RPB Requirements for rewards

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Mr_Rieper
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Mr_Rieper » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:45 pm

We're already starting people off at 10 RPR instead of 0. You cannot start people off with full rewards and punish them into fitting in, the outrage would set the forums ablaze. And yes, it is important that people fit in. I'm going to assume that part of being 20 RPR is that you are playing a character that is actually part of the Forgotten Realms universe, and not Ravenloft or Star Wars or any homebrew setting. As Senke said, this server does not cater to everybody. It caters to Forgotten Realms roleplayers. Expecting the DMs to immediately correct/punish every newbie that joins into creating a proper character would be a tough thing to watch.

And the reason I used that example is because it is a common thing for new people to join, not understand that the setting is 3.5 edition Forgotten Realms, and create a character from a vague or homebrew setting. It happens a lot. And it's not always immediately obvious, nor should people be punished for it or told to delete their character, because there's room for development there.

I understand that it's in people's nature not to ask for 20 RPR because they want to avoid seeming presumptuous and want to be deserving of it first. That's admirable. But it does not justify wanting to start everybody off at "full" RPR and punishing people for not fitting in. You don't really need to think about which is worse, having players that do not know if they are worth 20 RPR or having players that started with it and believe that making mistakes could cause them to get downgraded.

The DMs have already stated what their expectations for 20 RPR are. If players in weird timezones believe they meet those criteria, they need to actually ask in this case. The DMs are not mind readers, they are ordinary players who have been charged with the responsibility of keeping the server running smoothly. The more you inform them, the better.
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The GrumpyCat
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:11 pm

To be fair I'll agree, if there's one weakness of this new ruling is that it is a bit harsh on thos with odd/less playtime and in areas less well traveled by DMs. I think the points here are valid. Though perhaps less valid than say, gating off much content to 30's.

One way to fix this is however to simply let us know, and we can look at raising your rpr from 10 to 20.
This too shall pass.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Archnon » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm glad other people are echoing my concerns here. I too am one of those players that palys at weird times. I have 10 rpr despite being very involved in Brog/grotto, holding a leadership position in a settlement and using my private quarter for a public library space (and yes this was going before bookshelves. We have copies of the server books in book bags and thanks to the dwarves for filling it up with me)

My 10 rpr left me wondering, 1.) Do DMs never see me or 2.) Am I Rping my characters wrong by not being good/evil/chaotic/lawful/neutral enough. I have never pmed the dm channel and got a response so I wrote it off as no DMs around and decided I didn't care. (I have gotten responses on the forum)

Now it suddenly matters and I am asking the same questions. Maybe one way around this is to review all 10 rpr players after three months of playtime to keep people from slipping through the cracks or coach if necessary.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Cuchilla » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:22 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:11 pm
To be fair I'll agree, if there's one weakness of this new ruling is that it is a bit harsh on thos with odd/less playtime and in areas less well traveled by DMs. I think the points here are valid. Though perhaps less valid than say, gating off much content to 30's.

One way to fix this is however to simply let us know, and we can look at raising your rpr from 10 to 20.
Speaking of which ... isn't it so that 40'ers got a command to recommend players for a jump to 20? If the system still works, did it have any effects?

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Astral » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:38 pm

As grumpy cat said, the flaw (probably the only one in my opinion, after reading the comments above) in the ruling is the difficulty for players in those really weird time zones. For myself I can say as EU time-zone player that DMs are pretty much around from the afternoon and forward into the evening most of the time. It has never been too difficult for me to get in touch with a DM in game but I mostly default to sending PMs on the forums when I need to ask anything and they reply 100% of the time after a day or two. I dont think its that hard to raise from 10 to 20. On top of the DM team, 40 rpr players can still recommend an RPR bump for other players and if those other players have 10 then the DM team will almost always listen to the 40 rpr player's recommendation with very little to no questions asked as far as I've heard.

If you have 10 rpr and you feel like you deserve 20 it is no shame to send a PM to Active DMs and recommend yourself. Its might be awkward to brag about your own accomplishments on one hand but if you're one of the very VERY few who fell between the chairs because of weird time zone play times and/or other reasons then you gotta do it and there's no shame in that. Its a very natural and accepted thing to do in the situation. I'd like to believe the DMs 'catch' everyone within a month or two so be prepared to get a 'no' as an answer because the odds are you've been watched and you, for whatever odd reason as it may be, dont qualify.
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Cuchilla wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:22 pm
DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:11 pm
To be fair I'll agree, if there's one weakness of this new ruling is that it is a bit harsh on thos with odd/less playtime and in areas less well traveled by DMs. I think the points here are valid. Though perhaps less valid than say, gating off much content to 30's.

One way to fix this is however to simply let us know, and we can look at raising your rpr from 10 to 20.
Speaking of which ... isn't it so that 40'ers got a command to recommend players for a jump to 20? If the system still works, did it have any effects?
Yes, this still works.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:13 pm

Cerk Evermoore wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:40 pm
I know plenty of roleplayers who are definitely worthy of 20 RPR by definition but after like a year of playing they are still stuck there. Isn't this just making a big chore for the DM team when tons of players start submitting tickets about having 10 RPR despite being perfectly fine roleplayers?

Have you been sending the DM team recommendations via forum private message, regarding these people? I imagine that would go some way to solving their problem.


__________

On a more general note, and now not responding to Cerk, but the thread as a whole... I do find this update to be a little bit sorta... Unnecessary. I'm not really sure what problem it is responding to or trying to solve - And seems to me to be sending a slightly odd message.

I agree that certain codes of behaviour and practices need to be encouraged, but this should be done through (like virtually every other "problem" with player behaviour in recent times where a mechanical "solution" has been proposed or implemented) a program of education with a focus on what this place is about, and how to become a part of the way things work here, with active promotion of good roleplay practices - Rather than "passively punitive" measures.

I find the whole situation slightly weird... Skaljard's existence has served to segregate newer players from the experienced playerbase - And yet rather than rectify that or encourage experienced and approved veteran players to take on a mentoring role, or the staff taking a pro-active role in creating methods for people to learn "good practice" on arelith, we're instead taking vaguely punitive measures towards those who have not yet learned.

While I don't think this particular decision is a particularly harmful one, or one that will really make much of a difference to any actual situations in game, it seems to be a misstep in solving whatever problems it seeks to solve, and better solutions that have a positive (instead of neutral) impact on the server and community's health can be found.
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Sea Shanties » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:27 pm

FWIW when I said the word "rabble" above I was being facetious-- I don't think 10 RPR makes you "rabble" or undesirable and I hope no one else does. I play weird hours and oddball characters who don't drift towards big groups and it took me a really long time to get a 20 as well.

It's not terribly difficult to get a 20 but not as easy as it's claimed here either. Not for everyone. The nature of the system is for DMs to reward extroverted and showy RP performance in big groups and populated areas. If you make an effort to be a presence in these situations I think you can get noticed and bumped up quickly. Subtlety or closer examination of a player who's quieter, who prefers outlier settlements and groups or who has nonstandard goals requires getting and holding a DMs attention. These aren't hard rules of course and I am sure many DMs make an effort to look at everyone but this is just human nature. If your RP requires an explanation of why your performance is subdued but solid because you are making efforts towards long term goals or taking a risk with a nonstandard concept, this is a very difficult thing to get across to a DM who only spends a couple of minutes with dozens of players an hour.

But the thing is.. I don't care about any of this myself and that's not when I'm in this thread. My objection to the ruling isn't the unfairness of the RPR system, it's that creating characters for the express purpose of rolling a 5% is something so entrenched in Arelith now people don't even question whether it's a problem. Cutting off the 10 RPR people (who aren't "rabble" in my mind, sorry for any impression that I feel that way at least) is a small fix to a much greater problem.
Last edited by Sea Shanties on Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:36 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:27 pm
It's not terribly difficult to get a 20 but not as easy as it's claimed here either. Not for everyone. The nature of the system is for DMs to reward extroverted and showy RP performance in big groups and populated areas. If you make an effort to be a presence in these situations I think you can get noticed and bumped up quickly. Subtlety or closer examination of a player who's quieter, who prefers outlier settlements and groups or who has nonstandard goals requires getting and holding a DMs attention. These aren't hard rules of course and I am sure many DMs make an effort to look at everyone but this is just human nature. If your RP requires an explanation of why your performance is subdued but solid because you are making efforts towards long term goals or taking a risk with a nonstandard concept, this is a very difficult thing to get across to a DM who's only spending a couple of minutes with a dozens of players an hour.
This is an excellent and very necessary thing to say.
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:13 am

Twily wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:06 pm
I just wanted to say I think this is a rather great change.
I can understand many of the concerns, but I think there's fair counters to most of them.

Snipped segment: See DM Senke's above reply for more or less the same thing straight from a DM. (I got ninja posted)

It's the excessive things that are really bad and liable to get you in RPR trouble.
Things such as using // while in a party to coordinate the encounter, or run grinding while repeatedly using especially 'gamey' terms such as 'lets grind this spot for a bit', referring to every boss as 'the/a boss', or things like sticking an item in a chest and bashing it to 'test if it destroys the loot' or running past a party in the area to steal the dungeon instead of stopping and talking to the people who are there. (all of these are things I've seen happen).

As DM Senke says above, warnings are what they usually do first anyways.


And for the people who do these things excessively and do lose their RPR, I think they deserve to be unable to roll their characters until they start performing at a higher standard.
If people's sole goal is to think of themselves, and not any other players nor the story of the server, why should they be able to be rewarded for it? I don't think they should be- which is why I like this change.


And if you do feel your RPR was wrongly removed; send a request to have the incident reviewed to the Head DM.
I sent a request to review a DM action I thought highly questionable in the past, and I can say the reply I got was very professional and well looked into.
I'm in full agreement with Twily's post. I also wholeheartedly welcome this change and believe it will foster and encourage people to roleplay more.
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:29 am

The entire mechanic of encouraging character disposal and turn-over to get your special snowflake PC is so critically flawed and contrary to the spirit of the idea that this change is like sticking a pinky finger into an undersea oil leak.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:48 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:29 am
The entire mechanic of encouraging character disposal and turn-over to get your special snowflake PC is so critically flawed and contrary to the spirit of the idea that this change is like sticking a pinky finger into an undersea oil leak.
Could you elaborate on why you feel the concept is critically flawed?

My personal opinion is that encouraging character turnover is good for the health of the server, and assists in reducing the tendency of big, long-term characters to dominate their particular flavour of RP. It encourages people to offer conclusions to their narratives. Offering a chance at a unique PC to nudge people toward that behaviour seems like a reasonable incentive to me, and imposes less on the DMs than an application system (which entails both a need for DM attention and the inevitable bias accusations). It's not perfect, but I feel it's a very long way indeed from critically flawed.
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:00 am

There is nothing in the mechanic that actually promotes learning to manage a story or a wider narrative, which is the purpose that a special character is supposed to serve. Tieflings and vampires and crap should be handled by seasoned players, preferably with some DM experience, and used to facilitate a wider story.

Leveling to 16 and typing delete twice does nothing to teach those skills, and just creates faceless, mute, and unmemorable PCs that exist only to earn gold and XP and then be deleted. It makes the world feel more like a lifeless MMO than a breathing world with stories to explore. When I see a completely new player list every night with only one or two names I recognize, I barely feel compelled to log in. There's no incentive to build IC relationships because I feel like 80% of the PCs I meet have the permanence of California snow. I might just have very bad luck, but the award system hardly helps the situation.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:23 am

Fair points; and I'm 100% on board with you as far as the role of special characters as tools to advance the narrative goes. They're not things that necessarily wriggle very well into the typical PC experience, and it takes some exceptional storytelling chops to make that work in a compelling way.

I was looking at it as an answer to the question of 'What can we offer to prevent character stagnation?,' rather than from that perspective. Appreciate the explanation!
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by NauVaseline » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:16 pm

Xerah wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:47 pm
That's strange. If you want to limit yourself because of that, I suppose that's on you.

Or just recommend them anyway without knowing.
It's really not that strange, or self-limiting. This player see's a boundary to respect, and indeed not everyone is comfy talking about their rpr.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Xerah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:33 pm

NauVaseline wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:16 pm
Xerah wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:47 pm
That's strange. If you want to limit yourself because of that, I suppose that's on you.

Or just recommend them anyway without knowing.
It's really not that strange, or self-limiting. This player see's a boundary to respect, and indeed not everyone is comfy talking about their rpr.
Or just recommend them anyway. Maybe you missed me explicitly saying that.
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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:44 pm

If people overgrinding character after character is the problem, why are not the people addressed? As some have mentioned there are many players that have focused much more on rp than grinding and are still RPB 10. And as someone else mentioned there are those competitive in both RP and grinding. I had a friend who would quickly become a DM on servers, was known to be a roleplayer, while at the same time being that guy that could reach max level (lvl 20) in a couple months on a server where you got 1 exp for the starting monsters appropiate for your second level character. (This was like a decade ago).

The RPB 20 requirement will not stop grinding. You know what I am afraid will happen though?The standard of RPB 20 being raised as it turns into a content gate.

*edit*

And my problem with that is similar to my problems with RPB 30 gated content. A constant number telling me I am not capable of RPing "X" thing when I know I am even if my RP of the regular has never been "top tier while observed".

Oh and it was once upon a time taboo to talk about one's RPR.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by WJLIII3 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:27 am

I was going to make a comment about this, and decided against it, but, well...
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:06 pm
There isn't a single person in this thread, in favour or against the change, who would refer to a player in your situation as "rabble".
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:28 pm
To not get 20 RPB by the time you hit level 16 means that you have been doing nothing but writs, have barely introduced or spent any time interacting with people, or by some miracle NONE of the 20 DMs on the server have noticed you, or anybody has recommended you. Or your RP style is disruptive and not conducive to the server, and people are too polite to inform you of this. It only takes ONE dungeon master to decide that you're worthy of 20 RPB. As I said, it happens by complete accident. You'll be talking and get bumped up at random.
These are like ten posts apart. YOU are the person who said the things that make people feel this way. I had exactly the same feeling reading your post, I got to level 22 before gaining RPR 20, and I RP'd excellently according to the people I RP'd with and the DMs who ultimately reviewed my case, and I was quite insulted by YOUR comment that my situation qualified me to be judged on the value of my RP. This is EXACTLY the flaw in this system, I wish you hadn't demonstrated it so clearly.

For the record, I play roughly 5-11 EST, literally the most popular timeslot. I just played my first character in the Underdark. Within an RL hour of walking around the surface canoodling with half-elves in back alleys, I was raised.

DM GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:11 pm
To be fair I'll agree, if there's one weakness of this new ruling is that it is a bit harsh on thos with odd/less playtime and in areas less well traveled by DMs. I think the points here are valid. Though perhaps less valid than say, gating off much content to 30's.

One way to fix this is however to simply let us know, and we can look at raising your rpr from 10 to 20.
I'd have to reply to this with, again, Mr. Rieper's quote...
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:28 pm
To not get 20 RPB by the time you hit level 16 means that you have been doing nothing but writs, have barely introduced or spent any time interacting with people, or by some miracle NONE of the 20 DMs on the server have noticed you, or anybody has recommended you. Or your RP style is disruptive and not conducive to the server, and people are too polite to inform you of this. It only takes ONE dungeon master to decide that you're worthy of 20 RPB. As I said, it happens by complete accident. You'll be talking and get bumped up at random.
This is what the wiki says, this is what other, older, more influential players say. If you don't have it, you don't deserve it. Why would someone ask for something they already have been told they don't deserve? Now the reward system has been changed, everyone has been assured an RPB 20 is no big deal, you'll get it no problem. So if someone already doesn't have it, they will feel they must be being passed over, because they have been told very clearly that they ARE being watched and they WOULD have it if they deserved it.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by Baseili » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:24 pm

DM Senke wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:08 am
Part of the reasoning for this change was to lessen the amount of 5% chances with respect to players who put mechanics first and roleplay as an afterthought in order to get a Major reward. This change is not meant as punitive, but rather in keeping with our roots as a RP-first server.
Perhaps this occurs as the server typically rewards mechanic optimisation more so than simply being a character, as far as I'm aware the only rewards for a social character are the RPB system and the bartender system. The RPB being an oddity as it doubles your standard XP and your adventure pool gain with the ratio of 1:2, meaning it rewards better in adventure XP which is gained only be combat (including -adventure), exploration, first time crafts and writs.

On the flipside mechanical optimisation rewards you with effectiveness in PvE content meaning greater amounts of items and levels plus all those things increase (skills, abilities, feats, gold, XP, items etc), effectiveness in PvP battles, quicker access to level gated systems and feats (class bonuses, extra druid feat/spell, ranger totem is not taken at 2nd level), the ability to explore higher level areas/become a settlement citizen sooner/gain access to endgame materials for crafting and reach the threshold for the epic sacrifice sooner.

Now the two are not opposed to each other and when combined produce the best sort of outcome but putting mechanics first and roleplay as an afterthought is what Areltih suggests, you need only look to at what Skaljard was like until just recently to see it in action. Even in the community we have a section where people refuse to give advice on a non-optimal build for fear of being removed as someone unknowledgeable in the subject, this does not say "roleplay is first" in any language.

I'll close by saying that I thoroughly enjoy Arelith and everything it has to offer, it possesses a rare quality that strikes the fine line between fun RP and hardcore RP on top of an engaging world, yet this change seems more of a case of treating the symptoms rather than the patient.

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Re: RPB Requirements for rewards

Post by DM Senke » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:05 pm

Folks. The change happened. It will be reviewed in time to see what effect its having. Let's move on.

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