Monks

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Griefmaker
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Re: Monks

Post by Griefmaker » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:33 pm

Just gate monks as rangers are with their 2x AE henchmen: Require a monk to have 75% active monk levels to gain the bonus feats and everything.

Sure, you may still have WM with 5 levels, but if that is still too much, bump it up to requiring 80-85% active levels of monk.

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Monks

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:36 pm

I imagine if we changed Monk Weapons to being a player-choice, everyone would still pick katana? I find that the unfortunate bit. I think it'd be cooler if monks got to make the choice of what weapon, but had stronger bonuses. (Maybe do this, and eliminate katana?)

Also, I'd be happy if some of the abilities were just scaled down slightly, and they got Tongue of Sun & Moon instead. With the reworking of languages, I'd love it if I was just something absurd as -> "Monks with Tongue of Sun and Moon do not have a language cap based on Intelligence score, but instead [some equation with monk levels], with a pure 30 monk being able to learn every feasible language in the game."
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Re: Monks

Post by xanrael » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:39 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:36 pm
I imagine if we changed Monk Weapons to being a player-choice, everyone would still pick katana? I find that the unfortunate bit. I think it'd be cooler if monks got to make the choice of what weapon, but had stronger bonuses. (Maybe do this, and eliminate katana?)

Also, I'd be happy if some of the abilities were just scaled down slightly, and they got Tongue of Sun & Moon instead. With the reworking of languages, I'd love it if I was just something absurd as -> "Monks with Tongue of Sun and Moon do not have a language cap based on Intelligence score, but instead [some equation with monk levels], with a pure 30 monk being able to learn every feasible language in the game."
Are you saying in addition to the current implementation of Tongue of Sun and Moon, or remove the ability to understand all languages for the "joy" of being able to spend RL months and years learning them all?

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Re: Monks

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:09 pm

Replacing EDodge with DefRoll seems like a solid choice. Maybe place it slightly lower down the progression.

The notion Invader brought up about wanting to hear the design inspiration/philosophy behind the mechanics is great, though. Really I think the community would be served on the whole to see more communication from the Dev team, in this regard.

Ki-Strike bonuses come to mind. Only in 5E did monks get a sort of scaling damage for all their weapons. Now, I think 5E did a lot of stuff well, but I dont think Martial Arts Damage Die was one of them. Same here for Arelith Monk.

I think there is some simple logic. Ki, by all historical accounts, is life-force. Infusing external/material body with internal/immaterial life-force to--among other things--hone one's self into a weapon, is acutely on brand for monks. So it makes sense they would be able to do that with their fists. Doing it with weapons though? Not a huge stretch, but wait. Look at Weapon Master. That's literally what they do. So it seems a bit redundant to represent this idea, both in a prestige class, and the base class. Not only this, but the base class is a bit overtuned.

Both the above changes seem like they would be subtle enough to keep things kosher.
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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:14 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:36 am
Talking about the mechanics of the monk changes without talking about the philosophy that motivated them is, in my opinion, putting the cart before the horse. What's happening here as far as I can tell is we have a tiny handful of builds (WM being at the head of the pack) eclipsing all other builds such that anyone playing any of those other builds alongside a WM becomes a superfluous member of the party. I've been in groups with WMs and barbs (the latter of which was balanced up towards WM) running the epic UD content and the enemies were dead before my archer could even get in range to shoot. Our response to this phenomenon has been to give massive amounts of power to everyone full-stop, the net result being that rather than groups being cohesive teams where everyone plays a vital role, they are instead groups of 3-4 people clambering over each-other to get the most frags.
New players get advise from build community which will continue to have a lot more optimized build characters coming around. Rather than fighting the math, i think maybe we could leverage to our advantage to allow more optimal or even suboptimal build options.

P.S.: barbarian WM isn't top tier barbarian buuld nor wm build.

I'm a rp first kind of guy but i also like good systems. I want the system to reflect our rp intersts and not the other way around.

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Re: Monks

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:38 am

xanrael wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:39 pm
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:36 pm
I imagine if we changed Monk Weapons to being a player-choice, everyone would still pick katana? I find that the unfortunate bit. I think it'd be cooler if monks got to make the choice of what weapon, but had stronger bonuses. (Maybe do this, and eliminate katana?)

Also, I'd be happy if some of the abilities were just scaled down slightly, and they got Tongue of Sun & Moon instead. With the reworking of languages, I'd love it if I was just something absurd as -> "Monks with Tongue of Sun and Moon do not have a language cap based on Intelligence score, but instead [some equation with monk levels], with a pure 30 monk being able to learn every feasible language in the game."
Are you saying in addition to the current implementation of Tongue of Sun and Moon, or remove the ability to understand all languages for the "joy" of being able to spend RL months and years learning them all?
Definitely the latter! But monks get access to a "fast track" version that depends on monk level.
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Re: Monks

Post by Ebonstar » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:54 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:09 pm
Replacing EDodge with DefRoll seems like a solid choice. Maybe place it slightly lower down the progression.

The notion Invader brought up about wanting to hear the design inspiration/philosophy behind the mechanics is great, though. Really I think the community would be served on the whole to see more communication from the Dev team, in this regard.

Ki-Strike bonuses come to mind. Only in 5E did monks get a sort of scaling damage for all their weapons. Now, I think 5E did a lot of stuff well, but I dont think Martial Arts Damage Die was one of them. Same here for Arelith Monk.

I think there is some simple logic. Ki, by all historical accounts, is life-force. Infusing external/material body with internal/immaterial life-force to--among other things--hone one's self into a weapon, is acutely on brand for monks. So it makes sense they would be able to do that with their fists. Doing it with weapons though? Not a huge stretch, but wait. Look at Weapon Master. That's literally what they do. So it seems a bit redundant to represent this idea, both in a prestige class, and the base class. Not only this, but the base class is a bit overtuned.

Both the above changes seem like they would be subtle enough to keep things kosher.
Epic dodge and defensive roll are not even close for comparison. How can you honestly say a bonus rogue feat at level 10 is equal to epic dodge at level 28.

that is like saying here im going to take your beef wellington and give you this whopper instead
Yes I can sign

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Re: Monks

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:23 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:09 pm
Replacing EDodge with DefRoll seems like a solid choice. Maybe place it slightly lower down the progression.

The notion Invader brought up about wanting to hear the design inspiration/philosophy behind the mechanics is great, though. Really I think the community would be served on the whole to see more communication from the Dev team, in this regard.

Ki-Strike bonuses come to mind. Only in 5E did monks get a sort of scaling damage for all their weapons. Now, I think 5E did a lot of stuff well, but I dont think Martial Arts Damage Die was one of them. Same here for Arelith Monk.

I think there is some simple logic. Ki, by all historical accounts, is life-force. Infusing external/material body with internal/immaterial life-force to--among other things--hone one's self into a weapon, is acutely on brand for monks. So it makes sense they would be able to do that with their fists. Doing it with weapons though? Not a huge stretch, but wait. Look at Weapon Master. That's literally what they do. So it seems a bit redundant to represent this idea, both in a prestige class, and the base class. Not only this, but the base class is a bit overtuned.
What monks are now is pretty close to the idea of "kensai" (which I know is a dirty word around here.) They're certainly cool though I think an opportunity was missed to make unarmed wisdom based monks, which is a much different concept though more in line with the base class, much more viable. Even splitting the base class into two paths-- a spiritual master of weapons who foregoes things like spell resistance and a wisdom-based unarmed fighter who gets all the defensive perks at the expense of damage.
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:14 pm

New players get advise from build community which will continue to have a lot more optimized build characters coming around. Rather than fighting the math, i think maybe we could leverage to our advantage to allow more optimal or even suboptimal build options.
I think there's another element. With these heavily modded classes (monk, rogue, barb, spellsword, warlock etc) you pretty much HAVE to stick to the commonly accepted builds because when the classes are tweaked (and inevitably, they WILL be tweaked) those builds are what the tweaks are based on. If you stray from what the devs assume everyone is playing it is very possible a class change will screw up your character.
Last edited by Sea Shanties on Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Monks

Post by Nevrus » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:28 am

I concur that split-pathing it would go a long way to have these options be available but not overwhelming all added together.
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The Greater Good
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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:49 am

I think there's another element. With these heavily modded classes (monk, rogue, barb, spellsword, warlock etc)
That's part of it too. It can be hard even for veteran players to keep track, sometimes, of just what various things do. I know playing something like PDK, I end up having the wiki page open the entire time to reference what my dang powers do. So coming to something like these classes fresh, it's definitely going to be a more enjoyable experience to ask people 'hey how the hell do I play this'
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

xanrael
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Re: Monks

Post by xanrael » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:10 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:54 am
CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:09 pm
Replacing EDodge with DefRoll seems like a solid choice. Maybe place it slightly lower down the progression.
Epic dodge and defensive roll are not even close for comparison. How can you honestly say a bonus rogue feat at level 10 is equal to epic dodge at level 28.

that is like saying here im going to take your beef wellington and give you this whopper instead
I think the idea behind the change is a vanilla monk doesn't qualify for Epic Dodge due to lacking Defensive Roll, so they have to take some Shadowdancer (5 with no UMD gained) or Rogue (10 but at least you get UMD) to gain it. Changing E-Dodge to Defensive Roll adds a feat tax (now you have to burn an epic feat to gain E-Dodge) and prevents Strength based monks from benefiting due to the Dexterity requirement not being met. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it does follow off the whole "path" and choices talked about earlier.

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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:42 am

Ignoring everything else in that rant that's wrong, you're wrong about NWN at its core.
It's not designed, and here is the shocker, to be fun not optimal, not dismantling every point going into a box. That's, uh, exactly what it is. Because it's a fairly faithful recreation of 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, as designed by Monte Cook, for the express purpose of being spread-sheeted, argued and fiddled with, in the manner of Magic The Gathering in order to, drumroll please,
sell as many splatbooks with random must-have-feats as possible.

It's called Ivory Tower Game Design (here it is from the man himself) and it is the core concept of 3rd Edition, which NWN uses and emulates.

Also, because it bears repeating every time it rears its ridiculous head: Being able to do the basic addition that NWN occasionally requires doesn't magically make you a bad roleplayer. The Stormwind Fallacy fell out of favor everywhere but this server, it seems like, a good decade or so ago. Stop it.
I vote to trust the teams, not dissecting their hard work done for our enjoyment.
Dude? They're humans. They're humans working with a 15 year old game. Mistakes are going to happen. Chill with the weird worship, huh? You're saying don't give feedback and, uh, please look at what forum you're posting in.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Monks

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:48 am

Wonderfully put.
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NauVaseline
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Re: Monks

Post by NauVaseline » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:58 am

I think someone's playing a monk.

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Re: Monks

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:09 am

Honestly i'd just remove the option for anyone with monk levels to take WM levels.

Seems a bit extreme sure but if it's so OP compared to regular WM then simply remove that option, don't gimp pure monks that go Dex just to nerf one specific build. Currently a pure monk is perfectly fine where it is, it's got mad survivability sure but the damage is only medium at best and it does have weaknesses (just like everything else). Not to mention if you don't invest in the Epic Spell Resist feats (which is a fair few feats and detracts from other benefits) then any caster of equal level still has a decent chance to land a spell on you. Pure monks always had great survivability, but abysmal damage, now they still have that survivability and decent damage, nothing wrong with that.

The reason I think simply removing WM as an option for monks makes sense to me is entirely thematic. Monks are one discipline in the style of fighting with "Ki", a Weapon Master is another, I don't think it makes a lot of sense for someone to focus heavily in both. Sure you can still multiclass into other things as a monk or WM, or take a dip into either with different classes, but not allowing them to mix seems like a perfectly fine option to me. Plus it remedies what appears to be the main issue here, that monks are better weapon masters than fighters, which have for a very long time been renowned as being a powerbuild.

Leave pure monks alone, they're fine. Just don't let monks split their discipline and spec into WM.


The only other alternative I can think of is a complete overhaul of the class (again), which is not something i'd like to see because I honestly think the changes are fine.
But I don't mean an overhaul like they've already received but one that introduces Paths for the monk, splitting up the benefits they got with the last change and adding a few new/different ones per path.
- One path would focus entirely on unarmed combat and gain benefits suited for that. (No WM levels)
- One would focus on multiple weapons, skilled with many but a master of none. (No WM levels)
- One could focus on the magical aspect of Ki granting use/day spells and spell like abilities to compliment their inferior melee skills compared to the other paths. (No WM levels, could maybe work well with druid or cleric though)
- One could focus on stealth and subterfuge, losing some combat abilities but gaining stealth and surprise attack bonuses (No WM levels)
- And finally the last could be one that focuses on a single weapon, not unarmed, and be allowed to take WM levels but could be tailored to be on an equal(ish) footing to fighter WM cookie cutters, just with a bit of Monk flare to it instead of a standard sword and board heavy armor user!!

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Re: Monks

Post by Sockss » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:51 am

Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:09 am
Leave pure monks alone, they're fine.
They're absolutely not fine. Re-read the thread.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: Monks

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:31 pm

I've read it, and pure monks are fine, as far as "powerbuilds" go on the server they absolutely aren't the ones needing a nerf the most. They're 100% on par. I implore you to get a few people together, make 5 or 6 of the current powerbuilds on the PGCC server, best gear for all, match them all up in a tournament, and I promise you the monk won't be the victor.
If the current pure monks need a nerf then it's only after a few other builds get the same treatment before hand!!

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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:52 pm

Name the builds. Post numbers. Examples. Not 'WM,' but class comp, stats (AB, AC, SR, HP, skills).

Also, other things needing fixed (EDR 3 druid) does not make it so monk needs to get fixed 'later.' Numbers on multiple things can get tweaked at the same time.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

the grim yeeter
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Re: Monks

Post by the grim yeeter » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:51 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:31 pm
I've read it, and pure monks are fine, as far as "powerbuilds" go on the server they absolutely aren't the ones needing a nerf the most. They're 100% on par. I implore you to get a few people together, make 5 or 6 of the current powerbuilds on the PGCC server, best gear for all, match them all up in a tournament, and I promise you the monk won't be the victor.
If the current pure monks need a nerf then it's only after a few other builds get the same treatment before hand!!
Pure monks are very FAR from fine. In fact, they're one of the most imbalanced things out there currently. Let me refer to my last post in the other thread on monks: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24315&start=25
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

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Re: Monks

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:28 pm

The Greater Good wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:52 pm
Name the builds. Post numbers. Examples. Not 'WM,' but class comp, stats (AB, AC, SR, HP, skills).

Also, other things needing fixed (EDR 3 druid) does not make it so monk needs to get fixed 'later.' Numbers on multiple things can get tweaked at the same time.
Several examples have been posted here already, but I only made a suggestion, if you're curious i'm not going to do your work for you xD
If you are then go ahead and do it, if not then who cares really.
All i'm saying is I can promise you the Pure Monk won't win every time as is heavily suggested in this thread, it will come out for the most part on equal footing with other current cookie cutter builds/classes. If you wanna confirm that then have at it.

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Re: Monks

Post by Ork » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:32 pm

Ebonstar you really need to chill, man. These discussions always end up so heated for no reason. If you're playing a current monk and like your cookies ..perhaps you're bias is interfering with coming to this discussion objectively.

On Arelith, build balance depends on the optimal set. The reason is because 1) people are going to find the optimal build and 2) they're going to use it. Having suboptimal builds and arguing their case isn't effective in build balance because while you might have 20 suboptimal builds, 1-3 optimals are without viable counters.

Monks got a change. It was good because monks were boring. Every single update to classes on Arelith has had to be retuned after updates. It's inevitable. It should be accepted fact that when a new class or feature comes out that after some play time it will be looked at.

Arguing til you're blue in the face that everything is fine just doesn't fly in mechanics conversations. Everything is not fine, but everything can get there. Spellswords, Blackguards, warlocks, rogues, CoT, PDK, etc. have all been touched more than once after an update. And they're all badass classes that align well within the game's balances. Monks will be too, but it should be every players understanding on Arelith that new shiny classes get tweaked.

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Monk Nerf When

Post by Kalopsia » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:07 pm

  • "Monks have low HP, they're gonna die easily!"
    Who needs huge HP if no one's going to hit you? (They reach 480HP anyway, if well-built.)
    Very, very few builds can hit 73AC reliably - and even if they roll a 20, Epic Dodge will prevent the hit.
    If the attacker rolls a second 20 in the round? That will happen once every ~10 rounds - and it's going to be a regular hit because the chance to crit in that scenario is 0.25%.
  • "But Arcane Archers can hit monks!"
    Even Arcane Archers with their 58AB would need True Strike potions to hit a pure monk somewhat reliably - but the monk can still negate two potential hits via Epic Dodge and Deflect Arrows
  • "Their saves are quite bad though - a high DC mage will easily kill them!"
    Who needs high saves if no spell can ever touch you and you're mind immune?
    Even pure casters only have a 15% chance of hitting decently-built pure monks (48SR) with their spells. They also have no discipline, so the monk will run up, knock them down and they're basically dead.
    Conventional 27/3 builds have a 0% chance of hitting monks with their spells.
  • "Mestil's will prevent that!"
    The monk can just use shurikens to avoid the target's escape till it's out of spells.
    Alternatively? Use a Spellbane Shield (with shield proficiency as a pre-epic feat - it's not like monks are feat-starved anyway!). Equipping armor or shield doesn't lower monk SR, so the monk doesn't take any risks by doing so.
  • "But my Dragon Knight will easily kill the monk!"
    Even STR monks can reach 70 parry. DEX monks even more. Any summon will eat ripostes till it dies, and the caster can't do anything cause spells don't work.
  • "AoE spells ignore that SR!"
    Monks have high reflex saves, access to freedom potions, permanent mind immunity and 20/+1 DR, so spells like Grease, Web or Evard's Black Tentacles won't work. Any cloud spells can be removed with an Everfeather (1/day Gust of Wind).
  • "But Hellball/Gruin?"
    -pray for an instant heal.
  • "Pray is on cooldown!"
    Monks have another powerful heal effect on cooldown: Wholeness of Body.
  • "Fine. I'll kill the monk with a gonne then, like we killed PMs back in their OP days."
    Monks have huge AC against touch attacks - you'll miss every single shot.
    And even if you don't, heal potions are a thing.

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Re: Monks

Post by the grim yeeter » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:44 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:59 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:51 pm
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:31 pm
I've read it, and pure monks are fine, as far as "powerbuilds" go on the server they absolutely aren't the ones needing a nerf the most. They're 100% on par. I implore you to get a few people together, make 5 or 6 of the current powerbuilds on the PGCC server, best gear for all, match them all up in a tournament, and I promise you the monk won't be the victor.
If the current pure monks need a nerf then it's only after a few other builds get the same treatment before hand!!
Pure monks are very FAR from fine. In fact, they're one of the most imbalanced things out there currently. Let me refer to my last post in the other thread on monks: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24315&start=25
its pretty bad when to prove your point on your own post, you have to refer to your own post on another thread. maybe im not the stupid one afterall
lmao, what? I don't even know what you're trying to say here, dude. How is that.. bad? Are you okay, man? As Ork said, calm down. You're very obviously biased because you're playing a monk yourself. Moreover, for every "point" you're trying to make, you keep providing really poor evidence that has either been proven counterable, weak or is actually just plain wrong.

As Ork said as well:
Ork wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:32 pm
On Arelith, build balance depends on the optimal set. The reason is because 1) people are going to find the optimal build and 2) they're going to use it. Having suboptimal builds and arguing their case isn't effective in build balance because while you might have 20 suboptimal builds, 1-3 optimals are without viable counters.
Just because your monk is built suboptimally or you're playing it incorrectly, mechanically, does not mean the class is not strong. In fact, in this case, it means that you're not doing something right.

Balancing has to be done based on the most optimal assumptions for every class, race or build, and the relation between these three. In balancing, suboptimal builds and players who are not good at the game should not be taken into account, because then these people will be consistently bulldozered over by those who do/can built optimally and are actually good at the game (see the people playing monolith druids and still complaining that they're dying).

Accept that your class may be nerfed when balancing is necessary. And in the case of the current monk, it absolutely is, whether you like it or not.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

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Re: Monks

Post by Lunargent » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:01 pm

The game is typically balanced not around people who are bad at the game, but around those who at least competent in the basic mechanics of what they're playing.

If you're plugging your ears and going 'nuh uh' when people are giving you actual numbers I'm not sure what to say, except that you're not contributing very much to the conversation.

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Re: Monks

Post by Dreams » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:02 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:59 pm
maybe im not the stupid one afterall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbuVif1YzJw

On topic, though, it's not about throwing stats. These people have really thought the problem through. Take some time to read what they're saying and try to understand it. You directly benefit from doing so, because it can help you improve your own monk that you're clearly playing and not wanting to have nerfed.

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