Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

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Subutai
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Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Subutai » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:37 pm

This never bothered me on my mundane WM because he doesn't have many uses/day items that he uses regularly, but now that I'm playing a mage, I've noticed that the 50% rest limit is really low. A caster can't really go above 30%, because they need to have a rest in reserve in case something goes wrong and they need to resummon/rebuff or (as is the case on my spellsword), the ASF reduction doesn't work and a spell fails. This puts casters in the rather irritating position of always being one mistake away from needing to rest and not being able to, or being a relative few minutes from getting rest penalties. Not to mention the vaguely irritating RP implications of almost always being exhausted all the time.

I think it might really help to boost the standard rest limit from 50% up to 75%, to give casters and uses/day characters some time that they're not a rest away from being ineffective and being exhausted.

It kind of makes me question the 100% rest in inns/quarters concept in general. While I do understand it from an RP perspective, other than some mundane characters, I don't know that there are many characters that can safely take advantage of resting above 50%.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Dedman1234 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:07 pm

The rest limit can be a bit annoying, that is until you learn to manage your soberiety. Alcohol can be of great use when playing a mage, since getting your soberiety to 0% before resting can greatly reduce the real amount of rest you gain to a few %. You also quickly regain soberiety when resting, wich is an another big bonus. After that, it gets back rather quickly to 100% on every hourly tick.

The only time I have ever been stopped on my mage (after he bacame an alcoholic) was when I was hellbent on killing a few creatures, that weren't even meant to be killed and it was due to my own stupidity in not realizing they were a part of a puzzle.

Increasing the limit to 75% would make a very small difference, all things considered. It would grant your character 1-2 additional rests and not even on a permament basis. Once you do reach ~70-80% and use up those additional rests, then it will take a LONG time before you get low enough to make use of them again. Instead of hovering on 30-50, you would end up on 50-70 most of the time.

As for the use of alcohol... While I do find the fact, that Arelith is filled to the brim with drunked mages, to be hilarious, I do realize it might not be to everyones liking. I'd love to see some alternative way to manage your rest, since it is pretty much necessary if you want to adventure often. There are probably people who want to play a "dignified sun elf wizard" or something along those lines and being forced to have said elf chug several bottles of spirits like a CON-based dwarf on a bad day, might be a bit... immersion-breaking.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Kreindis » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:26 pm

Dedman1234 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:07 pm
As for the use of alcohol... While I do find the fact, that Arelith is filled to the brim with drunked mages, to be hilarious, I do realize it might not be to everyones liking. I'd love to see some alternative way to manage your rest, since it is pretty much necessary if you want to adventure often. There are probably people who want to play a "dignified sun elf wizard" or something along those lines and being forced to have said elf chug several bottles of spirits like a CON-based dwarf on a bad day, might be a bit... immersion-breaking.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Skald Haldi » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:08 pm

Strong agreement here.

So... WYSIWYG right? including RP based on the mechanics of the setting? So in this world, casters never sleep unless they have to. Unnecessary sleep is dangerous! It's much better to walk around droopy and take STR and CON penalties. Also, alcohol is both divine and magical and helps casters regain their magic. Facts of life - even the peasants know how it is and bars like the Nomad are making great profits. Not to mention the coffee trade...

I'm guessing this is not what the DMs / designers intended when they introduced this mechanic. Most settings I know, casters always want to be fully rested and avoid mind-altering substances because it interferes with their spells.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Xarge VI » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Introduce Terran Brandy. An expensive drink sold in low quantities by shady merchants.

Drinking it could allow restoration of arcane spell slots.

But with the downside for goodly arcanists that the drink is made by distilling pixies.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by xanrael » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:57 pm

Past early levels it's never been an issue for me with boozeamancy/coffeelock being a thing.

My only suggested change using the existing system would be for fresh characters to start at 0% rest. First level random spells prepared without a "resting buffer" to prepare spells is annoying and class balance at level 1-3 shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Subutai » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:19 pm

Skald Haldi wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:08 pm
Strong agreement here.

So... WYSIWYG right? including RP based on the mechanics of the setting? So in this world, casters never sleep unless they have to. Unnecessary sleep is dangerous! It's much better to walk around droopy and take STR and CON penalties. Also, alcohol is both divine and magical and helps casters regain their magic. Facts of life - even the peasants know how it is and bars like the Nomad are making great profits. Not to mention the coffee trade...

I'm guessing this is not what the DMs / designers intended when they introduced this mechanic. Most settings I know, casters always want to be fully rested and avoid mind-altering substances because it interferes with their spells.
This is my issue, mainly. I've almost never seen anyone RP drinking a bunch of booze to be able to rest and replenish their spells, and it's no wonder. How many character concepts involve their mage being a raging alcoholic? Not many, I wager. And while it might be fun to see an alcoholic mage once in a while, forcing the issue as "either be an alcoholic, or always be exhausted" isn't a very fun choice. So most people just choose to ignore the huge amounts of alcohol their mages go through.

As a matter of fact, instead of limiting rest to 50% outside of a few inn rooms and a couple of quarters, why not allow 100% rest anywhere, and then something like 125% rest + 100% food + 100% drink for sleeping in an inn/quarters? That would give more space between "can't rest" and "exhausted", while also benefiting people who sleep in the proper areas.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Xerah » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 pm

I've always found this interesting. I have played two pure mages to epic levels and I have never had this alcohol issue. Sometimes, yes, it comes up, but it's like a once a week thing. Then again, I'm not a hardcore grinder on these characters so that probably has something to do with it.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by LichBait » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:43 pm

I rarely let my cleric get up past 25% rest. I don't grind too much, but I do have her cast a full suite of wards due to the nature of her setting and paranoia. It's a delicate balance that can really be thrown awry. I'm not the biggest fan of the rest mechanics myself, though I can see the necessity for limited resting in some instances. For full discourse, if I'm in a long RP session, I just pack negative energy wards and often go as low at -60% rest.

It is manageable through alcoholism, but I do agree that every caster having to be an alcoholic is unfortunate. Overall I suppose I wouldn't mind resting going up to 75%. It would forestall that dreaded exhausted animation every rest tic just a bit longer.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Subutai » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:22 pm

Xerah wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 pm
I've always found this interesting. I have played two pure mages to epic levels and I have never had this alcohol issue. Sometimes, yes, it comes up, but it's like a once a week thing. Then again, I'm not a hardcore grinder on these characters so that probably has something to do with it.
I generally avoid it while grinding, but that's only by walking a very careful line of running on very low rest %. Often times, if I head out to do a writ or some grinding at 15% rest and no spell cast, it gives me two chances for things to go wrong. If I get the SS spell failure bug and my spell fails, or for some other reason (like a Dispel early on, or something), I can rest again and try once more. If something else goes wrong that time, though, I just have one more rest before I'm well above 50%. If I don't see the "You're exhausted" warning message for a while before resting, it means my spellsword is dangerously well rested, which doesn't seem right at all.

It seems like it's forcing players to choose between alcoholism, and sleep deprivation, neither of which seems to really mesh with the traditional mage concepts.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Mattamue » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:12 pm

I drink when my charter does. Seems to help.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:32 am

Subutai wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:22 pm
If I don't see the "You're exhausted" warning message for a while before resting, it means my spellsword is dangerously well rested, which doesn't seem right at all.
lol Too true.

I think most of us live just learn to live with it it because at latter levels we have enough spells, wands, potions, scrolls, that we can mitigate. But all my serious Arcanists generally stock booze and coffee just to manage rest.

Where you will live this pain all over again, however, is when you are trying to lvl your 3rd lvl wizard whose buffs evaporate by the second quadrant of the Cordor Sewers writ.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Flashish » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:29 am

I mostly just dislike having to carry around a ton of booze even if it doesn't weight much. Low str characters are constantly having to balance needs vs wants as far as what to pack. The rest limit could be bumped up a bit though. It mostly comes into play on long dungeons where you are constantly expending spells.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Artenides » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:47 am

90% of my characters on this server were wizards so I feel the pain. I often had to foresee a longer RP session and rest in advance, so I wouldn't be totally exhausted by the end of it. When it comes to grinding [that I used to do fairly often but not anymore] it makes sense to start the process when around 10% rest.

I don't think this is a huge problem though [especially with the booze/coffee options] but I am curious what others think about the mechanic.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by RedGiant » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:46 pm

I guess my feedback is, if we have a 100% meter as in all other necessity mechanics, why are we playing with only half of it?

We do not say with eating, you are half-full, so you cannot eat anymore.

Nor with drink and drinking.

Nor with piety and praying.

The rest band seems to inordinately impact spells casters. It seems to me it would be abit more natural if it were treated like any of these other mechanics. As a consequence, I think we would also see less substance-fiending spells casters; which are a uniquely Arelithian meme. I don't see (m)any drawbacks to this.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Skibbles » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:35 pm

Life would be incrementally better if the rest meter was either gone or modified appropriately for quality of life.

Managing rest constantly for years on end has been nothing but tedious and immersion breaking, but I understand there is probably a balance element involved in there somewhere making it unlikely it can simply be removed.

For crashes, server transfers, and server restarts, the epic spells don't come back and so too for the bonus GSF spells and characters need to rest just to get those back (mostly looking at EMA here).
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Rockstar1984 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:47 pm

If there were more areas where you could rest past 50%, that would be great. I understand the logic behind not resting up to 100% and think it's an interesting mechanic, but a lot of quarters need to be updated so that you can rest fully in them, and some of the inns also don't allow that yet. So if every quarter and inn were updated so you could rest past 50% that would be great. And to expand upon this, they should make it a thing where if you are in the wilderness but are resting near a tent fixture or bedroll, you can rest beyond 50%.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Diilicious » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:57 pm

ive never roleplayed the rediculous consumption of alcohol needed to rest, the whole thing is a hastle its done because you basically need to unless you are going to a really long dungeon.
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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by WJLIII3 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:15 pm

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:47 pm
And to expand upon this, they should make it a thing where if you are in the wilderness but are resting near a tent fixture or bedroll, you can rest beyond 50%.
This would be great, if this were implemented I'd actually have a reason to ever make or use a bedroll.

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Re: Rest Limit - Is 50% too low?

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:50 pm

As someone who plays mostly mages I have to say that the 50% thing can be a problem and a bit of a hindrance, but only a little bit.
It's absolutely manageable and not too difficult to keep it under control, only very rarely does it become a problem.

That being said it does restrict a few things, mostly "training RP" in an arena or anywhere really. Same for tournaments and things like that.

Basically in the very rare occasions it does become an issue it's a really bothersome one.

I made a suggestion many moons ago for there to be a "device" to be added to certain locations; The Tower, Thoraminds, Arenas, Thungsten Turret, and other "magical" styled locations. At this device you could spend a few moments, maybe five rounds, and completely refresh your spellbook. Can't be used while in combat and there absolutely wouldn't be any in any wilderness or "adventure" areas.

What this would do is give mages the opportunity to be a bit more loose with their magic in RP situations while not having it impact adventure where they should prepare appropriately. Tournaments and arena training sessions wouldn't have that one mage that dies every server tick because they drank too much (looking at you Elwood Thron!!) and mages could actually RP "preparing their spellbook" before adventures instead of just chugging 20 whiskeys and taking a quick nap.

Pen and Paper rules are great in pen and paper. Most of them are even great in NWN, but there needs to be some exceptions to a certain extent and spell slots (honestly i've never been a fan of that system but mages are my thing!) in a game that is in real time simply aren't efficient, especially when the rest to refresh function on Arelith is capped by a percentage. Staying as true to P&P is fine, but also realising that this is a real time game is necessary, and I think adding something simple like a Table you can prepare your spellbook at in a few moments, and only in a few select areas, is an absolutely fine addition :D

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