The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

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Jack Oat
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The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:33 am

I'll keep this short. The badges are bad for RP for the following reasons:

1) They're an OOC mechanic that declares that the character holding them is a Paladin. We don't need this and it stifles RP that should be gained through IC means, i.e. proving that said character is a Paladin by doing goodly things.

2) Having the Order be a player-participated in (but not player-run) Knightly Order stifles RP for other Knightly Orders that could (and should) take up causes, rally and promote Knighthood, et cetera.

3) They're part of a "cool kids club" with no IC hierarchy in which players can participate in or enforce (there is absolutely nothing IC that forces PC Squires to listen to PC Knights aside from IC consequences that don't affect the "I AM A PALADIN" badge), no specific goals/objectives (aside from the generic tenets of "do good n stuff"), and no development.

4) The way the Order of the Radiant Heart is handled in Arelith is an insult to the actual FR Lore of the Order, which is comprised of Paladins age 40+ who are agreed upon for having done meritorious deeds by their peers and recognized as people who have lived long lives despite their usually short life expectancy occupation. Meaning they're good at their job. Meaning they're badasses.


Overall the system is just bad and doesn't promote RP. It would be neat if the Prelates were removed and instead replaced with Players who were elected by the other PC Knights of the Order, and those Knights could revoke membership, but then why go through all that trouble when you could instead just remove the entire system and let PC Orders creep back up and handle that sort of stuff in-character?

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Astral » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:06 am

Its not a very meaningful system. Paladins who choose to be Radiant heart want this "I'm a paladin yo" badge and being a paladin in the open can and probably will contribute to their story in many cases. There are the paladins who choose not to be radiant heart and that is the odd thing to do statistically right? not being a part of this order when you're a paladin. So that on its own creates questions in other characters and promotes curiosity and wouldnt be a thing if the radiant doesnt exist. Over all because it's a free badge, it wont be taken too seriously and any paladin out there will still have to prove themselves with their actions regardless so this is not more than a state of intention.
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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:16 am

Jack Oat wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:33 am
I'll keep this short. The badges are bad for RP for the following reasons:

1) They're an OOC mechanic that declares that the character holding them is a Paladin. We don't need this and it stifles RP that should be gained through IC means, i.e. proving that said character is a Paladin by doing goodly things.

2) Having the Order be a player-participated in (but not player-run) Knightly Order stifles RP for other Knightly Orders that could (and should) take up causes, rally and promote Knighthood, et cetera.

3) They're part of a "cool kids club" with no IC hierarchy in which players can participate in or enforce (there is absolutely nothing IC that forces PC Squires to listen to PC Knights aside from IC consequences that don't affect the "I AM A PALADIN" badge), no specific goals/objectives (aside from the generic tenets of "do good n stuff"), and no development.

4) The way the Order of the Radiant Heart is handled in Arelith is an insult to the actual FR Lore of the Order, which is comprised of Paladins age 40+ who are agreed upon for having done meritorious deeds by their peers and recognized as people who have lived long lives despite their usually short life expectancy occupation. Meaning they're good at their job. Meaning they're badasses.


Overall the system is just bad and doesn't promote RP. It would be neat if the Prelates were removed and instead replaced with Players who were elected by the other PC Knights of the Order, and those Knights could revoke membership, but then why go through all that trouble when you could instead just remove the entire system and let PC Orders creep back up and handle that sort of stuff in-character?
1: To be fair any paladin can achieve the same by casting 'Lay on Hands' every chance they get. The order is 'opt in' so I don't really see the problem?

2: As far as I am awear, the order about as 'player run' as say, the Arcane Tower, Druid grove, or Sibiyad. In which for the most part the NPCs let the PCs do what they want, though occasionaly throwing them tasks and missions, but will step in on certain cases - E.g. 'Oh yeah, let's have a Kobold as a member! Why not?'
This is even true of settlments to a degree. So I really don't see this changing at all.

3) Maybe there should be some more powers given to knights but not to squires sure. But the only thing that gives characters power over other characters, that I'm awear of, is the Slave Collar. What sort of 'powers' are you thinking of?

4) I've no real comment for this really.
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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Skald Haldi » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:40 am

The Radiant Heart is empty. I've spent RL days (not all at once) waiting for a single paladin to come by.

I suspect this is what Jack Oat is trying to fix. Is the badge itself the problem? I don't think so. I think it is a symptom.

If you want to make the Radiant Heart alive, the critical part of this post is the "player run" part. Right now, there is no reason to be a part of the Radiant Heart. Right now, it's treated as a convenient place to have a house. Nobody hangs out there because there is nothing to do. No quest-givers. No player involvement or function. People can pretend that there are (and have done so), but it takes a ton of personal effort for very little reward - and it withers as soon as you leave.

My character doesn't have a Radiant Heart badge. I could get it anytime, but what's the point? There's no reason or desire for such interaction from the other participants - because it's all a facade. Furthermore, the behavior of some has tainted the badge so that wearing it is actually a stain upon one's honor - not a benefit. I'd rather prove who I am by what I do.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Mr_Rieper » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:29 pm

Skald Haldi wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:40 am
My character doesn't have a Radiant Heart badge. I could get it anytime, but what's the point? There's no reason or desire for such interaction from the other participants - because it's all a facade. Furthermore, the behavior of some has tainted the badge so that wearing it is actually a stain upon one's honor - not a benefit. I'd rather prove who I am by what I do.
I think this is the main issue right here. It has an awful IC reputation. If it wasn't a permanent part of the server, it would have ungracefully faded into obscurity already.

I've met A LOT of Triadist players who believe that the Triad is some sort of stand-in for Christianity. I've seen it happen many times over the years, where characters are Triadists in name only, with a very surface-level understanding of the ideologies/philosophies they are representing. This damages the integrity of the faction, and makes them feel very out-of-place. This is why I believe the permanent Triadist guildhouses fail, though the mechanics as Jack pointed out can also be a bit obnoxious. When there's a lack of respect, both within and without the faction, it's natural for it to fall apart.

Changing the mechanics might cause players to forget about the smelly reputation in the short term, but I don't think it'll solve the problem.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Brahtius » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:31 pm

Try being a Dread Pirate. It's much, much worse.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by JubJub » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:33 pm

Skald Haldi wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:40 am
The Radiant Heart is empty. I've spent RL days (not all at once) waiting for a single paladin to come by.

I suspect this is what Jack Oat is trying to fix. Is the badge itself the problem? I don't think so. I think it is a symptom.

If you want to make the Radiant Heart alive, the critical part of this post is the "player run" part. Right now, there is no reason to be a part of the Radiant Heart. Right now, it's treated as a convenient place to have a house. Nobody hangs out there because there is nothing to do. No quest-givers. No player involvement or function. People can pretend that there are (and have done so), but it takes a ton of personal effort for very little reward - and it withers as soon as you leave.

My character doesn't have a Radiant Heart badge. I could get it anytime, but what's the point? There's no reason or desire for such interaction from the other participants - because it's all a facade. Furthermore, the behavior of some has tainted the badge so that wearing it is actually a stain upon one's honor - not a benefit. I'd rather prove who I am by what I do.
Exactly my paladin tried over and over to find a reason to join and there was nothing. I asked the a few radiant heart paladins if I could squire under them and they said no. I was rping trying to meet members, learn about the order etc before joining, but people simply didn't seem interested. Honestly since the players couldn't be bothered there wasn't any real reason to join. Not to mention my last paladin who joined had to carry around a bunch of heads for a year. there simply doesn't seem any reason to care about the order.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Lady Astray » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:41 pm

Chiming in as someone playing a "Paladin" I will never join the RH because all I've heard IC is that they are a bunch of necromancy lovers. Obviously not every RH Paladin is affiliated with necromancers but some have been and it has stained the reputation like Mr Rieper said. There are a couple of reasons I suspect for this happening.

1. Some players are hesitant to PVP even when it is more than justified so they will have their paladin sit around having tea parties IC with necromancers, Banites, demon summoners, etc. If you don't want to PVP you should really be playing a neutral character, not a paladin or a blackguard or whatever.

2. I've noticed a trend of people who want one team to win joining the opposing team and doing everything they can to sabotage them. This needs to stop. It doesn't create conflict. It drives players away from the table. Nobody wants to play with a cheater.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Mr_Rieper » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:45 pm

Brahtius wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:31 pm
Try being a Dread Pirate. It's much, much worse.
Lady Astray wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:41 pm
Chiming in as someone playing a "Paladin" I will never join the RH because all I've heard IC is that they are a bunch of necromancy lovers. Obviously not every RH Paladin is affiliated with necromancers but some have been and it has stained the reputation like Mr Rieper said. There are a couple of reasons I suspect for this happening.

1. Some players are hesitant to PVP even when it is more than justified so they will have their paladin sit around having tea parties IC with necromancers, Banites, demon summoners, etc. If you don't want to PVP you should really be playing a neutral character, not a paladin or a blackguard or whatever.

2. I've noticed a trend of people who want one team to win joining the opposing team and doing everything they can to sabotage them. This needs to stop. It doesn't create conflict. It drives players away from the table. Nobody wants to play with a cheater.
Basically, bad PR is the death of a faction. If it's a permanent part of the server, it leaves a carcass. What might solve it is a bit of DM involvement and positive use of Radiant Heart NPCs. But there's another thread about the server being too safe and too many icky paladins victimizing the innocent evils (paladin part wasn't actually said). So it's no wonder that people aren't sure about what to do. Sounds like an IC problem, tbh.

Ya'll need Nobanion.
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Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by lmoen » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:11 pm

When I played my RH paladin a year ago it was pretty thriving. There were a lot of IC efforts going around, and my paladin even had a couple of squires they were teaching.

One thing I noticed back then and wish would change with the badge is making it more inclusive. Maybe allowing CoT/Clerics/PDK to join as well. Maybe expanding it to encompass NG and LN. The one difficulty obviously is finding such a very specific kind of character to recruit. The faction back when I was playing did an excellent job of making it more inclusive then that, while always appealing to the primary base of paladins, but having this represented mechanically may also make it easier.

I don't mind that it is quiet now. It just gives an opportunity for someone else to flex their faction leadership muscle and take it into a new direction and story when they wish to make the effort.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Lady Astray » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:30 pm

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:45 pm
Basically, bad PR is the death of a faction.
Bad PR is often the result of bad RP. I hate to sit here and tell anyone their RP is bad. But if you're a former team evil player and you join a good faction/settlement with a LG alt and proceed to do objectively evil things I think the DM's should probably step in. I've noticed though that "conflict" is basically a sacred word on this server that long-time players can use to get away with anything. There also seems to be a bit of a double standard. If a bunch of LG paladin players rolled alts, rigged an election in Anundor, turned it into a bastion of righteousness, and exiled all monster races or evil spell casters, all sorts of Hell would be raised on the forums and people would get banned. But former players of characters in evil factions keep joining good settlements or factions and sabotaging them or trying to make them "turn evil" and that seems to be fine because they are creating "conflict." Only there is no actual conflict because it really just makes a bunch of players rage quit or move which leaves empty settlements and factions. It just creates resentment and actually hurts the really great players of evil characters who don't resort to these types of things because they get associated with the saboteurs.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:37 pm

I think the Radiant Heart should be shuffled to where Rosewind Troupe used to be (or the ruins of the Bluff's lighthouse), and given a separate writ system for paladins of all levels. And have unique paladin-vendors.

And be really tiny and small.

And have no badges.

I've always appreciated RH being stuck in Minmir, because as someone who was obsessed with the theories of Kohlingen, I've always loved Arelith's "north." But I find the purpose of RH to be meandering. I guess, as others have mentioned, its suppose to be a quasi-blank slate for paladins to do paladin things.

But I don't understand why paladins need to carry badges. I think there's a big difference between a knightly order and a paladin order, and I'm more convinced this system is better suited to some chivalric band, not a punch of smiters.
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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Mr_Rieper » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:39 pm

Lady Astray wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:30 pm
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:45 pm
Basically, bad PR is the death of a faction.
Bad PR is often the result of bad RP. I hate to sit here and tell anyone their RP is bad. But if you're a former team evil player and you join a good faction/settlement with a LG alt and proceed to do objectively evil things I think the DM's should probably step in. I've noticed though that "conflict" is basically a sacred word on this server that long-time players can use to get away with anything. There also seems to be a bit of a double standard. If a bunch of LG paladin players rolled alts, rigged an election in Anundor, turned it into a bastion of righteousness, and exiled all monster races or evil spell casters, all sorts of Hell would be raised on the forums and people would get banned. But former players of characters in evil factions keep joining good settlements or factions and sabotaging them or trying to make them "turn evil" and that seems to be fine because they are creating "conflict." Only there is no actual conflict because it really just makes a bunch of players rage quit or move which leaves empty settlements and factions. It just creates resentment and actually hurts the really great players of evil characters who don't resort to these types of things because they get associated with the saboteurs.
While I think there's some merit to what you're expressing here, and it certainly is a problem that players use underhanded and meta tactics like subverting with alts, I think it's going to quickly turn a thread sour when it's discussed. If there was objective proof of it, the DMs would have likely resolved the situation. I know what you're talking about, and I've seen it happen myself, long ago.

However, what I meant before wasn't active subversion or sabotage of the Triadist factions. It was more an entrenched belief that the Triad was what they wanted it to be, the Forgotten Realms version of Christianity. This bled into RP and politics, as it always does. It creates a sense of loathing and hypocrisy, instead of an active interest in whatever the faction is doing. This, coupled with impulsive decision-making, causes an active IC hatred that can't be deflected with "We're the good guys too!", and they get socially sacked on the server. Which is good, that is what should happen in those situations, it's a natural conclusion to it. However, if you want to solve the problem, changing mechanics isn't going to help.

You can see the symptoms of it immediately, however. Ilmateri who are pacifists, Tormish who don't believe in anything other than a vague concept of "good" and "justice", and Tyrrans who are compromising and overly-forgiving, possessing a very vague philosophical understanding of "justice". I'm not calling people out here, nor am I telling them they are bad RPers. But there's certainly room for improvement, and there's a lot to these gods and their ideologies that goes far, far deeper than just the surface level stuff. I highly recommend that if you're looking to be an exemplar character of these faiths, to really research it and understand what they mean to the people of Faerun.

It's not unique to the Triadists either, you see problems like these crop up in the Underdark too, where players are chasing RP that just isn't sustainable. Of course it's "interesting" to have your paladin turn traitor or fallen, which just digs the pit deeper for the whole faction. I think what the Radiant Heart needs is entirely IC, it will just take a few brave and wise players to pick it up and dust it off. Hopefully with some DM NPC help, to give some weight and direction to the RP.
Jack Oat wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:33 am
I'll keep this short. The badges are bad for RP for the following reasons:

1) They're an OOC mechanic that declares that the character holding them is a Paladin. We don't need this and it stifles RP that should be gained through IC means, i.e. proving that said character is a Paladin by doing goodly things.

2) Having the Order be a player-participated in (but not player-run) Knightly Order stifles RP for other Knightly Orders that could (and should) take up causes, rally and promote Knighthood, et cetera.

3) They're part of a "cool kids club" with no IC hierarchy in which players can participate in or enforce (there is absolutely nothing IC that forces PC Squires to listen to PC Knights aside from IC consequences that don't affect the "I AM A PALADIN" badge), no specific goals/objectives (aside from the generic tenets of "do good n stuff"), and no development.

4) The way the Order of the Radiant Heart is handled in Arelith is an insult to the actual FR Lore of the Order, which is comprised of Paladins age 40+ who are agreed upon for having done meritorious deeds by their peers and recognized as people who have lived long lives despite their usually short life expectancy occupation. Meaning they're good at their job. Meaning they're badasses.


Overall the system is just bad and doesn't promote RP. It would be neat if the Prelates were removed and instead replaced with Players who were elected by the other PC Knights of the Order, and those Knights could revoke membership, but then why go through all that trouble when you could instead just remove the entire system and let PC Orders creep back up and handle that sort of stuff in-character?
^ Back to the topic, however. Don't want to derail the thread.
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Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Lady Astray » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:00 pm

Yeah I think if the Radiant Heart had a lot of the same mechanics as settlements then a lot of the problems would be resolved naturally. They should at least have the option of banishing active supporters of necromancy from their ranks. There should also be some sort of leader or system of hierarchy that is mechanically enforced. But even with settlement mechanics we sometimes see people doing questionable things that don't really enrich RP but just marginalize other players and ruin the reputation of that settlement. DM intervention is sometimes sorely needed but as I said, someone can just invoke the word "conflict" and get away with about anything.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:30 pm

This vaguely reminds me of other topics where people suggested the assassin class be dissociated from the guild, and the Harper classes be dissociated from the group. Which I think were great ideas.

That said, if conflict and turmoil are ruining the experience for you, chances are you're missing the entire point of this server. Just like in real-life, some in-character communication of ideals and values, goes a long way to create a lasting faction. Add in players that are genuinely creative and engaging? Conflict can't do anything to hamper that dynamic. You're going to have an awesome faction that draws people in. If you then cannot gather together a solid faction of like-minded characters, continuing to pursue it becomes your prerogative, and any un-enjoyment that results is your fault. Don't do something you're not having fun with. Sometimes the way you want to have fun, won't work. Sometimes it's more fun to concede, and go along with what somebody else wants to do. Sometimes you have to work at it! It's a balance that you as a player, have to strike for yourself.

Now this said? Mechanics can ABSOLUTELY inspire role-play. It's the nature of an immersive world. Interacting with the world itself, is role-play. The world is its mechanics. These things are intrinsically linked. An alignment-centric faction, that is poorly audited, is going to bring down the quality of that role-play, without a doubt. Especially if leadership cannot be mechanically enforced. Because then anyone's claim is just as good as another's, until it breaks out to PvP or social-political strangulation of the opposing party. This can be fun, but it can also get tiring after a while, which is what I imagine is being largely expressed in this thread.

Some points of reflection:
1.) This is another thread suggesting that NPC organizations shouldn't be exclusive to certain classes. It was suggested before with Harpers and Assassins.
2.) This particular organization, the Radiant Heart, is unified behind a particular alignment.
3.) Due to the relatively basic understanding of alignment that is enforced and predicated by DM's/Admin's, there is justifiable room for 'bad' alignment role-play.
4.) If the organization is to be NPC governed, authority is only ever levied by DM's--DM's who have a policy of letting players take the lead.


I'd like to think these points have some common themes, which means the solution would be pretty straight forward (though work-intensive).
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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Lady Astray » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:44 pm

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:30 pm
Sometimes it's more fun to concede, and go along with what somebody else wants to do.
And sometimes it is not. I am a strong supporter of opening up assassination to everyone. Right now there are more pale masters and red dragon disciples than assassins in a world where settlement leaders regularly commit atrocities that should get them assassinated. These settlement leaders get killbashed with no consequence and just keep on doing their nonsense until their settlement is dead. It's absurd. If you can't keep from getting killed in PVP you really have no business bossing other players' characters around IC. I really think if assassination was more common then faction leaders would be more likely to play for keeps and support their team rather than just sabotaging the settlement so that their other character's faction could get easy wins.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Nobs » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:55 pm

Lady Astray wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:44 pm
CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:30 pm
Sometimes it's more fun to concede, and go along with what somebody else wants to do.
And sometimes it is not. I am a strong supporter of opening up assassination to everyone. Right now there are more pale masters and red dragon disciples than assassins in a world where settlement leaders regularly commit atrocities that should get them assassinated. These settlement leaders get killbashed with no consequence and just keep on doing their nonsense until their settlement is dead. It's absurd. If you can't keep from getting killed in PVP you really have no business bossing other players' characters around IC. I really think if assassination was more common then faction leaders would be more likely to play for keeps and support their team rather than just sabotaging the settlement so that their other character's faction could get easy wins.
So might makes right then?

Personaly i think a frail elderly man that is wise beyond his years would make for a fantastic leader of a town.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Lady Astray » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:25 pm

Nobs wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:55 pm
So might makes right then?

Personaly i think a frail elderly man that is wise beyond his years would make for a fantastic leader of a town.
Might makes right applies to nearly everything else. If you're sailing the seas and run into pirates, or if you're pirates boarding someone else, might makes right. If you're an elf and you encounter a drow, or the other way around, might makes right. If you're a paladin and you encounter a necromancer or demon summoner, or a blackguard who encounters a good aligned battlepriest or paladin in the company of a celestial, might makes right.

If he's really wise beyond his years, and an elderly old man, he shouldn't be putting himself in situations where he could be killed. Doing so would just be out of character. If he decides to be a tyrant and make a bunch of enemies, and gets killed, why should he continue leading? Shouldn't someone stronger or wiser take over? That's how I take it anyways. As of now long as you get enough people to vote for you with alts you can kill a settlement by completely sabotaging them. If people are gonna have an option to ruin a settlement then people should have a way to deal with it IC. Otherwise all they can do is move which leaves empty settlements.

I also understand the main argument against this is that settlements would change leaders too quickly and it might be chaotic. But I thought conflict and change were the main things people wanted? I thought people didn't want things to get stagnant? PVP is actually quite easy to avoid and even when not avoiding it and participating in many battles I have only ever died once in it. And I'm not even a good PVPer or good at building or whatever. What I'm saying is, I really think a worthy leader should be strong or smart enough to not paint a target on their face. If they're angering half the island and their own town or sailing alone unwarded then yeah they probably shouldn't be leading a settlement.

I'm not saying this to be mean. But I really don't like seeing a good, strong settlement go to rubbish because it gets taken over by someone who doesn't know how to run it or just doesn't want to run it correctly to begin with.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:53 pm

Skald Haldi wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:40 am
My character doesn't have a Radiant Heart badge. I could get it anytime, but what's the point? There's no reason or desire for such interaction from the other participants - because it's all a facade. Furthermore, the behavior of some has tainted the badge so that wearing it is actually a stain upon one's honor - not a benefit. I'd rather prove who I am by what I do.
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:29 pm
I think this is the main issue right here. It has an awful IC reputation. If it wasn't a permanent part of the server, it would have ungracefully faded into obscurity already.

...

Changing the mechanics might cause players to forget about the smelly reputation in the short term, but I don't think it'll solve the problem.
JubJub wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:33 pm
my paladin tried over and over to find a reason to join and there was nothing.
These are my point. It's an OOC forced faction that, quite frankly, should have been left to be an IC thing so it could die at its due course. There's no reason for a Paladin to take it, even without delving into the specific players or RP that's happened around it. It's just... Pointless.


DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:16 am
1: To be fair any paladin can achieve the same by casting 'Lay on Hands' every chance they get. The order is 'opt in' so I don't really see the problem?
Lay on Hands can also be cast by characters with the Champion of Torm class, so even a Lawful Neutral Banite could do it (not recommending this), technically. But I see your point. Spells that are Paladin exclusive could be as much of an indicator, yes.
As for the Order being an "opt-in," you're absolutely right. But why allow it to exist, then? It's clutter at that point. Moreover, it's clutter that we're forced to recognize and acknowledge. If PCs made a Paladin Order that garnered the sort of reputation that the Radiant Heart has ICly, other PCs could write it off as an Order of fallen paladins or whatever and not think of them as a Lawful Good entity. However, the Radiant Heart has its own permanent hall, a Deva NPC guarding it, and the backing in FR Lore that sets it as the organization that it is.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:16 am
2: As far as I am awear, the order about as 'player run' as say, the Arcane Tower, Druid grove, or Sibiyad. In which for the most part the NPCs let the PCs do what they want, though occasionaly throwing them tasks and missions, but will step in on certain cases - E.g. 'Oh yeah, let's have a Kobold as a member! Why not?'
This is even true of settlments to a degree. So I really don't see this changing at all.
Quite honestly I'm not a fan of those places/circumstances either, but the difference is that there are no card-holding members of the Arcane Tower anymore. That got revoked. There are members of different organizations inside of it, but not members of the Tower. Same goes with the Grove, with players simply giving themselves titles like "Archdruid" or whatever that are not mechanically enforced. Same with Sibayad. The Radiant Heart, however, is mechanically enforced. It's an IC faction with NPC leadership, and frankly that shouldn't be a thing.

"But Jack, what about the Assassin's Guild?" I feel the exact same on it and you'll find in my (many) suggestions on the topic that the Guild should, quite frankly, die in its current iteration.
"What about the Pirate system?" See above, but I haven't played one to post a suggestion with enough background.
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:16 am
3) Maybe there should be some more powers given to knights but not to squires sure. But the only thing that gives characters power over other characters, that I'm awear of, is the Slave Collar. What sort of 'powers' are you thinking of?
My point here was that there don't need to be mechanical "powers." That's why I ended by saying that you have more flexibility in doing your own Knight faction. Things like removing members (or even just declaring them removed), recruiting members, et cetera. Hence my bit on:
Jack Oat wrote:but then why go through all that trouble when you could instead just remove the entire system and let PC Orders creep back up and handle that sort of stuff in-character?


As an aside, I appreciate the responses that this thread has gotten. Let's keep the conversation geared toward the avenue of what promotes IC RP, rather than delving into the topics of which RP type is better.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Berried
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Post by Berried » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:06 pm

I hate to be off-topic but I think it's worth mentioning that sometimes new players take a look at the forums and the discord to get a feel for the culture of the server. When we make posts, let's make sure we're not depicting the community as more fraught with exploits/toxicity/griefing than it actually is. Those concerns should be taken to the DMs, not public spaces.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:14 pm

Without going into too much detail, there is an on-going project to touch up on the Radiant Heart membership mechanics, perks and conversation beats, taking into account current issues regarding lore and visibility. The feedback concerning current and past experiences with the RH is helpful, and will be considered.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Jack Oat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:18 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:14 pm
Without going into too much detail, there is an on-going project to touch up on the Radiant Heart membership mechanics, perks and conversation beats, taking into account current issues regarding lore and visibility. The feedback concerning current and past experiences with the RH is helpful, and will be considered.
I stand by my belief that the Radiant Heart as an NPC faction should simply be removed. We don't need new mechanics to help us RP, we need fewer NPC-run things so that our RP can carry more weight.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:01 pm

Some quick points to adress.
  • The Radient Heart is Too Quiet and needs more Stuff to get people involved. - I get this point, and to an extent it's well put, but keep in mind even with More Stuff, factions of whatever stripe - whether they be player, settlment, or quasi-settlment have their ebbs and their flows. The Radient Heart is going through an ebb at the moment. The only thing that will truly get it busy again is player effort and action. More Stuff (e.g. peddler, speedy messanger, bounty hunter, ect) will draw people in, so it'll help, but it isn't a guarantee nor a requirement.
  • The Radient Heart pin does nothing but mark you as part of the faction. Remove it or give it some form of power to make it worth while getting. - Yeah ok I can get behind this, the only real question is what powers or abilities should the pin give? This is something to be discussed I think.
  • The Radient Heart pin does not gatekeep people rping their alignment/class correctly, and this means that the order gets a bad reputation from people not Doing It Right. - Ok I see your point here - but do keep in mind that there is essentaily only two ways to gatekeep these things. Via DM (and as suggested by another poster, in this, and as is well documented by myself - we tend to be quite careful about doing this sort of thing, and don't act with a heavy hand) or via player. Via player (e.g. the setlment system) is fine, but keep in mind that the person voted in won't neccesarly be the person who you agree with.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by JubJub » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:19 pm

The Radiant heart doesn't stop pc orders from forming. That's one good thing is you can still form a faction, when it was first introduced you had the triad group and a group that was more militant, both part of the RH but both with different ideals and goals.


At the moment most paladins seem to be wanting to rp doing their own thing. It will take players to get the RH rolling again with wanting to be a knight, take in new members as squires, get people interested. But get rid of needing to carry heads about for a year. Without players making it fun you get the I'm a squire, now I'm a knight of the RH so now what, what does it mean. I always felt like a BG (who is usppose to be big bad evil with the vil reputation of being a walking fiend) why should a paladin want to hide what they are? You're suppose to be a shining example, show off that insignia to everyone. BG's and paladins imo should be relishing in their image and reputation, not trying to hide it.

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Re: The Radiant Heart Badges are a Crux for RP

Post by Ecthelion » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:00 am

As someone who plays a Paladin that wears the pin, I will say that it has never brought me much to have it, but it's not an inconveniance either.
Then there's all the rumors circulating IC, to my knowledge a lot of things I hear about never actually happened, even though I believe my character was in touch with most of the RH PCs at the time. We all know how rumor-mongering goes IC, it hardly means any of it is true. I'm quite certain we all could find dozens and dozens of things that half of the server PCs do believe and that are factually completly false, about a lot of factions, characters, etc.

The issue is that there is literally nothing to do in the RH. It's like Myon without a government. There's likely hardly a reason to head there.
Not to mention that Paladins are rarely in agreement with each other, last time there was a meeting between five of us, none of our PCs agreed on cases. Couple of attempts to pick the faction from dust failed because of that.

But let's face it it's like a lot of things, it depends on player efforts and will to pick it up. Like absolutely everything else, really.
I'm also really doubtful as to the fact that it hampers other Knightly RP, seeing that there are other factions that do such.
Also ownership of the Guildhouses are quite an issue, as it has already been seen with the sketch for the Banite one. Not sure what would be a good system for those though.

Hells if people decide that since they hear bad reputation about it, they'll just leave it and oppose those who are in, instead of trying to better it, I'm not sure that they can complain afterwards that it stays dead.

Overall I really don't think much about it being supressed or not. It's just a tool, much more as lots of other Temples and Guildhouses IC. If you want to pick it up and make something with it because you have the time and will and hype to do so, do it. If not, don't do it.

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