you run into as a "settlement" (I use that term loosely here) isn't monolithic.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 3:57 am

Pirates can lose their lives aswel in sutch encounters so they risk a lot.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Zavandar » Sat May 25, 2019 4:01 am

Nobs wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 3:57 am
Pirates can lose their lives aswel in sutch encounters so they risk a lot.
yeah, but then they rez. mechanically, they don't lose a lot. the people they rob lose stuff. and i'm not saying it's right, but a lot of times, losing several thousand gold hurts players more than a rez timer, which leads to a lot of the ooc contempt.
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 4:06 am

I cant controle for what reason people play this game mate.
If some one likes their gold more then their characters life thats fine.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Zavandar » Sat May 25, 2019 4:07 am

right, and this is why people don't want to RP with you lol.
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Nobs » Sat May 25, 2019 4:09 am

I never have problems finding people to rp with actualy.
But it seems you are mad about something so i wil stop posting after this.

Good luck and see you all in game.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Zavandar » Sat May 25, 2019 4:12 am

Nobs wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 4:09 am
I never have problems finding people to rp with actualy.
But it seems you are mad about something so i wil stop posting after this.

Good luck and see you all in game.
i actually don't think i have interacted with you more than once (and i definitely haven't been a victim of said piracy). i am speaking on behalf of several other people, though.

you are well within your right to wash your hands of responsibility, but many people don't find being on the receiving end of pirate RP interesting or engaging, hence why they frequently lens. it is not your responsibility to fix that, but don't be surprised when people don't feel like interacting with you either.
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by JubJub » Sat May 25, 2019 4:22 am

For me its not if I encounter pirates, but if everytime you go out and seems to encounter pirates it really spoils the fun of sailing. I think changes were made to where if you did open seas your chances of finding pirates increased, and if you sailed to like Brog from Cordor you were less likely. If pirate rp simply becomes pvp, my pirate was more into terrorizing the people on the ship so they would go back and spread tales of him, rather then always trying to kill the people.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Twily » Sat May 25, 2019 4:35 am

I HATE this growing phrase I've seen thrown about lately, where 'you're supposed to let the someone do whatever they want to you in order for you to have fun'.

Sure it's true 'sometimes', but in many cases this is just flat out false.
There ARE players who play with the primary intent of PvP and benefiting themselves and their friends, with little to no regard for players they interact with.

Nobs isn't the first to mention things such as how you can just lens away(or fight a fight you'll obviously lose)- but they disregard that these bad players most often try to kill you the second you use any item specifically to prevent lensing; or they have a character built with epic abjuration specifically to force someone into a position where they have to do whatever you say or get killed.

This is why it was advised the incident be reported. The DMs can look into it and decide if it was one of said cases.


Even setting aside all of that, the notion that we should have fun by letting someone else completely dictate what we do with no way of knowing their true motive or plan is equally silly.


The whole 'That isn't enough gold; we'll take it anyways, but you still either die or become a slave' highly suggests it may be one of these cases, so yes- it should be reported for the DMs to review.
Maybe it was a rule breach, maybe not- either way it'd end up being on record, so if said players continue the behavior in the manner the OP portrayed it'd establish a trend that can result in a talking to.



PS: In situations like these, it's the job of the instigator to try to make a situation fun, it's the job of those involved to give them the chance to do so.
If the instigator makes no attempt to make a situation fun for their victim, then their victim obviously isn't going to be happy nor feel a desire to give the instigator a chance.
Highway men on the road, a guard confronting a criminal, pirates raiding boats, a paladin confronting a necromancer- it applies to all of these cases. The one doing the confronting needs to think about how they'll do it, and how each approach would be for the one they're confronting.

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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Royal Blood » Sat May 25, 2019 6:35 am

I think it was a poor choice to invest into sailing knowing pirate activity was abundant. I don't see this issue as an OOC deal. Maybe the players could have had better conduct IC? But everyone is at different stages with their RP. I think it's wrong to generalize about them or speculate as to knowing their true intentions. PVP is hard to get right for both sides to enjoy.

An example I would give is that like the British empire dealing with pirates didn't take to a forum to discuss pirate conduct. They fought it out. I think the reality ATM on Arelith is that pirate factions are strong and rutheless. That's an IC story arch to be handled IC

What frustrates me is that anytime something is challenging RP wise ... Disruptive or otherwise it has to become an OOC issue. Like it's not. Pirates are an IC issue. Let's let the RP play out without grinding people into Oblivion with OOC talk until they get so tired of it they move on.

Drop the OOC stigma against other players and regard it as an IC issue. Find an IC solution
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Re: Pirates, adamantine, and the issues that are slowly arising around these two

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat May 25, 2019 7:40 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 6:35 am
I think it was a poor choice to invest into sailing knowing pirate activity was abundant. I don't see this issue as an OOC deal. Maybe the players could have had better conduct IC? But everyone is at different stages with their RP. I think it's wrong to generalize about them or speculate as to knowing their true intentions. PVP is hard to get right for both sides to enjoy.

An example I would give is that like the British empire dealing with pirates didn't take to a forum to discuss pirate conduct. They fought it out. I think the reality ATM on Arelith is that pirate factions are strong and rutheless. That's an IC story arch to be handled IC

What frustrates me is that anytime something is challenging RP wise ... Disruptive or otherwise it has to become an OOC issue. Like it's not. Pirates are an IC issue. Let's let the RP play out without grinding people into Oblivion with OOC talk until they get so tired of it they move on.

Drop the OOC stigma against other players and regard it as an IC issue. Find an IC solution
I'm not sure if you are responding to my post or not, because if you are I don't think you read the whole thing. Which is cool, I tend to ramble write and can be hard to read at times as a result. So let me TLDR it for ya. Pirates are great, I have no problem loosing my gold or even getting killed if that's how the cards get laid out, but I worry that the combination of almost being guaranteed to run into pirates mixed with collar or die being the only options will make people not travel the seas. Which will make a pirates life boring, and eliminate one of the best parts of the server for the vast majority of its players.

Now I get what nobs was implying about jumping the gun on running and not letting it play out, and perhaps that is true. But I would also respond that if the conversation between them was "lets take them hostage, see who will pay to have him freed" as opposed to "lets enslave them, maybe the drow would pay good money for him" I would never have used the lens.

Where you and I philosophically disagree is on your first sentence. On an ooc level, if there are active pirates I think its a good thing people are out on the sea. It gets really lonely out there when the seas are dead, I know that first hand after playing a pirate myself a year or so ago. So even if its ic to be hiding on the island, which its not and I will explain why in a second, its still not good for the server.

Getting to the point about being ic to fear pirates to the point of not traveling the seas, the server is more then just what happens in pvp. We live in a eco system of npcs as well, and unless something changed drastically that I missed leveling up my new character, Cordor still rules the seas and pirates aren't blockading the island driving fear into the hearts of would be seafarers. Unless that changes, it never really will be ic to fear pirates more then something that could happen on a long shot. Which brings me back to the point that the encounters may happen too often.

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