Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

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Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Sockss » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:48 pm

Can we get more feedback on enchanting Godsaves.

As in, something to say that it's available and feedback on the godsave failing, but available?

I've failed 35 times without popping a save over 3 servers today and it's been very inconsistent, this isn't the first time either.

It'd be nice to know it's working properly!
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by the grim yeeter » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:13 pm

I've had numerous suspiciously long failing streaks on my tier 3 dweomercrafter as well.

This seems to be another one of those things that are kept intentionally vague and ambiguous (see the epic sacrifice mechanic discussed in this thread, where the majority of players responding showed discontent with non-transparency: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=23416) but should in fact be much more, if not entirely, transparent to the playerbase. All these years, I still haven't seen a single good reason as to why things like these, which involve a lot of investment (gold and xp and, in case of the rolling system, emotional attachment to the character as well), are kept equivocal. It simply isn't fun. And it doesn't add to the immersion either. And no, keeping a system opaque does not mean it will be "gamed less". It will be gamed either way. It's how players work. In reality, all the non-transparency does, is cause unnecessary loss, irritation and dissatisfaction among players.

Currently, the following things are kept unclear:
- At what % piety can a godsave occur?
- Does a higher % piety mean an increased chance of the godsave happening?
- Does a godsave always trigger?
- If a godsave does not always trigger, what's the % chance of it triggering?
- Is the % chance of a godsave triggering affected by the initial % chance of success of the enchantment?
- What's the cooldown of the godsave?
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm

This comes up every now and then and is always confirmed that the system isn't bugged, it's simply RNG based and the way RNG works it's entirely possible to get even more than 35 fails in a row.
- At what % piety can a godsave occur?
- Does a higher % piety mean an increased chance of the godsave happening?
- Does a godsave always trigger?
- If a godsave does not always trigger, what's the % chance of it triggering?
- Is the % chance of a godsave triggering affected by the initial % chance of success of the enchantment?
- What's the cooldown of the godsave?
Some of these have been answered, and some haven't (that i'm aware of)

- No idea if there is a cut off where a godsave doesn't occur. For the sake of enchanting always just have as much as you can, personally i've had a death godsave on less than 30% piety, so it really could be anything. Best advice is just to prepare as best you can.
- There is plenty reason to believe as much, yes. It's been confirmed that 100% for a crafting godsave will 100% guarantee a save so it stands to reason there is a scaling chance of success with other types of saves, though that's just my own guess.
- If it can and is meant to and the RNG succeeds then yes it should, like I said this topic comes up every few months and after investigation by the team there's never any bugs or issues found, it's entirely just bad luck on personal experiences, it happens.
- See the two above this.
- To a small extent, it has been confirmed that enchantments at a certain % (and I think cost) won't trigger a godsave even if it's possible, I can't remember the exact numbers so hopefully Xerah will jump in here to tell us, but it was made public knowledge in one of the updates. This was to save peoples godsaves from being expended on cheap and almost meaningless enchantments like the very first Skill enchant on a blank item that costs less than a 100 gold and already has a 95% success chance. Wasting a save on these just because you "rolled a 1" was infuriating and the change is most welcome.
- It has been confirmed before, but again I can't remember the exact number. If i'm not mistaken though and memory serves then it's 1 IG day (around 2.5 hours).

Just to note i've once before gone upwards of 50+ times without a save, and then on other days (so long as I wait for the CD) I get a save every time on a full set of gear. RNG is entirely luck based, there are no diminishing returns, it is possible to not be lucky and to get a LOT of fails in a row.

Just to give an example of how much of a b***h RNG can be here's a video of a FF7 speed runner getting the worst possible luck, percentage chances, probability based on the base 48% chance of application scaled with the amount of attempts, are shown just so you can understand how unlucky things can be sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNw74bzWp10

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Sockss » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:20 pm

Thank you for the (unneeded) lesson on basic statistics (and touching on bias), but I think you have missed the point.

AFAIK the code hasn't been reviewed by anyone (other than the Xerah) and given the propensity and ease of mistakes with any code it would be nice to have it confirmed.

Feedback would be comforting in assuring people that it was working and, potentially, identifying any bugs that may be present, some that may only occur environmentally with the server being under increased load, for example.

Without feedback the system is worse than a black box, because you don't know if it's working as intended or not.
Last edited by Sockss on Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by NauVaseline » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:21 pm

It's probably been changed since then but at one point Peppermint said on Discord that at 100% piety there's a 45% chance of triggering a godsave.

I suspect it's been lowered a lot since then.

EDIT: I've found that if you find yourself on a losing streak, it's best to wait until the server's reset and have another go at it.

I've also never triggered a godsave within the first IG day of logging in to a server, in almost two years. My last two mains have been FT enchanters. Who knows if that means anything.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by the grim yeeter » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
This comes up every now and then and is always confirmed that the system isn't bugged, it's simply RNG based and the way RNG works it's entirely possible to get even more than 35 fails in a row.
This depends entirely on what that RNG is. If there's a, for example, 3% chance of a godsave triggering, then yes, sure, 35 fails in a row makes perfect sense. If there's a 50% chance of it triggering, this becomes way, way, way less likely. And in this case, you don't know what the RNG is. Nobody knows what it is, because it's undocumented and not shared with the playerbase. That is the issue here.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
- No idea if there is a cut off where a godsave doesn't occur. For the sake of enchanting always just have as much as you can, personally i've had a death godsave on less than 30% piety, so it really could be anything. Best advice is just to prepare as best you can.
You don't have to tell us this. It's not like players haven't realized that keeping piety at 100% before enchanting with your godsave up is the safest bet. That wasn't what I asked, either. The issue is it being unknown.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
- There is plenty reason to believe as much, yes. It's been confirmed that 100% for a crafting godsave will 100% guarantee a save so it stands to reason there is a scaling chance of success with other types of saves, though that's just my own guess.
Wrong assumption. I've, in fact, heard of it only triggering 50% of the time. Again: nobody is asking you to do the guessing that all of us already have done.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
- If it can and is meant to and the RNG succeeds then yes it should, like I said this topic comes up every few months and after investigation by the team there's never any bugs or issues found, it's entirely just bad luck on personal experiences, it happens.
Yes, I read the forums and yes, I know it has been said that there are no bugs or incorrectly written code (although they've been mistaken on that in the past, as well. Everyone makes mistakes, after all), but again, that wasn't the issue here, nor what OP asked. The request was feedback and transparency, whatever the numbers and percentages are.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
- To a small extent, it has been confirmed that enchantments at a certain % (and I think cost) won't trigger a godsave even if it's possible, I can't remember the exact numbers so hopefully Xerah will jump in here to tell us, but it was made public knowledge in one of the updates. This was to save peoples godsaves from being expended on cheap and almost meaningless enchantments like the very first Skill enchant on a blank item that costs less than a 100 gold and already has a 95% success chance. Wasting a save on these just because you "rolled a 1" was infuriating and the change is most welcome.
Yes. Xerah says there is a threshold, but in the past month or two, there's been people getting godsaves at an initial enchanting success chance of 95%. Seems like that threshold isn't áctually there, then.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
- It has been confirmed before, but again I can't remember the exact number. If i'm not mistaken though and memory serves then it's 1 IG day (around 2.5 hours).
It would be nice if this could be confirmed by someone who has access to the code, indeed.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 pm
Just to note i've once before gone upwards of 50+ times without a save, and then on other days (so long as I wait for the CD) I get a save every time on a full set of gear. RNG is entirely luck based, there are no diminishing returns, it is possible to not be lucky and to get a LOT of fails in a row.
Yes. Most of us know what RNG is and how probability works. But thanks for trying to explain, albeit poorly.

And yes, it’s possible that I fail 50 coin tosses in a row. In fact, there’s an 8.88x10^-14 percent chance of me doing so. For reference, that is a 1 in 1125000000000000 chance. But I think the chance that someone messed up the code is slightly higher than that.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
This depends entirely on what that RNG is. If there's a, for example, 3% chance of a godsave triggering, then yes, sure, 35 fails in a row makes perfect sense. If there's a 50% chance of it triggering, this becomes way, way, way less likely. And in this case, you don't know what the RNG is. Nobody knows what it is, because it's undocumented and not shared with the playerbase. That is the issue here.
That's just a matter of probability, you're right that the chance of it failing so many times in a row at 50% compared to 3% is much lower, but the fact is it can still happen. Every fail doesn't mean the next one is more likely to succeed, they all have the same chance of succeeding or failing individually. So yes, the amount of times someone suffers 35 failures in a row changes based on what the RNG is, what doesn't change is that no matter what that RNG is it can still happen.
So like I said "it's entirely possible to get even more than 35 fails in a row." whether the RNG is 3% or 50%
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
You don't have to tell us this. It's not like players haven't realized that keeping piety at 100% before enchanting with your godsave up is the safest bet. That wasn't what I asked, either. The issue is it being unknown.
I know my response didn't give an answer, I was just responding to each question with what information I had, and that was that to my knowledge it's never been made clear if "a higher % piety mean an increased chance of the godsave happening?" was the case or not. Keep in mind I did preface the whole response with "Some of these have been answered, and some haven't (that i'm aware of)", anything that's not a definitive answer is just my own personal opinion or guess, not meant to be a definitive answer. It may be useless to you but you're not the only person that will read this.
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Wrong assumption. I've, in fact, heard of it only triggering 50% of the time. Again: nobody is asking you to do the guessing that all of us already have done.
Not an assumption, it's been confirmed that crafting saves are 100% successful with 100% piety. That was confirmed by one of the Devs not too long ago. (unless it's been changed very recently)
Again, i'm only giving my input on it, if it's not a definitive answer then it's not meant to be, even though my own opinions and guesses may be of no use to you they may be useful to someone else.
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Yes, I read the forums and yes, I know it has been said that there are no bugs or incorrectly written code (although they've been mistaken on that in the past, as well. Everyone makes mistakes, after all), but again, that wasn't the issue here, nor what OP asked. The request was feedback and transparency, whatever the numbers and percentages are.
"- Does a godsave always trigger?" is the specific question I was answering here, nothing to do with transparency and feedback, only confirming that if a godsave is meant to trigger, it will trigger. (which has been confirmed many times in similar posts)
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Yes. Xerah says there is a threshold, but in the past month or two, there's been people getting godsaves at an initial enchanting success chance of 95%. Seems like that threshold isn't áctually there, then.
A new bug then, worth reporting in the bug forum no doubt if anyone hasn't yet. These things do happen after all.
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
It would be nice if this could be confirmed by someone who has access to the code, indeed.
Agreed, if I could even recall where to start looking to fish it out again I would, unfortunately I have no idea where to start. Hopefully someone will see this and answer it for us.
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Yes. Most of us know what RNG is and how probability works. But thanks for trying to explain, albeit poorly.
I don't get why you have to be so snarky, you asked questions and I answered them with the knowledge I had and gave my own personal input where I didn't, there's nothing wrong with that nor any reason why I shouldn't. You may feel the answers are no use to you, good on you for your apparent superiority, but this is a public forum so there's every chance someone may come along and find them useful, that's fine by me. I'd appreciate if the attitude and snark could be left out of it though when I was only trying to be helpful....
Last edited by Orian_666 on Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Orian_666 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:18 pm

NauVaseline wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:21 pm
It's probably been changed since then but at one point Peppermint said on Discord that at 100% piety there's a 45% chance of triggering a godsave.

I suspect it's been lowered a lot since then.

EDIT: I've found that if you find yourself on a losing streak, it's best to wait until the server's reset and have another go at it.

I've also never triggered a godsave within the first IG day of logging in to a server, in almost two years. My last two mains have been FT enchanters. Who knows if that means anything.
That could still be the % chance, I have no idea, the main person that would know now though is Xerah, they're the Dev that did the massive overhaul of the Piety system a good while back. Myself and one other person helped them with it but only with the written and "idea" parts, lol, all the code was them. Lets hope they see this thread and can answer some of the questions and concerns raised.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by the grim yeeter » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:52 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
This depends entirely on what that RNG is. If there's a, for example, 3% chance of a godsave triggering, then yes, sure, 35 fails in a row makes perfect sense. If there's a 50% chance of it triggering, this becomes way, way, way less likely. And in this case, you don't know what the RNG is. Nobody knows what it is, because it's undocumented and not shared with the playerbase. That is the issue here.
That's just a matter of probability, you're right that the chance of it failing so many times in a row at 50% compared to 3% is much lower, but the fact is it can still happen. Every fail doesn't mean the next one is more likely to succeed, they all have the same chance of succeeding or failing individually. So yes, the amount of times someone suffers 35 failures in a row changes based on what the RNG is, what doesn't change is that no matter what that RNG is it can still happen.
So like I said "it's entirely possible to get even more than 35 fails in a row." whether the RNG is 3% or 50%
What are you trying to say here, exactly? You're hardly making any sense.

In response to the "it can still happen" part: yes, theoretically, it can. It can also happen that I'll be hit by lightning tomorrow at exactly 1:00 PM walking naked through the streets eating an unpeeled banana. This chance is extremely low. Have you seen the coin flip example at the end of my previous post? Do you realize how extremely unlikely it is for one to fail (or succeed) a 50% chance 35 times in a row? It's 2.9x10^-9%, so 1 in about 35 billion. If the entire world population did this set of enchanting four-and-a-half times, it'd happen only once, statistically. If you give every person in the world a quarter and tell them to flip it until it comes up heads, there is probably not a single person still flipping after 35 tosses.

Oh, and did you also see how I acknowledged that 35 consecutive failures would be more likely to happen if all of those 35 events occurred at a 3% chance of success?

Just so you understand, 35 failures happening consecutively is considered as one event, and we were talking about the (un)likelihood of this happening, not of one of these 35 events separately. I know how both event independency and the gambler's fallacy work. I'm not entirely sure if you do.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Wrong assumption. I've, in fact, heard of it only triggering 50% of the time. Again: nobody is asking you to do the guessing that all of us already have done.
Not an assumption, it's been confirmed that crafting saves are 100% successful with 100% piety. That was confirmed by one of the Devs not too long ago. (unless it's been changed very recently)
Again, i'm only giving my input on it, if it's not a definitive answer then it's not meant to be, even though my own opinions and guesses may be of no use to you they may be useful to someone else.
The assumption I referred to is you saying that "if it works like that for crafting saves, then it likely also works like that for enchanting saves". This is wrong: they do not work the same.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Yes, I read the forums and yes, I know it has been said that there are no bugs or incorrectly written code (although they've been mistaken on that in the past, as well. Everyone makes mistakes, after all), but again, that wasn't the issue here, nor what OP asked. The request was feedback and transparency, whatever the numbers and percentages are.
"- Does a godsave always trigger?" is the specific question I was answering here, nothing to do with transparency and feedback, only confirming that if a godsave is meant to trigger, it will trigger. (which has been confirmed many times in similar posts)
"If it can and is meant to and the RNG succeeds" is a non-answer.
Orian_666 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm
the grim yeeter wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:26 pm
Yes. Xerah says there is a threshold, but in the past month or two, there's been people getting godsaves at an initial enchanting success chance of 95%. Seems like that threshold isn't áctually there, then.
A new bug then, worth reporting in the bug forum no doubt if anyone hasn't yet. These things do happen after all.
It's not "new" if it hasn't ever been any different. Not saying it hasn't been changed at some point, but I fear that implementation has never been successful.

Now, let's stop polluting this thread with talk about how statistics work. That has never been the reason behind this thread. If you don't have anything constructive or useful to say, don't post, please. Really, don't.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Orian_666 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:08 am

What are you trying to say here, exactly? You're hardly making any sense.

In response to the "it can still happen" part: yes, theoretically, it can. It can also happen that I'll be hit by lightning tomorrow at exactly 1:00 PM walking naked through the streets eating an unpeeled banana. This chance is extremely low. Have you seen the coin flip example at the end of my previous post? Do you realize how extremely unlikely it is for one to fail a 50% chance of success 35 times in a row? Did you also see how I said that it would be more likely to happen if all of those 35 events occurred at a 3% chance of success?

Just so you understand, 35 failures happening consecutively is considered as one event, and we were talking about the (un)likelihood of this happening, not of one of these 35 events separately. I know how event independency works. I'm entirely not sure if you do.
If you can't understand that all i'm saying is that it can happen, regardless of the percentile chance, then there's no point in arguing about it.
The assumption I referred to is you saying that "if it works like that for crafting saves, then it likely also works like that for enchanting saves". This is wrong: they do not work the same.
I never said it works like that for enchanting.
The initial question was "- Does a higher % piety mean an increased chance of the godsave happening?" and I responded with an example of one save that does and then stated "There is plenty reason to believe as much, yes ..... it stands to reason there is a scaling chance of success with other types of saves" I never said it likely works the exact same, only that a higher % may mean an increased chance, as per the question based on the fact that another save works that way.
The confusion here is entirely your own fault for misreading or misunderstanding my answer.
"If it can and is meant to and the RNG succeeds" is a non-answer.
It is an answer, your misunderstanding of it doesn't change that, it very clearly means if all criteria are met then yes it will trigger.
In fact it was a perfectly reasonable answer to the question "Does a godsave always trigger?", barring any bugs of course.
It's not "new" if it hasn't ever been any different. Not saying it hasn't been changed at some point, but I fear that implementation has never been successful.
It has been successful, I have no idea where you got the idea that is hasn't. Could you maybe elaborate on this claim? Did Xerah claim it never worked? Last I saw they made it clear it worked as intended, at least when it was implemented.
And having played an enchanter (pre dweomer too) during it's implementation I can confirm I never had it fail on me.
Of course i'm only one person and like you said there are claims of saves happening on 95% lately, that's why I stated it's likely a new bug.
Now, let's stop polluting this thread with talk about how statistics work. That has never been the reason behind this thread. If you don't have anything constructive or useful to say, don't post, please.
I agree, i'm not a huge fan of being spoken down to entirely unnecessarily when I was only trying to be helpful. If you wanna be that way then so be it, this will be my last response to you because I don't wish to waste my time with someone that's just being a prat for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Best of luck.
Last edited by Orian_666 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by the grim yeeter » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:18 am

Orian_666 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:08 am
If you can't understand that all i'm saying is that it can happen, regardless of the percentile chance, then there's no point in arguing about it.
I edited my last post with a few examples for reference, but will post them here, too:

The chance of one failing a 50% chance 35 times in a row is 2.9x10^-9%, so 1 in about 35 billion. If the entire world population did this set of enchanting four-and-a-half times, it'd happen only once, statistically. If you give every person in the world a quarter and tell them to flip it until it comes up heads, there is probably not a single person still flipping after 35 tosses.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Twily » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:15 am

Is it possible your piety isn't high enough or that you're a mundane dweomercrafter without realizing?

Dweomercreafting god saves are supposed to switch to knowledge and invention deities if you have investment into it and a K&I deity.
Typing -date I believe will show whether your dweomercrafting is magic or mundane, it might be good to check just to confirm it.

If you are a mundane dweomercrafter with K&I deity and aren't getting the god saves, that could also be a bug since it's a newer mechanic.

Also; Lets try to be more civil.
We're all just trying to help here.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Xerah » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:28 am

There's a lot of stuff in here that are things that have been chosen to not be confirmed then I can really give confirmation on.

Almost every one of my character is a tier 3 enchanter (usually K&I one). I really enjoy making "unique" items, so I always create my characters that way. I say this because I consider myself in a constant state of testing it.

Here is what I can personally say (if the Admin staff wishes me to say more, I can):
  • It is not a 100% chance for a god save to happen
  • If Peppermint said 45% for it to happen, let's just accept that the number is right.
  • Your piety % is irrelevant for a god save occurring (new info!) as long as you have enough
  • You cannot god save if it has already happened in the given time period (let's just accept that 1 per day is the right number)
  • As an enchanter who logs on to refresh a soft 5% item to sell, I have had a god save many times on the first IG day.
RNG is not totally random. Sometimes you get a bad random seed and it can generate "random" numbers in a cluster that are within the failure range. When I run through 10 failures in a row, I give up for that time and come back later.

The code is fine. I've looked at it many times. The only change I made is that it doesn't make a save when the % is too high (>90%). I frankly don't believe any of you who are saying "I failed X times in a row" because those are just potentially affected by misremembering or a god save on cooldown.

I can go through this thread and tick off a bunch of "lies" or "accepted facts" which are just wrong. I know this both because I know the code and I force my characters to test this to ensure things are working as they should. And sometimes you're on the bad side of the RNG.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Sockss » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:30 am

Xerah wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:28 am
I frankly don't believe any of you who are saying "I failed X times in a row" because those are just potentially affected by misremembering or a god save on cooldown.

I can go through this thread and tick off a bunch of "lies" or "accepted facts" which are just wrong. I know this both because I know the code and I force my characters to test this to ensure things are working as they should. And sometimes you're on the bad side of the RNG.
From my testing, prior to your changes, it's exactly 12 hours before your God save cd resets, I have been running under the assumption of 50% chance (just because 45 seems odd, but it may be 45 - if you're running 2 checks, I guess. It's small enough not to matter too much.)

Regardless on if the 12 hours has changed, there's 24 hours between my save attempts almost exactly.

Do you test the code is working without feedback? Without that and without doing it live, that's not really testing, as no one is arguing that it never works. If feedback was added any potential issues caused by some other factor could be identified - without that they can't.

(You can't say it's working 100% as intended, only that sometimes you get a save.)

That might not be through the fault of the script itself (in fact it's almost certainly not being very simple), but it may be due to problems resetting/retrieving a variable due to whatever circumstance.

Just a simple:

'your save is available, but you failed'
'your save is not available'

Feedback would go a long way.

Edit: I'll bet it's wonky times doing it!
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Nobs » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:09 am

Unless you like to gamble!

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Tarkus the dog » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:26 pm

Been enchanting for a past few days now ( or months, if I'm going to be honest here since I do it depending whether I have the gp for it or no ). I hate it, but what else are you to do with money in the late game. At 100% ( this is crucial, sometimes even 99.6 can significantly reduce your chances of success ) usually for me it's the second attempt ( When rounded up ). First try happens, sure, but second try is the default, I'd say. Failing 3 times in a row can happen, but 4th, or 5th, I think was my unluckiest streak so far ( 27% chance to succeed was the item ).

Anyway, I think enchanting may be tied to the old deity system, where the success rate is based around the gp sacrifice each deity gets. I'm using Jergal for enchanting, but something tells me if I switched to Mystra my bank account would look much better.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Sockss » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:04 pm

I'm pretty sure (very sure) deity choice doesn't come into it.

I'm also pretty confident that it'll be a date tagging issue, since time is probably the most prevalent thing that borks on Arelith. (Which better feedback would identify!)
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:07 pm

You know, I'm usually a huge proponent of documentation on tables and effects, but this entire thread just rubs me the wrong way and makes me more irritable as I go through it.

We have the server staff who has clearly in the past stated "The gods work in mysterious ways," but they've been nice enough to drop some hints, for a bonus system that throws us the occasional bit of relief when we roll poorly. I say bonus system because in D&D if you fail the crafting check and you ask the DM if your god saves the piece of gear for you, your DM should laugh at you.

This is one of those things no one should feel entitled to know. If you're going to the basin with the idea in mind that you've got this and you're going to godsave that piece of gear, then, well... unpopular words, but you are doing it wrong, and your character deserves to lose that piece of gear for being self-entitled with their deity.

The DMs do not want you to come up with a 100% pattern of identifying the gods' behavior in enchanting. You do not control or understand the gods unless they say you do. And if someone releases hard numbers tomorrow, I would expect them to be changed within a week.

You should be making every piece of gear as though you have a chance to fail (you do) and when you succeed where you expect to fail, you should be happy and let that momentous occasion reflect in your RP.

Choice of deity doesn't affect a build in any meaningful way- none of us are entitled to mechanical compensation for it. We don't deserve to know exactly how it works anymore than we deserve to know why some of our characters have been struck by lightning multiple times while others haven't.

It makes perfect sense, and it clearly is stopping people from gaming the system, because they don't know enough to do so if they're failing 35 times in a row. (Perhaps try some enchantments with a higher chance of success).

Crying foul that we don't understand how the chance works and that information is being kept from us when it's literally a "godsave" is, IMO, flawed reasoning.

The fact that this thread has devolved into arguing and cajoling with the one developer who has seen fit to attempt to share information they're allowed to with you in an attempt to either call them wrong or try to get more out of them seems ungrateful. Throwing statistics in their face and dismissing them is outright arrogance- if you don't understand how the system actually works and have context in which to apply it, your interpretation of statistics means nothing.

If I was the staff responsible for this section of code, I'd turn it off every time someone complained about how unfair it was to remind my players that the gods do what they please and if you don't like it they can just stop doing it entirely.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:21 pm

Since the 5% roll and dweomercraft has become the mechanical endgame on the server, we have to be sympathetic to the reasoning that there needs to be some information on how all of it works.

If this was a server of 10 years ago, where the idea that putting keen on a Masterly Damask weapon was like utter heresy, sure.

But it's exceptionally commonplace now to have ridiculously enchanted gear. Everyone and their mom participates in this new mechanical space (which is essentially a level 30+ zone of mechanical power) - interacting with these systems needs to be fun and engaging.

Never being entirely sure of what's going to happen isn't that fun and engaging.

Personally, I'm still confused by how it all works. I'm thankful for Discord because otherwise I'd be totally lost.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Xerah » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:38 pm

Sockss wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:30 am
From my testing, prior to your changes
My changes didn't really change very much regarding the code.

The old system has nothing to do with the new system.

Part of the goal of the enchanting system is to operate as a gold sink. That's why you're not told all the details. If the Admin team wants to give more feedback or details of the system, then that is their choice. I don't feel it's appropriate for me to offer much more.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:54 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:21 pm
Since the 5% roll and dweomercraft has become the mechanical endgame on the server, we have to be sympathetic to the reasoning that there needs to be some information on how all of it works.

If this was a server of 10 years ago, where the idea that putting keen on a Masterly Damask weapon was like utter heresy, sure.

But it's exceptionally commonplace now to have ridiculously enchanted gear. Everyone and their mom participates in this new mechanical space (which is essentially a level 30+ zone of mechanical power) - interacting with these systems needs to be fun and engaging.

Never being entirely sure of what's going to happen isn't that fun and engaging.

Personally, I'm still confused by how it all works. I'm thankful for Discord because otherwise I'd be totally lost.
I'm not entirely unsympathetic to this mentality, but I don't agree with it (surprised? probably not. :lol: )

All the godsave is is an extra (small) chance to succeed on a failed roll higher than 5%. Higher than is important- there's an actual formula based on 10,000 gold (without dweomercrafting modifiers) to calculate your percentage of success. A god save will never occur if that formula applied to your enchantment roll comes out to less than 5%, although you will still have a 1 in 20 base chance of success (5% being the smallest chance of success you can have on any actual enchantment roll, despite the formula).

If you removed the godsave completely, the exact same end-game gear you're discussing would still be available to everyone, it would just cost a bit more in the endgame market. The truly epic endgame gear you see is the gear enchanted after that 6% godsave roll. Stuff like Edit: +1 str +1 dex +1 con + 1 uni +2 disc + 2 spellcraft + 2 spot + 2 bluff. That extra +1 str was added on after someone godsaved on the +1 con, most likely - and it didn't qualify for a godsave on the last step, at all.

All understanding a god-save better than we already do would achieve is assembly-lining the process, which reduces its effectiveness as a gold-sink... and to be honest, I've seen some pretty entertaining superstitions IC based around trying to earn a god's favor for enchantment, that would become entirely unnecessary if everyone knew exactly how it worked. Basin fickleness is in fact something discussed IC at length and with vitriol between characters who make extensive use of them, in my experience- another little atmospheric perk that would be lost with hard knowledge.

One of my characters has been an archmage in their day that did enchanting commissions that wound up valuing over 800K gold an item in some cases, and I don't feel the system was so obscure as to require further explaining on a mechanical level beyond what's given in the formula posted in the Reference forum. I would be firmly in favor of adding that as a journal entry in-game in pursuit of the need nothing outside the game to play the game, however.

We have enough knowledge to work with- how often it happens, that higher piety presumably and sensibly triggers on a better chance, exactly how to determine if the item we're trying to enchant qualifies for a godsave at all, and that there's some form of RNG in the middle.

Of all the things we could be fine with a little mystery in, I don't understand why this can't be one of them - it's not like you're getting thrown off a horse every five minutes. :lol:


Edit: Here's that thread with the formula to determine if you can godsave or not. < 5% = impossible. 5% or higher = possible.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Subutai » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:14 pm

In some ways, I feel like we're going in the wrong direction with this topic. It's based a bit on the assumption that everything before the god save is good, and it's the opacity of god saves that is the issue.

To take Seven Sons' quote,
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:21 pm
Since the 5% roll and dweomercraft has become the mechanical endgame on the server...
I think a big part of the problem here is that the mechanical endgame of the server is, on all levels, pretty much a constant grind. You grind for materials, grind through the CP (or gold for someone else to do it), grind for the rune components, grind through the 5% enchantment. The whole thing is just a slog of farming and low probability rolls.

If we want to keep 5% enchanting and god saves, and keep them opaque, I think a better solution might be taking a step or two back and addressing the very MMO way of getting endgame gear on the server. For an RP server, I for one thing it's an absolute shame that getting end game gear requires so much grinding. I'd love to see alternatives, like end game quests that provide materials.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by NauVaseline » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:11 am

You don't really need the formula anymore. If it can potentially cost XP, you can't get a godsave.

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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Sockss » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:05 am

Xerah wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:38 pm
Sockss wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:30 am
From my testing, prior to your changes
My changes didn't really change very much regarding the code.

The old system has nothing to do with the new system.

Part of the goal of the enchanting system is to operate as a gold sink. That's why you're not told all the details. If the Admin team wants to give more feedback or details of the system, then that is their choice. I don't feel it's appropriate for me to offer much more.
So it remains 12 hours, yay.

It would also remain a gold sink, hidden mechanics or not, because you put in gold and have a failure rate.

Anyway that's fair enough, if you don't want to give away the time period officially.

Due to the way timestamps and timers work (not very well at all) and presuming the code uses those (highly likely given gs releases) can this be made more robust, or can we get that timestamp stripped on server crash/reset (more reliably if it's happening already).

While I can sort of understand hidden mechanics, as I too have played 30 year old games without internet access (albeit I don't agree with them, but that's just me and every modern game's developer I guess), what I don't understand is leaving something that clearly (to a very high probability) bugs (35 wasn't an exaggeration) and then passing it off as rng/hidden mechanics.
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Re: Enchanting Godsaves (Feedback)

Post by Nobs » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:19 am


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