Arelith’s (surface) is once again too safe and too divided

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Many years ago I made a post on Arelith’s old forums advocating for tearing down settlements. At the time, the playerbase wasn’t as big currently, and groups of RP were becoming silo’d and isolated. Moreover, there was a general notion of safety in really an environment that should breed insecurity. Safety is great when you’re PC is retired from adventuring and kicking it back in a farm out in the Dalelands, or some apartment in Silverymoon, but not so much in the land of opportunity.

With the destruction Light Keep and then Wharftown, I thought this was going to be great and RP was going to be consolidated into larger centres. I was totally unsympathetic towards LGers who lamented they had no safehaven to RP in. I know many just shifted over to Myon to find another impregnable bastion.

I also applauded the shift from Soulhaven to Guldorand. I thought this was a great way of integrating pillars of roleplay in having to co-exist.

But, I feel like some of these efforts previously by Artos and others are being slowly unraveled. I think we need a big shakeup again.

1. The Surface has more settlements and quasi-settlements than before.

Places like Greyhammer, the Halfbreed Camp, the Order of the Radiant Heart, the Tungsten Tower, expansion of Mayfield’s, and Darrowdeep are not settlements but have taken on this undefined form. The Order of the Radiant Heart is a new functional Light Keep. All of these other little places are unique niche spots of roleplay for the sole purpose of offering unique spots. We can deliberate about Darrowdeep, but its distinctiveness is unwarranted. There’s no reason it couldn’t be attached to a pre-existing settlement.

All of these new spaces offer new safeties and new blibs of roleplay that pocket and silo. As I said years ago, we should be having less places of "safe" roleplay, not more. We need more wilderness and more bizarre locales, not more places to lord over and put up 30 fixtures.

The fact that the Heartwood Grove and Myon exist so close together is and forever will be a perfect example.

I have never believed in races have unique areas, and I think the strides to integrate Brogendenstein and Bendir Dale were excellent. But then Greyhammer got created. And then Tungsten Tower.

2. These new places are being created based off roleplay trends not lasting legacies – because there aren’t really any

Too my knowledge, the Halfbreed Camp and Greyhammer are both examples of player-created roleplay. That’s great. That’s awesome.

There’s also a reason 90% of player made shrines don’t stand the test of time. Why should these new quasi-settlements?

I don’t think being player reactionary on this kind of thing is always beneficial. We’re creating permanent areas largely as response to the impernance of specific characters and specific players. I don’t know. It feels far too reward-y. While I didn’t always agree with Mithreas, the mountainous standard to make anything a permanent fixture of the server was something I’m agreeing with more and more.

3. The shops everywhere

This is, I think, just an example of the broader idea. Everywhere you go you stumble across a shop. Or a sign for one. Why is there a shop outside of that estate east of Bendir? Why are there shops at the Crow’s Nest? Why does it seem like there are some everywhere you walk?

I don’t know if this is a response to being less-settlement dependent, or if because shops need to be more ubiquitous. But shouldn’t be commerce be intrinsically bound to a community? Why do we want PC shops littered over the server? I don’t want this to be nit-picky, but I don’t think de-centralization of anything (save maybe dungeons) is good for anyone.

4. Cordor lacks a hub district

Is it infront of the Nomad? Is it the Nomad? Is it by the bank? Is it infront of the Message Board? Is it by the fountains?

Rip on Aristotlus Street all you want, but at least you could dictate the pulse of the city by the amount of PCs loitering around.

~~~

All of this is meant to reinforce what I think is paramount to integrating new players, creating roleplay, and fostering fun – reliability. Knowing that there are areas of the server that require players to cross to at some point. Knowing that if you show up in this town or this city, you’re probably going to run into people.

Tl;dr Arelith Surface is starting too become too safe and silo’d. We need to tear down settlements and quasi-settlements and re-integrate communities together to create stronger presence and stronger hubs. By having constant, reliable friction on the Surface will overall foster a more enticing environment.

[Ebonstar]

Many years ago I made a post on Arelith’s old forums advocating for tearing down settlements. At the time, the playerbase wasn’t as big currently, and groups of RP were becoming silo’d and isolated. Moreover, there was a general notion of safety in really an environment that should breed insecurity. Safety is great when you’re PC is retired from adventuring and kicking it back in a farm out in the Dalelands, or some apartment in Silverymoon, but not so much in the land of opportunity.

With the destruction Light Keep and then Wharftown, I thought this was going to be great and RP was going to be consolidated into larger centres. I was totally unsympathetic towards LGers who lamented they had no safehaven to RP in. I know many just shifted over to Myon to find another impregnable bastion.

I also applauded the shift from Soulhaven to Guldorand. I thought this was a great way of integrating pillars of roleplay in having to co-exist.

But, I feel like some of these efforts previously by Artos and others are being slowly unraveled. I think we need a big shakeup again.

1. The Surface has more settlements and quasi-settlements than before.

Places like Greyhammer, the Halfbreed Camp, the Order of the Radiant Heart, the Tungsten Tower, expansion of Mayfield’s, and Darrowdeep are not settlements but have taken on this undefined form. The Order of the Radiant Heart is a new functional Light Keep. All of these other little places are unique niche spots of roleplay for the sole purpose of offering unique spots. We can deliberate about Darrowdeep, but its distinctiveness is unwarranted. There’s no reason it couldn’t be attached to a pre-existing settlement.

All of these new spaces offer new safeties and new blibs of roleplay that pocket and silo. As I said years ago, we should be having less places of "safe" roleplay, not more. We need more wilderness and more bizarre locales, not more places to lord over and put up 30 fixtures.

The fact that the Heartwood Grove and Myon exist so close together is and forever will be a perfect example.

I have never believed in races have unique areas, and I think the strides to integrate Brogendenstein and Bendir Dale were excellent. But then Greyhammer got created. And then Tungsten Tower.

2. These new places are being created based off roleplay trends not lasting legacies – because there aren’t really any

Too my knowledge, the Halfbreed Camp and Greyhammer are both examples of player-created roleplay. That’s great. That’s awesome.

There’s also a reason 90% of player made shrines don’t stand the test of time. Why should these new quasi-settlements?

I don’t think being player reactionary on this kind of thing is always beneficial. We’re creating permanent areas largely as response to the impernance of specific characters and specific players. I don’t know. It feels far too reward-y. While I didn’t always agree with Mithreas, the mountainous standard to make anything a permanent fixture of the server was something I’m agreeing with more and more.

3. The shops everywhere

This is, I think, just an example of the broader idea. Everywhere you go you stumble across a shop. Or a sign for one. Why is there a shop outside of that estate east of Bendir? Why are there shops at the Crow’s Nest? Why does it seem like there are some everywhere you walk?

I don’t know if this is a response to being less-settlement dependent, or if because shops need to be more ubiquitous. But shouldn’t be commerce be intrinsically bound to a community? Why do we want PC shops littered over the server? I don’t want this to be nit-picky, but I don’t think de-centralization of anything (save maybe dungeons) is good for anyone.

4. Cordor lacks a hub district

Is it infront of the Nomad? Is it the Nomad? Is it by the bank? Is it infront of the Message Board? Is it by the fountains?

Rip on Aristotlus Street all you want, but at least you could dictate the pulse of the city by the amount of PCs loitering around.

~~~

All of this is meant to reinforce what I think is paramount to integrating new players, creating roleplay, and fostering fun – reliability. Knowing that there are areas of the server that require players to cross to at some point. Knowing that if you show up in this town or this city, you’re probably going to run into people.

Tl;dr Arelith Surface is starting too become too safe and silo’d. We need to tear down settlements and quasi-settlements and re-integrate communities together to create stronger presence and stronger hubs. By having constant, reliable friction on the Surface will overall foster a more enticing environment.

ok Darrowdeep is part of Brog, just because they have a Lady of the Castle doesnt lessen that fact, that it is Vassal of the Thane.

Crows Nest is a shipping hub and makes sense to have shops

Bendir is a caravan hub, and crossroads

Greyhammer is a respite like your example of the retirement to the Dalelands

Radiant heart is the mirror for good against the Temple of Bane

Cordor has two hubs, the square near the main message board and outside the nomad

Myon if you took down the portal would be raided daily by the UD

The riverside farm shop reminds me of the old west times when farms would sell the eggs and milk and cheese to the local town, but also can sell just off the main property

I do agree with you about the signs everywhere. It has gotten stupid again, and looks like billboards along an interstate, but everything else is just fine.

Not everything can be Andunor, which only works because its Andunor

[Jack Oat]

I agree that a lot of these silly little "quasi-settlements" need to get removed. The Halfbreed camp, Greyhammer, the Liberated Territories river fort thing, etc.

I agree that giving people "bastions" where they're safe just isn't right. Benwick's Chapel getting nuked was fantastic, and I hoped at the time and now that it would represent a shift that would similarly see Myon fall from the sky and land in the woods, now open to all. Instead we got given the Radiant Heart and the "I AM A PALADIN" badge, which is lackluster and creates another of those "bastions" for RP.

It would be interesting (albeit drastic) to see the racial settlements (Bendir Dale, Brog, Myon) all completely opened up for other races to take over. If the Dwarves want a place to call home, now they have to truly unite in one spot and hold it. Same with the Elves. Same with the Halflings. Same with the Gnomes. Then, if their people aren't united they may well lose what they perceive to be their ancestral home. That would be interesting as an RP concept. As is though, Myon can have next-to-no players in its settlement (as an example, not necessarily in reality) and still be allegedly as relevant as a place like Cordor with its however many people. Opening them up would help, I think, to diffuse RP to other places and mix player groups together better.

The shops everywhere creates a market flow that I don't really want to see gone. Some shops may have fantastic wares, but good luck selling anything because they're positioned in an awful spot. Meanwhile others have prime real estate and are worth more to hold. The RP precedent is there to have something done with it, players in the various settlements and places where these shops are just need to do something to make it happen.

As for Cordor lacking a "hub district?" I played in Old Cordor. I play in New Cordor. I much prefer the dynamic now to how it was then. Before it was a single focal point that stood in the center of everything. There was no point to go elsewhere in the City unless you had business or wanted to shop. Now RP crops up naturally, and the "hub" of conversations can change. I don't see that as a bad thing. It's a natural development.
...But I would like to see King Edward die and power truly be given to the local government, instead of Invincible Plot Armor NPCs(tm) running the city with the players' efforts often feeling like they're useless.



Overall I think the best thing to do is break down some of the NPC-enforced barriers. Allow some places to become evil. Allow some to lose their racially protected status.

Allow change to what we have, rather than just tacking more stuff on.

[Intrepid42]

It would be interesting (albeit drastic) to see the racial settlements (Bendir Dale, Brog, Myon) all completely opened up for other races to take over.

This is currently the case, for Bendir and Brogendenstein at least.

Otherwise, how else could Darrowdeep function as a vassal of Brogendenstein in it's current form?

[Skald Haldi]

This post engenders a certain style of play without considering other views.

"No safety" What do you want? More PVP? Personally, I have trouble with maintaining RP because nowhere is safe enough. OTOH, I play (limited) permadeath so that life really matters. Try it sometime. Your perception of the world will change.

Regarding the divisions among players. I agree with you, but with caveats. Some places and times are dead. Not a single player to be found most times of the day. Other places and times are so crowded that you can't keep up with conversation because it all goes by so fast.

In an ideal world with no other concerns there would be one resizable RP hub for all the players. When the hub gets full, it would grow - and encourage players to branch out nearby. When the RP hub is empty, it would shrink, encouraging the remaining players to interact with each other.

[Queen Titania]

Some views posted are a bit off:

I.E., Darrowdeep is part of the auctioning system. It's not really a vassal of anything, if Myon put in more money next auction than Brog then Brog has no claim to it, thus it's changeable ownership should be kept in mind.

Greyhammer is not really a true respite. In fact, it runs the risk of being out there away from civilization and a target of attacks. It also existed before the integration of Bendir/Brog. The Tungsten Turret wasn't added because of any RP Trends either, and really is just a home building, not a guild house.

And Myon wouldn't be raided daily because raids need permission.

I've no thoughts to too much safety. I am reading safety not as PvP but conflict, tension, arguments between different groups. This friction can easily be created by players themselves and I do not think settlements are a considerable factor presently preventing that.

[Baseili]

The poetic irony here is that the percieved safety is the doing of players and that simply killing off Cordor's King wouldn't do anything to change that, though I will agree that racially locked off places typically do more harm than good in the grand scheme of things.

The biggest crime in my books is the almost utter lack of idealistic (chaos v neutral v law) conflict and of course I'll slip in my belief that every settlement should have a proverbial dark alley to foster criminals, in keeping with the sporadically followed "what you see is what you get" ethos.

For the time being the best you can do is simply enact the changes you want.

[Lady Astray]

There is plenty of conflict and PVP already, you're just not seeing it. Want PVP? Rent a ship and sail the seas. Lots of great pirate players will give it to you. Want conflict? Lots of great Banite players will give it to you. Want evil? Go hang out in the UD, lots of great players there will give it to you.

About settlements on the surface being allowed to "turn evil" though, that already happened. All the "good" characters left that settlement and now that settlement is basically a ghost town with no RP to be had. There are already three large "evil" groups and all the players who want to play "evil" characters are already there.

Stop trying to "win" and just join a team and be a team player. Stop trying to destroy or change existing teams into something they are not meant to be. That just marginalizes and alienates people and creates hurt feelings OOC.

Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.

[NauVaseline]

Barriers bad, openness good.

I cant count the # of times I've seen Greyhammer raided.

[Mr_Rieper]

Why is any of this an issue? Not understanding here, Seven. The server is more populated than it has ever been. Sometimes people want to retreat to smaller, safer areas and not have to put up with the enormous amounts of lag and unwanted company that often floods the city areas.

This is also the reason Cordor doesn't have a hub area. People can't decide which area has less lag. I often settle on the Nomad. If you're going to loiter somewhere, at least do it comfortably. The reason Aristotlus Street was a thing is because people want to see what's going on outside the Nomad, so they just stood on the other side of the area transition (which was the street). I do think having NPCs wandering around an area and "interacting" with stuff makes it uncomfortable for players that are looking to sit down and RP. The tables in Logjam, for example, are also very unhelpful if you're looking to have a conversation between 4+ people. The NPCs are especially irritating there as well, with the writ NPC spamming everybody within earshot.

Owning and maintaining a shop is absolutely a great way to make money, and makes more sense than grinding legions of creatures and taking their gold - at least from a RP perspective. It's a bit silly how there are shops absolutely everywhere but that's just how the system works. There are more players needing shops too. The problem lies with the system, which will probably take a lot of time and energy to redesign.

I agree with you that politics and the creation of lore + culture on the server has been a bit tame. But that's alright, it's not doing any harm.

Just not seeing what you're advocating for? You want more wilderness areas and people going out to grind instead of selling stuff in shops? Less lag in Cordor? I want less lag in Cordor. Oh please god make the lagging and crashing stop.

Many of the things you're asking for can be solved by doing interesting stuff on a character. If you petition the server for redesigns, there's going to be a lot of stuff that risks having no actual basis or context on the server, as usual. Are you asking the staff for a redesign? Are you asking players to be more dynamic?

**EDIT** Just going to point out the elephant in the room, since you pointed the finger at them. As a player who has gradually learned to enjoy the LG mindset, I've noticed that there are a lot of frustrations for both ordered & good characters, as well as their less morally scrupulous counterparts. If you're a good guy, you're going to have a lot of people imposing themselves on you because they think you're bored and need something to do, even if you're already occupied by something, for the sake of just creating more conflict. Is it really that surprising when people want to retreat to a safe zone and RP in peace?

I've never been the kind of person who wanted to do that, if anything I've been the opposite. I prefer proactive good. But then people complain that you're bullying the non-goods and shutting them out. Then I'm tempted to not be bothered by it. At least consider that the dynamic between "team good and team evil" is anything but as simple as that. There are many motivations for players choosing to do things, not all of them are as simple as "Nyah nyah, can't get me in here!"

[Lunargent]

I don't think everything needs to be mothballed up into several mega-cities. It's already hard to change the guard with the existing settlements how they are, having fewer, larger settlements would be a disaster. It would only make things 'safer', really, because it would become much easier to shut people out of everything with the settlement system, much like how an outcast or monster race has nowhere to go if they find themselves unwelcome in Andunor.

Some of the smaller quasi-settlements are pointless and should probably be removed, yes, but because they're irrelevant and never used, not because 'decentralization' is bad, and almost everyone I talk to wants for example the Myon mythal to be removed or changed to something less restrictive. But it's absolutely fine (and I believe beneficial) to have places which are independent and thematic because of the way the settlement system works. Also, the RH is nothing like Light Keep, there's no locked front door, no magical alignment arch, anyone can own the cave and the quarters in the fort. It has been raided multiple times, and recently even.

There is plenty of conflict that is and has been ongoing for a long time now (at least this OOC year, longer than that if you want to count other, separate conflicts that predate the ones going on now). It sounds like you're a bit out of touch, frankly. I remember old Arelith quite well, having started playing slightly after the Amia split, and I always felt it was a shame, really, that so many areas went unused in favor of loitering on Aristotlus, even within Cordor. Now things are much more spread out and organic-feeling, honestly, and I prefer it. Separation and creating different cultures which then inevitably come to clash is what actually creates meaningful conflict, not cramming everyone together.

[JubJub]

If too much safety is bad then one needs to removes evil places also like mask temple, shar tower, baneite temple, abyssal fortress. After all don't these places allow evil to RP in safety, is it a good thing baneites can attack a place then run to their temple and be safe? All these dens of evil are impregnable bastions. Having some places is great for those who want to rp in a safe place, there nothing bad about not every town can be raided. Let people decide where they wish to rp at. Honestly would never make sense to me if myon is ever opened to every race, that would be so against the way a lot of elves are. Elves might tolerate humans but do they want things like halflings and humans just wandering about?

I agree 100% there are becoming too many race specific areas. Greyhammer has never made sense to me and honestly when does it ever get used except the occasional raid? Grotto, Turret, half breed camp all underused and just spread out the races. Which is what happened in the UD, Goblins went to places, kobolds wanted to run an area, Gnolls got a cave, drow etc.. Until the UD was all spread out. The one problem with seperation is it usually creates a lot of empty areas as the players get so spread out.

Benwick and Radiant heart are nothing alike, players will never be able to run the Radiant Heart, as bad as Benwick could be at least people rp'd there, RH is just a ghost town. The fact no one will be able to speak for the whole RH is a benefit.

[Mr_Rieper]

Agree with Lunargent. Also chiming in to point out that Darrowdeep is absolutely fantastic and has been used very well. If every "quasi-settlement" was used like Darrowdeep, we'd be awash with great RP as far as the eye can see. The castle-system was a bold move, and I applaud the devs for implementing it.

I've personally never even seen the Tungsten Turret. Never needed nor wanted to visit it, so I didn't. It's not really an opinion on it, but think it may still be one shared by others.

I love the idea of Greyhammer. More so than the whole of Skal. I think it sees a fair amount of use, more than may have originally been intended, in fact.

[Durvayas]

If too much safety is bad then one needs to removes evil places also like mask temple, shar tower, baneite temple, abyssal fortress. After all don't these places allow evil to RP in safety, is it a good thing baneites can attack a place then run to their temple and be safe? All these dens of evil are impregnable bastions. Having some places is great for those who want to rp in a safe place, there nothing bad about not every town can be raided. Let people decide where they wish to rp at. Honestly would never make sense to me if myon is ever opened to every race, that would be so against the way a lot of elves are. Elves might tolerate humans but do they want things like halflings and humans just wandering about?

I agree 100% there are becoming too many race specific areas. Greyhammer has never made sense to me and honestly when does it ever get used except the occasional raid? Grotto, Turret, half breed camp all underused and just spread out the races. Which is what happened in the UD, Goblins went to places, kobolds wanted to run an area, Gnolls got a cave, drow etc.. Until the UD was all spread out. The one problem with seperation is it usually creates a lot of empty areas as the players get so spread out.

Benwick and Radiant heart are nothing alike, players will never be able to run the Radiant Heart, as bad as Benwick could be at least people rp'd there, RH is just a ghost town. The fact no one will be able to speak for the whole RH is a benefit.

Arelith's UD only needs three settlements to reach its full potential, I think.

-A drow specific settlement so that traditionalist drow RP can thrive, ideally seperated from Andunor by a short distance.
-A cosmopolitan settlement so that nontraditional drow can thrive without being under constant direct threat from the traditionalists. This settlement would be where all the UD races mingle with human, goblin, gnoll, orog, etc. populations. Andunor would almost surely fill this niche.
-A small but heavily fortified Duergar enclave.

Making seperate settlements might not even be fully nescessary. The table could be fortified further and codified to drow control permanently by restricting voting rights. The port district could become the duergar enclave with its own government, and the sharps could stay the same(mostly) cosmopolitan utopia its designed to be.

Andunor has two districts, but that results in largely polarized conflict, or an alliance with nothing going on. A third district would mix things up dramatically.

[Lady Astray]

I have to really agree with Durvayas that there could be a couple more evil settlements. Then players from "team evil" might not feel the need to constantly infiltrate surface settlements in attempts to make them "turn evil." I'm all for adding a pure drow and a duergar settlement.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I fundamentally don't believe any one single race, class, or alignment needs any kind of dedicated support. I don't think Sencliff should be relegated as a pirate haven. And I don't think Team Evil needs spots.

I think quarters can exist in maybe areas that are more pre-disposed to certain choices, but I don't think a settlement should exist.

To do any kind of roleplay, all you need is a bunch of dedicated players and a dream. The stuff you can do with fixtures is crazy nowawdays. The island is super interconnected with the ships and portals. Popularity, trends, and strong roleplaying should dictate what settlements are what.

I'm also of the belief that sometimes the choice of your race, class and alignment will sometimes make things super difficult for you. And I think that's great. I think the server is better when there are "easy roleplaying choices" and hard ones. I think that challenges players to flex a different muscle.

My general point is that while I understand individuals like have niche communities, I don't think those are good to have. And I think the Surface lacks the ability to integrate roleplayers because everyone wants to do their own thing. I'd rather people struggle to do their own thing, than be given an empty space to start their own clique.

[Mr_Rieper]

-A drow specific settlement so that traditionalist drow RP can thrive, ideally seperated from Andunor by a short distance.
-A cosmopolitan settlement so that nontraditional drow can thrive without being under constant direct threat from the traditionalists. This settlement would be where all the UD races mingle with human, goblin, gnoll, orog, etc. populations. Andunor would almost surely fill this niche.
-A small but heavily fortified Duergar enclave.

This is what we had before? Traditionalist drow RP has proven itself to be highly volatile and a big headache for the server.

Remember all the "This is not Menzo, this is Skullport" responses in threads? We definitely do not want another Udos. Nuh-uh.

It would be nice if Andunor had fortified villages out in the wilderness. I agree three in total is a good number, but 100% not racial enclaves, not in the Underdark. It seems like a great idea - until it isn't. We've been down this road many times.

I think most of what Seven is talking about here is specific to the Surface though. However, the Underdark definitely needs some sort of Outcast focused village or area, to prevent it from becoming underground Cordor. There's enough of them to require a bit of spreading out.

[Lady Astray]

I think even if a drow only city and a duergar port was added that Anundor would still have enough players to keep it interesting. Aside from drow and duergar they also have tons of humans, goblins, ogres, kobolds, gnolls, as well as slaves. And the hub would still be the hub. It would just be a few more quarters and shops for drow and duergar players which would mean more quarters and shops available to the rest of the players too. Everyone would really win. It would also create a couple more evil settlements which is probably needed seeing as there are way more good aligned settlements.

[Ork]

Hard no to race-specific settlements.

[Vrass]

We need more settlements not less. At the very least Warftown should be rebuilt. Evil needs a spot on the surface, don't listen to the morons who say otherwise. Not just because there are too few safe areas but because the world needs to continue to grow. I would love to see all three servers double in size with new towns and new wilderness areas at some point. I am currently working on several settlements i hope to get added eventually. Removing areas and towns from the server does not improve the game it detracts from it. Its the same kind of foolishness that ruined the very first server i played on.

The only thing about the surface being too safe i will concede is the lack of raids. Used to be the drow or the pirates were raiding towns every other week, now they hardly ever show up. That needs to be fixed... now.

[Lady Astray]

I can agree with Vrass. More settlements and more raids will be a good thing.

[Jack Oat]

We need more settlements not less. At the very least Warftown should be rebuilt. Evil needs a spot on the surface, don't listen to the morons who say otherwise. Not just because there are too few safe areas but because the world needs to continue to grow. I would love to see all three servers double in size with new towns and new wilderness areas at some point. I am currently working on several settlements i hope to get added eventually. Removing areas and towns from the server does not improve the game it detracts from it. Its the same kind of foolishness that ruined the very first server i played on.

Evil could use a spot on the Surface. Why not let Brog be the nexus for evil chars? Or Bendir? Or Guldorand? Why not open up and use what we have, instead of making new places and trying to shoehorn the RP into them?

Also your input from another server doesn't really provide much insight except an attempt to bolster your own sure-footedness. What about their removal made that server fail? Did they let the remaining places stagnate? Was the removal really what did it in? Without an in-depth knowledge of what happened, none of the rest of us know.

[Lady Astray]

Evil could use a spot on the Surface. Why not let Brog be the nexus for evil chars? Or Bendir? Or Guldorand? Why not open up and use what we have, instead of making new places and trying to shoehorn the RP into them?

This was done before with another settlement. All the players invested in that settlement either quit or went elsewhere. The players who want to play evil characters prefer to join evil settlements that are going to stay evil. What you're suggesting has been tried before and it just caused some of the most prominent and popular players on the server to outright quit. Please do not suggest this. I am begging you based on personal experience. It does not create conflict. It creates hurt feelings OOC and causes players to just leave the table. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time.

[Mr_Rieper]

The only thing about the surface being too safe i will concede is the lack of raids. Used to be the drow or the pirates were raiding towns every other week, now they hardly ever show up. That needs to be fixed... now.

I wholly disagree on this. The drow raids were borderline abusive at times, along with the Banite raids as well. There was a lot of OOC misdirection and dishonesty involved too, just to have the satisfaction of a brutally effective raid on a settlement every 3 RL days. I get that drow are a race that enjoy raiding but focus on quality, not quantity. The characters in that settlement need to stop what they are doing and respond to the PvP with PvP of their own. You're not adding excitement or drama, you're interrupting what they wanted to be busy with.

This is what I meant in the earlier post when Seven accused the goodies of hiding behind impenetrable walls. What rational person wouldn't, in that RP climate? You'd never be left alone to do your own thing otherwise.

Evil could use a spot on the Surface. Why not let Brog be the nexus for evil chars? Or Bendir? Or Guldorand? Why not open up and use what we have, instead of making new places and trying to shoehorn the RP into them?

Evil has a spot on the server. It's called everywhere. Where is that quote from Irongron about how he tried being inclusive to non-good in the design decisions of the server? Is that not enough? Edward Cordor married a Banite. Y'know, the same faction that has literally never left a settlement in a state better than they found it? The ones who are detrimental to society 100% of the time? All in the name of not making the Surface overly good. Which flies in the face of every effort that those characters and players made to put everything back together after the pillaging is done. It's getting tiresome that we have to shield evil characters from consequences just to have some "conflict", because everybody who lacks a moral compass apparently also lacks foresight as well.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Still on the first page, and this thread is already a excellent screenshot of how many different views and opinions Arelith has. Even the posts saying "I agree with the op!" are pretty much saying something different.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that raids need more safety most of all, as they are under the constant threat of being over done. In my humble opinion an attack on a settlement should come after two groups have been working against each other in game for a while, not just because some group got together and jammed it to thirty real fast and are now ready to show the server who is boss. When that kind of effort and story telling is put in to something, there will be no "safe" settlements because both sides know what's up and by now the DM's are in on it too. Problem solved...if you are willing to tell a story.

I do agree that Myon needs an overhaul, but that's a completely different thread and for completely different reasons.